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Magus Black

Character Creation/Abhumans/System Failure

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Now this may be a strange topic but I’ve recalled many people (live and in the forum) that have made statements on wanting to play as abhumans in Old Heresy, and after playing with it for a while I found a an irritating issue:

 

Its impossible to play as a abhumans with the current system.

 

Now that may sound a bit out there as there actually ‘is’ a way to it but it would it be just a very roundabout way of giving Characteristic Modifiers without actually calling them that…which is supposedly against the whole design concept of eliminating Characteristic Modifiers in the first place.

 

Take the Ogryn for example, ridiculously strong and tough but dumber than  a box-of-rocks, and clumsy a hell. Now how can you represent that with the current system without Characteristic Modifiers?

 

You can try the highest/lowest dice method, but this has several problems. For starts with just the added/removed dice does nothing to prevent rolls that too good/bad at representing the accurate-stereotype (an Ogryn with 22 Strength/Toughness and a 40 Agility/Intelligence). You could, as a simple additive remove one dice from the Negative Stat and roll an extra dice and keep the best 2 out of 4; but you can still get a good stat from 1 dice (10) and can still roll crap for your Positives (2).

 

Now instead of just granting and additional dice rolled to Strength and Toughness you could make it so that you ‘kept’ one more dice too, raising the maximum to 50... But that creates an ‘exception to the rule’ and is also a ‘roundabout Characteristic Modifier’ and just like the above paragraph, doesn’t stop the fact that even if you add one more dice to equation bad rolls will be bad rolls (and the difference between 22 and 23 is laughable).

 

Considering how dissatisfied many people were with the ‘somewhat’ nerfed Ogryn in Only War, one can imagine the irritation of having a Ogryn being either Space-Marine light jack-of-all-stats or weaker than a grot.  

 

And I haven’t even gotten to the mess Unnatural Characteristic would cause this system.

 

…And…I’m rambling aren’t I? -_-  This is what I get for juggling three projects with little sleep, so I’ll skip to the point.

 

If you cant play an abhumans in New Heresy then it cuts off not only options for future material for this game line but also means that future game lines will have its restrictions as well. As much as some may hate it, Characteristic Modifiers are the only ‘solid’ thing that shows a significant deference between characters (relying on just plain random numbers is simply insufficient), and tossing them out entirely will just create more problems than it solves in the long run.

 

If someone here can prove me wrong here and show its possible without ‘ad hoc modifiers’ or mass deviation from the rules as written, I will relent and concede the matter.

 

…and just get another annoyance off my chest it still drives me up the wall that "not Chirurgeon, Chirurgeons" are still a thing! :angry: 

 

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If you cant play an abhumans in New Heresy then it cuts off not only options for future material for this game line but also means that future game lines will have its restrictions as well.

That is some leap imho, FFG has proven in the past that they are versatile and open minded (e.g. I never expected to be able to play DE or Orks in RT, never.)

 

While it would be fun and flavourful (not to mention create many awkward RP moments) to play as abhumans, the game's focus has always been on human/human interaction.

 

We may see abhumans in an expansion but I won't hold my breath. :)

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"I can't play a giant lumbering ogre using just the core book of my investigative mystery game! System doesn't work!"

 

There's a lot to criticize DH2 for, but the core book not having unusual human subspecies (you know, MORE unusual than people born in space or half-machine cyborgs) isn't one of them.

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The +/- are converted to +5/-5 on the base when using point buy system for characteristics, you can just house rule that you use that for rolling dices instead of this 3d10 thing. Then an Ogryn could have ++ on str along with other pluses and minuses as you see fit.

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"I can't play a giant lumbering ogre using just the core book of my investigative mystery game! System doesn't work!"

 

There's a lot to criticize DH2 for, but the core book not having unusual human subspecies (you know, MORE unusual than people born in space or half-machine cyborgs) isn't one of them.

 

I agree, altough ratlings would fit better in an inquisitor's warband as spies, snipers, saboteurs, investigators and of course cooks! Especially since the askellon fluff mentions a few world popualted by ratlings.

 

I hope we get some splatbooks soon.

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I hope we get some splatbooks soon.

 

 

We already know the first book is the adventure one, then the next will be the Inquisitor's handbook likely unless they're following the Tome outline which would be cool because one for each ordo would be nice.

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Yeah, this seems to be an issue of "but rolling dice for something ruins character concept!" when the solution is right there. Don't make a series of 8 rolls determine a huge amount of your characters effectiveness for the rest of the game. Just use a point buy system and be done with it. The power was in your hands all along, you never realized it!

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The kind of GM who is married to having to roll for stats is probably not going to care about bad dice rolls causing an ogryn to have low toughness and strength scores. If they do care about one but not the other, that is a good place to try convincing them of the error of their ways when it comes to randomly rolling stats.

The basic argument is:

"Does it seem right to you to roll a die once at the beginning of the game that gives you +10 or -10 to every roll you'll make in the future? Because that's what random rolling for stats is."

