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Rakaydos

Morality options, Starting sith, and the Balance of the Force

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However, these suggestions have no place in the published rules and thus no place in a beta test forum.

First, you don't get to decide what does or does not deserve discussion. Second, the Morality mechanic implies that this is not actually true at all; although "murder-hobos" are well outside anything the Morality mechanic is designed to handle. Third, the beta book actually includes those rules specifically *for* characters who are drawn to the Dark Side, not because they're not supposed to go over to it. Finally, the originating point of the thread is that if you don't want to start Dark Side, -20 is a roleplaying quirk not an advantage worth losing the alternatives. If you do want to start Dark Side, -20 doesn't really do what you want.

 

There are very few posts I dislike so much that I'm annoyed that the forum has a "like" button but no counterpart. Yours definitely made the list.

Edited by T3CHN0Shaman

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If they do use darkside points so does that mean the gm uses the lightside destiny points against them?

 

Could get confusing especially if the darksider player is trying to hide their true nature from the other players at the start of the game.

 

 

Try to think about the darkside destiny points as less of things that make things harder for players, and more of just things that happen in a story/life that make things weirder/more interesting - basically what the GM is supposed to do. And lightside destiny points as just when things just happen to go right when they probably shouldn't otherwise. So think of it less as "lightside = only good use" and "darkside = only bad use" and more as just "Lightside = Player Points" and "Darkside = GM Points".

 

 

Hiding a darkside player is more of just a thing you have to separate between in-character and out-of-character knowledge. Obviously you could keep some things secret with some GM-player note-passing, and hiding dice rolls, but with things like the Destiny Points, you'd be hard pressed to be able to keep it a secret from the rest of the group out-of-character for long, even if you managed to restrict yourself to lightside points to fuel force powers through most of your downfall. As for in-character stuff, you'd have to find some way to get your character to constantly sneak off and do whatever they need to do, or the rest of the group would have to simply not care (which would be a fair bit of inaction conflict).

 

In all, it'd likely be slightly similar to how things happened in Prequels - rest of the group knows through out-of-character knowledge (shifting of destiny points more frequently) that something is up, but they can't act until they actually see it for themselves in-character. You know, except hopefully the darkside player will be a little less angsty, mopey, creepy, and whiny.

Edited by Lathrop

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Okay so matter if your character is light, dark or grey you make use of the light side destiny points.

 

So being a dark sider has an automatic penalty woven in, whilst the light side may grant a bonus but there should be a restriction involved to mirror their darker alternate.

 

I was thinking instead of strain have setback dice instead for any checks not involving combat or intimidation, for the light side those setback dice should be used when they try intimidation or violence as these aren't areas they should be prone towards given they should be the opposite of their brethren of the darker type.

 

Grey have that Morality dice so they veer towards neutrality until they either fall to the dark or ascend into the light and lose their previous special ability as a result.

 

I still have a lot to learn about this.

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I'm trying to think of the benefits of forgoing the extra xp and credits, for light-side it is obvious that one is a short step away from being a Light-side paragon, and the benefit it entails.

 

Yet there are benefits for being a darksider right out of the gate. It's more than just the darkside aspects of Bind, Unleash and Harm, but it is the ability to use the force without real consequence. A darkside player, as others have pointed out, only uses Black pips on force dice. However, the penalty for converting light pips to dark pips is merely strain and a destiny point, as conflict is not really a drawback for dedicated darksiders. It means that a dark-side user can throw the force around much more often, as long as the strain threshold is there to keep up. Quicker and easier this path is...

 

Granted, a good point is raised as to why one wouldn't just take the extra gear and then suddenly actively earn gobs of conflict to go darkside. within the first session. I think that question remains unanswered...

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So, because of the way the dark side works in this system you have to get all the way back up to 70 to redeem yourself after a fall.

So, why not just let a player start at 50 but also be a dark sider already? If a character had fallen and then climbed back up to 50 they would still use the dark pips.

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So, because of the way the dark side works in this system you have to get all the way back up to 70 to redeem yourself after a fall.

So, why not just let a player start at 50 but also be a dark sider already? If a character had fallen and then climbed back up to 50 they would still use the dark pips.

As long as they dont get gear as well- as pointed out,  taking "the quick and easy path" has it's own advantages to compensate for the loss of gear.

 

I just want the Dark option to actually give me something. Preferably quick and easy.

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Hmm. So let me try to sum up. There are 5 possible bonuses. Money only, Money and XP, XP only, Cusp of Light Side Paragon, and Cusp of Dark Sider.

 

The money and xp options are all pretty standard. All give you a little something extra to define your character.

The two morality choices don't actually give you anything, but just make it so you get it at the end of the first session.

Light Side Paragon takes at least a few sessions to get if you are good. Dark Sider, due to RAW, is achievable in the first session on its own.

 

So sounds like 2 things need fixed:

1) The two morality traits need to give you something real at the time of character creation. Just let them start out on the side of the line they are shooting for. You can pick Paragon, Darksider, or Money/XP.

 

2) Some bottom needs to be set on the conflict you can achieve in one session, the same way there is a cap. I am ok with falling being faster than rising, but it should not be bottomless.

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They want to be a dark sider their Morality starts at 30 and if they want the bonus xp or money then it goes up 5 and 10 respectively.

 

For lightside they start at 70 and for that bonus xp or money it goes down 5 or 10.

 

Still don't agree about the Strain penalty as I think setback dice explain this better.

