Questions about Jan Ors (crew)

[jdob 3]

Kyle (HWK)
At the start of the Combat phase, you may assign 1 of your focus tokens to another friendly ship at Range 1-3.

 

Garven (X-Wing)
After spending a focus token, you may place that token on any other friendly ship at Range 1-2 (instead of discarding it).

 

Jan Ors (crew)
Once per round, when a friendly ship at Range 1-3 performs a focus action or would be assigned a focus token, you may assign that ship an evade token instead.

 

Recon Specialist

When you perform a focus action, assign 1 additional focus token to your ship.

 

 

= Question #1 =

Based on the wording, it sounds like Jan can help convert Kyle into an evade factory instead of just a focus one. Both use the word "assign", so it lines up.

 

Garven is more literal using the word "place". Does that mean the focus doesn't qualify to be turned into an evade? It feels similar to the distinction between "suffer damage" and "deal a damage card".

 

 

= Question #2 =

If a ship using Recon Specialist uses a focus action, since it is only once per round Jan would only kick in for the action itself, not the added "assign 1 additional", correct? So you'd get either 2 focus or 1 focus and 1 evade?

 

 

Thanks 

[Buhallin 4,563]

Strictly speaking I think you're right that Garven is different, but I expect that it's not a real difference.  We don't have strict definitions for the difference between "place" and "assign", and it's possible that placing a token counts as assigning it.  I expect that it's probably just a change in terminology, and would tend to allow it, but I'd ask the TO or clear it with your opponent first.  There's definitely room to object there.

 

#2 is pretty much correct.  You could trigger Jan off either the initial focus or the bonus from Recon Specialist, although I can't think of any case where it would matter.

[jdob 3]

I wondered if it was just a change in terminology thing myself. As an older card, it's possible they weren't quite as settled in on the terminology yet.

[Smuggler 556]

Garven is very interesting, allso note that the rules for taking the focus action doesn't use the word assign either, they allso talks about placing a focus token.

In an other thread I did a thought experiment with Farrel trying to get both a boost and a barelroll from tha same focus action, and in that thread people did put weight to the difference between assigning and placing a token to stop that kind of shenenigans.

 

[edit - Confused Farrrel with Farlander]

Edited September 27, 2014 by Smuggler

[Marinealver 8,073]

Reading way to much into it if you decide that place is DIFFERENT from assign because the word might be different but the effect is NOT!

 

FAQ 2.1 pg 11.

 

Garven Dreis. A ship may be assigned a focus token from Gaven Dreis even if it has already performed a focus action.

 

Pretty clear to me place = assign. This is why I detest rule lawyers aka word lawyers they try to argue one word to their benefit even if the game was clearly designed against it. How is it different from placing a focus token or assigning a focus token? It is not, there is no rule saying before you assign a token you have to do a double back flip while singing "The Star Spangled Banner" and then set the token down to separate assigning from placing. That is utterly ridiculousness, and anyone who argues over that choice of word has stooped to that level.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Marinealver

[DR4CO 6,234]

Reading way to much into it if you decide that place is DIFFERENT from assign because the word might be different but the effect is NOT!

 

Acquiring a Target Lock and performing a Target Lock action have the same effect (ie. you get a Target Lock), yet they are totally different things. It's not an outrageous question to be asking, and certainly doesn't deserve such outright hostility.

[StephenEsven 632]

Only the action part is different. The action lets you acquire a targwt lock. Just like certain abilities does

[jdob 3]

It's not like I'm bringing this up in a game and "rule lawyering" you. You complain that I'd be doing it for my benefit, but we're not actually playing a game right now. It's a forum specifically about rules and I'm asking about wording.

 

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in where I see a potential difference, because you seemed to react very strongly to just the word "place". I suppose my question was more in the word that follows "place":

 

"you may place that token"

 

*that* token, as in, the token that was just spent by Garven, which is a focus token. I could see the rationale that the token doesn't leave the board and therefore does not qualify to be turned into an evade, whereas assigning a new focus token gives you the chance to instead bring an evade on to the board.

 

Again, I look back at "suffer damage" v. "deal a damage card". Deal a damage card bypasses the normal damage workflow, so it's possible the intention was that "placing that token" similarly bypass the assignment workflow and wouldn't qualify to be changed.

