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Commiting Force Dice with Darkside Force Pips

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This debate came up in our F&D session tonight.  If a FU activates a power, say Enhance - Brawn with a Darkside Pip, then commits Force to maintain the power, would the character be sustaining the power with the darkside of the force, so therefore take conflict each round?

 

The other debate was with the Bind Power.  Activating Bind with 2 light and 1 dark, then sustaining the power, are they sustaining the roll so therefore 2 white and 1 dark meaning 3 damage / round and 1 conflict per round?

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This debate came up in our F&D session tonight.  If a FU activates a power, say Enhance - Brawn with a Darkside Pip, then commits Force to maintain the power, would the character be sustaining the power with the darkside of the force, so therefore take conflict each round?

 

For that specific power, the entire action would just be committing the force die to gain the ongoing effect (of increasing your Brawn characteristic). So you couldn't say try and say you're activating the Enhance power to boost your Brawl attack, combining it with the Brawl check, and then after you deal damage, commit the force die to get the Brawn boost. It would have to be either/or. So you either spend the action committing a force die to boost Brawn, or you make the Brawl check with the force dice enhancement.

 

And in case you were wondering, no, you cannot commit to of the same effects of a power at once in a single action - ie. trying to commit a force die to boost Brawn as well as committing one to boost Agility in one turn is a no go; but you're free to spend 2 actions across to turns (or less if you've got the talents) to do both.

 

A more appropriate example would be trying to commit force die after the activation of Bind for sustain the ongoing effects (which is activated as an incidental after the power succeeds), in which case, no you do not get constant conflict if the die being committed had rolled darkside points. 

 

 

The other debate was with the Bind Power.  Activating Bind with 2 light and 1 dark, then sustaining the power, are they sustaining the roll so therefore 2 white and 1 dark meaning 3 damage / round and 1 conflict per round?

 

There's a little bit of a debate on this, but I'm pretty sure Duration only applies to the Immobilize, Disorient, or Stagger effects. Including damage, and even the critical effect, kind of puts the power into a position far above how powerful Unleash is. But if you used a darkside point for activation and went on to commit it to keep Immobilize going for instance, you would not take conflict each round beyond when you activated the power.

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Lathrop,

In regards to Conflict and using the Duration Upgrade for Bind, as a GM I'd rule that deliberately using the Force to cause lasting harm would generate Conflict points, ranging from 2 if the target has been actively trying to kill you or your allies all the way up to 10 for deliberate torture of the target.  But then I was one of those GMs in Saga Edition that would hand out Dark Side Points if a PC opted to maintain the Force Grip power on a sentient being past the initial round.

 

Luke used Bind to briefly choke those two Gamorrean guards so that he could pass in RotJ, but he dropped the effect as soon as they were no longer blocking his way, so he'd probably just get 1 Conflict for resorting to a violent action but nothing else since the effect wasn't maintained.  Contrast to Vader using Bind as a disciplinary tool; he's already at 0 Morality by that point, but a PC would earn 5 Conflict for the unprovoked assault in those instances and then another 10 if the Duration Upgrade was triggered, since at that point it's just another form of torture.

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...

 

And in case you were wondering, no, you cannot commit to of the same effects of a power at once in a single action - ie. trying to commit a force die to boost Brawn as well as committing one to boost Agility in one turn is a no go; but you're free to spend 2 actions across to turns (or less if you've got the talents) to do both.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Has there been a ruling on this? All I see under Committing Force Dice (p. 196) is that you can't commit to "two 'copies'  of the same ongoing effect."

 

Under Force Powers (p. 197) it says "Force powers might require Force power checks to activate temporary effects, or they could require users to commit Force dice to activate ongoing effects. Some might be able to do both. In any case, unless the power's description specifically states otherwise, using the power requires one action of structured time."

 

I believe the character's action is using the Enhance Power. If the character has 2 Force Dice then she may, as part of that one action, commit one Force die to Brawn and one FD to Agility.

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Has there been a ruling on this? All I see under Committing Force Dice (p. 196) is that you can't commit to "two 'copies'  of the same ongoing effect."

 

Here:

 

 

Sense Force Power

Question asked by Donovan Morningfire:

For the Sense power, could a PC with both the Ongoing Effect Control Upgrades activate them with a single Action, or would each Ongoing Effect require its own Action? I could honestly see this going either way, though I'm leaning towards the "single action to commit Force dice to each Ongoing Effect.

 

Answered by Sam Stewart:

Each ongoing effect requires an Action to activate (and you'd need the Force Rating to activate both as well).

 

 

In regards to using the power and then committing, I personally see that really only applying to most powers where the commit effect is from a Duration upgrade and whose descriptions tend to specifically say the whole "Commit [Force Dice] as an incidental after successfully activating the base power" thing. Otherwise - why the need to state it as opposed to the other powers?

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Thanks, that is disappointing.

 

I guess characters expecting trouble can just power up ahead of time, but it really makes it more like D&D.