 

Is there another name for a Grey Jedi that doesn't include the word Jedi?

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So, because of the way the dark side works in this system you have to get all the way back up to 70 to redeem yourself after a fall.

So, why not just let a player start at 50 but also be a dark sider already? If a character had fallen and then climbed back up to 50 they would still use the dark pips.

I might allow this. Obviously, by RAW they won't get the WT bonus, but they can still use DS pip for free, and they still corrupt the destiny pool.

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Hmm. So let me try to sum up. There are 5 possible bonuses. Money only, Money and XP, XP only, Cusp of Light Side Paragon, and Cusp of Dark Sider.

 

The money and xp options are all pretty standard. All give you a little something extra to define your character.

The two morality choices don't actually give you anything, but just make it so you get it at the end of the first session.

Light Side Paragon takes at least a few sessions to get if you are good. Dark Sider, due to RAW, is achievable in the first session on its own.

 

So sounds like 2 things need fixed:

1) The two morality traits need to give you something real at the time of character creation. Just let them start out on the side of the line they are shooting for. You can pick Paragon, Darksider, or Money/XP.

 

2) Some bottom needs to be set on the conflict you can achieve in one session, the same way there is a cap. I am ok with falling being faster than rising, but it should not be bottomless.

The light side option does effectively grant you something- about 4 sessions of average rolls on the conflict die.

The dark side option, on the other hand, gives you 2 murders. worth of conflict.

 

Light side is fine, as it grants you something of real value. Dark side.... not so much.

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The Beta Update #4 is in, there's been a substantive change to the benefits of being a Darksider. If your morality is below 20, in addition to -1 to the strain threshold, a dark side user gains +1 wounds. Below 10, lose one more strain, gain one more wound. So a morality of 10 has a darksider with -2 strain, but +2 wounds.

 

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/force-and-destiny/support/Beta%20Errata%203.pdf

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The Beta Update #4 is in, there's been a substantive change to the benefits of being a Darksider. If your morality is below 20, in addition to -1 to the strain threshold, a dark side user gains +1 wounds. Below 10, lose one more strain, gain one more wound. So a morality of 10 has a darksider with -2 strain, but +2 wounds.

 

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/force-and-destiny/support/Beta%20Errata%203.pdf

Which raises the stakes, but doesnt change the game.

The light morality choice is worth 4 whole session of angelic lightside play.

The dark morality choice is worth 2 murders.

This is not balanced.

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I had a player once (friend of a friend and a real burro) that wanted to be dark side (saga).  He said, "I want to go dark!" and so he killed a dude on the street, pulling him into an alley.  We gave him some dark side points (2 IIRC, for just a senseless and brutal killing) and moved on. 

 

This, apparently, was not fast enough.

 

So, later in the session, he wandered to diner, and killed every patron in there.  Just slaughtered them all.  And I just sighed and said... "Fine.  You've gone dark.  Can we move on?" 

 

Needless to say, he didn't really play much after that. 

 

If this story taught me anything though, people who really want to go dark, will commit the atrocities needed to get there.  at the speed they desire.  At least in my experience.

Edited by Thebearisdriving

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Well, the rules aren't supposed to cater to players who just want to go dark side, they're supposed to make it something of an interesting struggle to avoid going to the dark side. We can't expect a system that covers all sorts of play styles, after all.

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Well, the rules aren't supposed to cater to players who just want to go dark side

Taken from here

One thing we’d like to mention is that a lot of you have expressed opinions about the option of starting with a lower Morality, specifically that the assumption is that starting with a lower Morality is strictly “bad,” and it should come with a beneficial tradeoff or not be an option at all. However, when we came up with these starting options, one of our design goals was to not assume that everyone would want to play light side Force users (even though we’d like to think most of you play “good guys”). Instead, we had to assume that some people would want to play dark side Force users, and that this was a perfectly reasonable choice for them to make. In this case, any reduction of Morality in exchange for credits or experience would only be a boon for someone who was going to push his or her Morality as low as possible as fast as possible.

Their conclusion diverges from their initial point, in my opinion, but otherwise I think this rather firmly refutes your statement. Edited by T3CHN0Shaman

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Okay, I guess you're right, but I still mean that noone can expect the rules to cover the most extreme cases of evil characters, since it has to be able to pose a challenge to more "normal" characters as well.

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Okay, I guess you're right, but I still mean that noone can expect the rules to cover the most extreme cases of evil characters, since it has to be able to pose a challenge to more "normal" characters as well.

*shrug* You're barking up the wrong tree here. I have never understood the obsession with making morality part of the Star Wars mechanics.

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Okay, I guess you're right, but I still mean that noone can expect the rules to cover the most extreme cases of evil characters, since it has to be able to pose a challenge to more "normal" characters as well.

it's called "the quick and easy path" for a reason...

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@ hilstad

 

I strongly disagree. The game is designed around the Star Wars Universe NOT morality. Take a look at EOE, we play all kinds of roguish type characters and work with/for criminal organizations. All the games are supposed to fit and work together by design not force players into a single style of play (get your head out of the West End Star Wars game) as a matter of fact its your heroic good only style of gaming that is, as you put it "outside the intent of the rules".

 

EOE introduces the Rogue, Anti-Hero style of play and characters, AOR Introduces the Heroic Noble style and characters, F&D must cover both sides in order for all three games to be truly compatible which is the stated intent of the game designers.

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