 

Maybe it doesn't.

 

It's still very possible it qualifies to get turned into an evade token. I honestly don't have any stake in either interpretation; I don't play tournaments where the correct answer could decide the difference in some sort of prize. I was curious from an academic standpoint, so I came to a rules forum to ask.

 

You might want to take a deep breath and step away from the game for a bit if a theoretical question upset you so much. Your back flip rule comment wasn't called for.

[StephenEsven 632]

I wondered if it was just a change in terminology thing myself. As an older card, it's possible they weren't quite as settled in on the terminology yet.

After looking in the rulebook and FAQ, I find it quite clear that FFG uses the terms place and assign to mean the same thing.

The FAQ for Garven was mentioned, and rhe card text uses place and the FAQ text uses assign

But even the rulebook alone states on page 9 that to acquire a targwt lock you place the tokens next to the ships ans that a ship can only have one blue target loxkbtokeb assigned to it.

[Parravon 5,217]

I absolutely hate to assume anything, but in this case I think it's fair to assume that "placing" and "assigning" the token are the exact same thing. There is no way I would rule against someone if they used Jan's ability on the recipient of Garven's "placed" token. That seems to me to be the way it's supposed to be used, regardless of wording.

[jdob 3]

Parravon, I agree. I think it's interesting that it could mean something different, but I also wouldn't argue against someone trying to change it to an evade.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

[Smuggler 556]

Place and assign are the same, see mail answer from Frank below.

It looks like he missed my interpretation of how that would effect Jake Farrel, I might do a follow up question on that.

 

----------------------------------------

 

Hello Henrik,

 

In response to your rules question:

Rule Question:
Is there a difference between "assign" and "place" a tooken?

The core rules for the focus action tells us to "place" a focus tooken near the ship that performs the action.
Garven Dreis can "place" a focus he spends on an other ship.
Kyle Katarn can "assign" one of his focus tookens to an other ship.

Where does it mater?

Jan Ors (crew)
Once per round, when a friendly ship at Range 1-3 performs a focus action or would be assigned a focus token, you may assign that ship an evade token instead.

If place and assign are different, then Jan can not convert a focus that Garven "places" to an evade as it was not assigned.


Jake Farrel
His abillity triggers of performing a focus action or being assigned a focus tooken. If place and assign are the same, he can both boost and barrelroll when he takes the focus action, once for being assigned the tooken, and once for performing the action.

Best regards,
Henrik

 

The “place that token” is the same as “assign that token.” Garven is the only instance of “place,” but it is the same.

 

Thanks for asking,

 

Frank Brooks

Associate Creative Content Developer

Fantasy Flight Games

fbrooks@fantasyflightgames.com

[StephenEsven 632]

I don't think you need ro do a follow up question.

The once per opportunity would prevent yoy from triggering the ability twice for placing a focus token as part of a focus action.

You coukd get a boost or barrel role from your focus action and the the other from Garven or Kyle assigning you a focus token though.

Edited September 29, 2014 by StephenEsven

[dbmeboy 807]

The once per opportunity would prevent yoy from triggering the ability twice for placing a focus token as part of a focus action.

I don't think it would.  There are 2 opportunities there: one for taking a focus action and one for assigning a focus token (which is the result of taking the focus action). 

 

Basically, Frank missed that there's actually one other use of the term "place" when referring to focus tokens beyond Garven... in the rule book.

 

That said, I'm sure the ruling will be that you can't do it.

[Smuggler 556]

That was how I saw it as well dbmeboy, and I agrea the likley answer is still that Jake can not do that. I've asked for a clarification on that one any way as I can not actualy justify that conclution by the rules.

Perhaps his card should not have mentioned the focus action at all. Just being assigned a focus token would have covered taking the focus action as well.

[DR4CO 6,234]

Perhaps his card should not have mentioned the focus action at all. Just being assigned a focus token would have covered taking the focus action as well.

 

Would it? I don't have the rulebook in front of me, so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the action doesn't actually "assign" you the token, and that wording is reserved for getting it outside an action.