I asked that question based on an pre-FaD response from Sam on an earlier set of Force power questions, since said earlier answer had said that a PC could activate a Force power or upgrade multiple times, even the upgrade didn't say you could do so.  Obviously with FaD that's been changed, and I suspect it'll be a change that will get added to the errata for EotE and AoR as well.

 

Seeing that I'm playing a Force user with both of those Sense Control Upgrades, I've learned to pick my battles as it were, and sometimes just settle for having the defensive upgrade active (even if it's my first Action of the combat) and then saving the combat check upgrade for when I really need it.  Although if I know the fight is coming and I've got some prep-time, such as our last session which had my PC engaging in a duel with a pirate lord using a lightfoil (style points for hiding it as the handle of his pimp cane), the results can be pretty impressive, since for my Lightsaber attacks I'm pretty much adding a Proficiency die (Agility 3, Lightsaber 2) and I've got a rank of Dodge from Ataru Striker as well as two ranks each of Parry and Reflect... I got a funny feeling the next duel that Valin gets into will be facing off with a bona fide Inquisitor.

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Has there been a ruling on this? All I see under Committing Force Dice (p. 196) is that you can't commit to "two 'copies'  of the same ongoing effect."

 

Here:

 

Sense Force Power

Question asked by Donovan Morningfire:

For the Sense power, could a PC with both the Ongoing Effect Control Upgrades activate them with a single Action, or would each Ongoing Effect require its own Action? I could honestly see this going either way, though I'm leaning towards the "single action to commit Force dice to each Ongoing Effect.

 

Answered by Sam Stewart:

Each ongoing effect requires an Action to activate (and you'd need the Force Rating to activate both as well).

 

I'm not sure that question even really makes sense...

The Ongoing Effects in Sense are activated as either a part of another action (once per round on an attack) or in response to an Attack (also once per round).

You can't "activate" them in advance, they are really "when used" activations.

However, applied to another Force Power the question and answer make perfect sense (say both of Enhance's Control Ongoing Upgrades).

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I'm not sure that question even really makes sense...

The Ongoing Effects in Sense are activated as either a part of another action (once per round on an attack) or in response to an Attack (also once per round).

You can't "activate" them in advance, they are really "when used" activations.

However, applied to another Force Power the question and answer make perfect sense (say both of Enhance's Control Ongoing Upgrades).

 

 

You need to actually commit the dice prior to their use before they can take effect.

 

So for instance, both with Enhance and Sense, you can commit the dice whenever you want and then they apply to whatever they apply to (any skill checks involving Agility/Brawn, or any combat checks respectively). So much in the same way that with Enhance you can be channeling the force to beef up for whenever you need to be beefed up, you can likewise channel the force to be prepared for combat whenever it appears.

 

You don't get to wait until you're attacked to pop Sense's defense upgrades or wait until you attack to pop the attack ones - otherwise why even bother having to spend an entire action to commit them during battle?

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You don't get to wait until you're attacked to pop Sense's defense upgrades or wait until you attack to pop the attack ones - otherwise why even bother having to spend an entire action to commit them during battle?

Huh. Weird.

When I read the "Ongoing Effects" rules I didn't make the connection between "Activating a Force Power takes an Action" (which makes sense intuitively) and "Committing a Force Die" as needing to be an action (which seems to me to be counter intuitive).

With that ruling in mind it makes Sense a little less useful than I initially thought.

EDIT: Anyway, thanks for explaining it.  win_zps5a32fbb3.gif

Edited by evileeyore

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Since you can decommit dice at any time (more or less) you could always just declare that you always have that power active (when reasonable) as a passive thing unless otherwise stated.

True, but I know several GMs have treated such a thing as "constant disturbance in the Force" and thus more likely to bring you to the attention of hostile Force users that have a reason/desire to wipe out other Force users... such as Inquisitors hunting for "Jedi renegades."  Or even Force users that are consumed by the dark side and don't want competition on what they might perceive as their "turf."

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I can get behind some of what Dono says.  Although sense probably less so, seeing that it's fairly passive.  But the disturbance in the force aspect is something to keep in mind. 

 

Also, some of the on going effects are noticeable.  The one that springs to mind id the misdirect blurr that adds threat to combat checks.  certainly noticeable in a crowd for sunday brunch.

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Lathrop,

In regards to Conflict and using the Duration Upgrade for Bind, as a GM I'd rule that deliberately using the Force to cause lasting harm would generate Conflict points, ranging from 2 if the target has been actively trying to kill you or your allies all the way up to 10 for deliberate torture of the target.  But then I was one of those GMs in Saga Edition that would hand out Dark Side Points if a PC opted to maintain the Force Grip power on a sentient being past the initial round.

 

Luke used Bind to briefly choke those two Gamorrean guards so that he could pass in RotJ, but he dropped the effect as soon as they were no longer blocking his way, so he'd probably just get 1 Conflict for resorting to a violent action but nothing else since the effect wasn't maintained.  Contrast to Vader using Bind as a disciplinary tool; he's already at 0 Morality by that point, but a PC would earn 5 Conflict for the unprovoked assault in those instances and then another 10 if the Duration Upgrade was triggered, since at that point it's just another form of torture.