[Smuggler 556]

 

Perhaps his card should not have mentioned the focus action at all. Just being assigned a focus token would have covered taking the focus action as well.

 

Would it? I don't have the rulebook in front of me, so I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the action doesn't actually "assign" you the token, and that wording is reserved for getting it outside an action.

 

The ruling from Frank I posted earlyer in this thread says that "place" and "assign" are the same. So I would say the focus action assigns you a focus token even though the rule book says you "place" it.

[StephenEsven 632]

 

The once per opportunity would prevent yoy from triggering the ability twice for placing a focus token as part of a focus action.

I don't think it would.  There are 2 opportunities there: one for taking a focus action and one for assigning a focus token (which is the result of taking the focus action). 

 

Basically, Frank missed that there's actually one other use of the term "place" when referring to focus tokens beyond Garven... in the rule book.

 

That said, I'm sure the ruling will be that you can't do it.

 

Maybe it is just my way of logic (working with digital stuff) that tells me that if one or the other is true then the ability triggers. If both happen then the ability triggers. I don't check one condition and trigger, then check the other condition then trigger again.

[Smuggler 556]

I think it's a mater of how sequential you view the proces as.

 

It is either:

1. Initiate focus action

2. Assign focus tooken

3. Resolv any ability triggered by assigning focus tooken.

4. Focus action compleated.

5. Resolve any ability triggered of performing focus action.

 

Or:

1. Perform focus action fully.

2. Check if any trigger conditions where fullfilled.

 

If we consider a simmilar case with Expert handling (EH) and Push the Limit (PTL):

1. Initiate EH

2. Perform barrel roll action.

3. Trigger PTL.

4. Do action from PTL.

5. Receive stress from PTL.

6. Receive stress from EH.

 

or:

 

1. Perform EH fully, netting you a stress.

2. Trigger PTL, however it can not resolv fully as the stress prevents the action.

 

The former sequence was ruled as correct in an other discussion here recently. That indicates to me that the more sequential order is the correct one.

 

That said, I find it unlikley (though not imposible) that the intent is to allow Farrel to both boost and barrel roll when he perfomrs the focus action.

[Parravon 5,217]

If Jake performs a focus action, it's not creating two opportunities. Check the rulebook, guys. It says: "To perform this action, you place one focus token near the ship". So performing the action IS the act of assigning or placing the token (regardless of which word you use). If he did his focus action, he could do his BR/Boost, and if he was assigned one from someone else, like Garven, he could do it again (but not the same free action, obviously).

[dbmeboy 807]

Likely solution will end up being that place does not equal assign and that Garven will be errata'd to assign (or perhaps just Word of Frank'd into working to avoid actually publishing the errata... similar to the turret issue).

[AtillaTheFun 82]

It doesn't matter anyway because Jan can only trigger once per round. The "or" between the two triggers doesn't mean you get an opportunity for each trigger, it means that either one of those events can be the trigger. It's structured grammatically such that there's no way to interpret it as once per round when this happens and once per round when this happens. It's once per round, when this trigger happens OR when this trigger happens, do this. Or is a logic condition and it does not give you both opportunities.

Also, if Jake's ability was meant to give you the option of doing both a boost and barrel role they would have written it like that. Not with this convoluted double counting of a focus action just because Frank said yeah place on Garvin is equivalent of assign.

[Smuggler 556]

My follow up question:

 

Thank you for your answer. However I do have a follow up question regarding Jake Farrel. Would it be possible for him to both boost and barrel roll when he takes the focus action? The way I see it there are two opportunities for his ability to trigger in that case. Once for being assigned a focus token (as part of the resolution of the focus action) and once for the focus action itself.

 

The answer:

 

No. Being assigned a focus token is a distinct idea from performing a focus action. “Are assigned a focus token” right now only works with Garven and Kyle. 

 

Thanks for playing,

Frank Brooks

 

So that's a negative on dubbledipping Farrel.

[Buhallin 4,563]

No real surprise there. I do think that it would trigger twice, per a technical reading, but the answer on this was never really in doubt.

[Parravon 5,217]

But Jake doesn't trigger twice. Jake can't perform a focus action without placing a focus token. So, you can't separate the "performing" part from the "placing" part to create two triggers.