 

I would respond in a similar fashion.

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"constant disturbance in the Force"

Seems like an odd interpretation.

 

 

Indeed. It's punative in a purely metagamey way -- just because some passive effect is represented by comitting a Force die instead of having a passive talent (for arguably game balance reasons alone) doesn't mean it translates into the narrative on a one-to-one basis.

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"constant disturbance in the Force"

Seems like an odd interpretation. Well, whatever.

 

Well, the PC is constantly using the Force, which has been described as having a ripple effect, with the more you use the Force in a given area or the more potent the effect, the bigger the ripple caused.

 

By having one or both of Sense's Ongoing Effects, the PC is constantly using the Force in anticipation of danger, and thus a constant source of ripples, not unlike constantly throwing a bunch of small stones into a lake over the course of several minutes, with only a few seconds' gap between when each stone hits the water; the ripple persists and actually gets a little bit bigger with each stone thrown.

 

To someone that's Force-sensitive and trained to hunt Force users, that constant ripple is going to stand out.

 

Ultimately, it's an in-universe explanation put in place by GMs that don't want the party Force user to be constantly walking around with the power being "on" all the time, much as some GMs frown on the party wizard in D&D having all sorts of magical effects from their spells active all the time.

 

If you as the GM don't have a problem with a player having Sense's Ongoing Effects be active from the time they wake up to the time they go to sleep, than you don't need to worry about it.  And if you're a player and your GM is fine with that same situation, that's fine too.

 

Personally, I'd see it as rampant paranoia, and might even consider assigning Conflict (no more than a point or two) for surrendering to your fears.

 

Besides, you get that Vigilance dice pool high enough (particularly if you also invest in the Foresee power), and you can be fairly certain of getting the first action, and thus having Sense up and running before the bad guys even get to act.  And you might even have some extra defense too while you're at it.

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Plus from a certain point of view, if someone is constantly keeping combat powers activated at the ready, he's not being passive.  I would rule that the player is actually being aggressive and would start to award conflict for the aggressive nature of his stance

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Since you can decommit dice at any time (more or less) you could always just declare that you always have that power active (when reasonable) as a passive thing unless otherwise stated.

True, but I know several GMs have treated such a thing as "constant disturbance in the Force" and thus more likely to bring you to the attention of hostile Force users that have a reason/desire to wipe out other Force users... such as Inquisitors hunting for "Jedi renegades."  Or even Force users that are consumed by the dark side and don't want competition on what they might perceive as their "turf."

 

 

Honestly, I think it probably works this way too. That is why I would rather be able to bring up a full power in a turn rather than walking around ready for a fight. Also, a down side is you end a power at the end of your turn, so you can't switch a die from one power to another until a subsequent round.

 

It is not a big disturbance, but I think Force users know when other Force users nearby are using the Force unless it is something like the Shadow talents to hide. That is how they recognize each other, not with blood tests. One or maybe two committed dice are not too big a deal, but high level F&D characters could potentially have a lot of dice committed, and would be glowing in the Force (if Light Side).

 

That conception might have come from the old d20 SW rules.

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Could be an extension of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Opening yourself to sense the Force could change it the same way examining an atom changes it position or energy. The minute changes to the Force could be sensed, explaining the sensation of a ripple effect. Would also mean that you could Sense them Sensing you.

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Could be an extension of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle. Opening yourself to sense the Force could change it the same way examining an atom changes it position or energy. The minute changes to the Force could be sensed, explaining the sensation of a ripple effect. Would also mean that you could Sense them Sensing you.

I'm not saying it can't be applied but just for clarity, the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle essentially says that the more accurate the measurement of one complimentary variable, the less accurate the other must be. The most common misunderstanding of this is that it is the perception itself somehow affects the parameters involved. But rather, it is, as it applies to particles, the need to reflect light or other particles off the particle you want to measure that results in the inaccuracy. But whether or not that measurement is perceived has no effect on the result.

Anyway, as long as we're on pseudo-scientific nonsense, I think the Force makes the most sense as the result of symbiotic, telepathic, hive-minded bacteria. "If you want to grow strong in the Force, you'd best eat your yogurt, youngling." Anyway...

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Anyway, as long as we're on pseudo-scientific nonsense, I think the Force makes the most sense as the result of symbiotic, telepathic, hive-minded bacteria. "If you want to grow strong in the Force, you'd best eat your yogurt, youngling." Anyway...

Have I ever mentioned you need to die in a fire.

The same fire I'll be burning Lucas' Neckbeard and midi-chlorians in...

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Anyway, as long as we're on pseudo-scientific nonsense, I think the Force makes the most sense as the result of symbiotic, telepathic, hive-minded bacteria. "If you want to grow strong in the Force, you'd best eat your yogurt, youngling." Anyway...

Have I ever mentioned you need to die in a fire.

The same fire I'll be burning Lucas' Neckbeard and midi-chlorians in...

You only see that kind of reaction from someone who doesn't want to admit how much sense it makes. Come, join me on the Dark Side.

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