If the GM wants new players to quickly generate characters, I can see doing random rolling, but the players should be allowed to go back and do point buy after they learn the game a bit.

If a GM thinks it's more fun for character generation to be unfair and forcing people to play what they roll, make the above argument and consider a different GM if it doesn't work, because they may have an incurable case of grognardia.

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the error of their ways 

 

There is no error of ways here. If the GM seriously cares that badly then they'd have come up with ways to deal with the issue before it ever came up. There's always rerolling the entire statline, I've yet to see a GM say no to that. If a player's concept doesn't fit stats then the player should think about how attached they are to that concept and if changing that concept really hurts the game/their fun that badly. If the GM is upset their concept is ruined for what they wanted  a player character to have then they should rethink their concept or make an NPC that fits the role. That or write a book about the characters he wants around.

 

If the GM wants new players to quickly generate characters, I can see doing random rolling, but the players should be allowed to go back and do point buy after they learn the game a bit.

 

 

 

Players don't have to be allowed to do much of anything to be fair. This issue should be sorted out well before characters are even conceived when people are discussing what they want to play, who they want to run it, and how that runner wants to run it. New players learn by experience, letting them remake characters any which way they want is silly. If anything, I'd let them just make a new character that isn't the same thing they previously roll. Personal preference to be fair.

 

If a GM thinks it's more fun for character generation to be unfair and forcing people to play what they roll, make the above argument and consider a different GM if it doesn't work, because they may have an incurable case of grognardia.

 

 

It's not always an option to just find a new GM. It's not even unfair, it's just a different way to play the game.

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I'd love to see a direct quote of that if I said it somewhere.

 

What I did say was that the player should think about it, if they really have that much of an issue then they should obviously discuss it with their GM.

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I'd love to see a direct quote of that if I said it somewhere.

 

What I did say was that the player should think about it, if they really have that much of an issue then they should obviously discuss it with their GM.

 

 

If a player's concept doesn't fit stats then the player should think about how attached they are to that concept and if changing that concept really hurts the game/their fun that badly.

 

Remember kids, if you don't roll high Strength, maybe you shouldn't have had your heart set on playing Arnold from Pumping Iron. Better change it to fit the dice.

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Remember kids, if you don't roll high Strength, maybe you shouldn't have had your heart set on playing Arnold from Pumping Iron. Better change it to fit the dice.

 

 

Should think about is not the same as should do it. They can still want to be arnold to be fair, their character may just have to hit the gym a little and spend some xp, and get some vat muscle...and steroids.

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Hm, Eldar might be nice, come to think. Real ones, not the druchii knock-offs we already have rules for :P

 

I was listening to the Grimdark Podcast durring one of the interviews and apparently they wanted to save Craftworld eldar for after they made deathwatch as a whole game of it's own, but they ended up going with Black Crusade and the idea never got around to being done.

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Hm, Eldar might be nice, come to think. Real ones, not the druchii knock-offs we already have rules for :P

 

I was listening to the Grimdark Podcast durring one of the interviews and apparently they wanted to save Craftworld eldar for after they made deathwatch as a whole game of it's own, but they ended up going with Black Crusade and the idea never got around to being done.

 

Makes sense, i suppose. Still, Eldar craftworld in the new sector has me hopeful :D

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Remember kids, if you don't roll high Strength, maybe you shouldn't have had your heart set on playing Arnold from Pumping Iron. Better change it to fit the dice.

 

 

Should think about is not the same as should do it. They can still want to be arnold to be fair, their character may just have to hit the gym a little and spend some xp, and get some vat muscle...and steroids.

 

Except it doesn't work that way. Even if you spend all the xp for maximum Str advances you can still end up lower than somebody who just rolled well. the moment you pick up the dice you have to admit you might not end up playing the character you want, and that IMO sucks.

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That has already been a possible issue in DH1 - and it's one in any other game that uses random stat assignment. You've just got to work with your GM there. And if they don't agree ... well, there's nothing you could do about it.

 

When random stat assignments are presented as the default, I am actually of the opinion that you ought to roll first, and then have a week to come up with a character concept that fits to those results. I think that could turn out to be a lot of fun, if you aren't too dead-set on a single very specific idea!

 

Alternatively ... pointbuy. Though I'd "mix it up" a little by inserting a variation of a single d5 per stat, just so that the characteristics don't end up looking too artificial.

Edited by Lynata

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Well...I only say that a non dictatorship-group probably talks about which way they want to go. Both concepts have advantages and neither is bad.

 

If you roll the dice, you lay your character choice in the hands of chance. Which can be fun as you might come up with a unique and new concept for utterly confussing stats, but I have seen some nice chars been created this way.

 

I for myself prefer the point system, as my group needs to be run equally. Everybody has a strong idea about what he wants as a character, points are there the only way to ensure a equal start and stats for the character the player wants.

 

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I find the idea of sourcebooks for every ordo very good and hope they go this way.

 

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On topic of abhumans: I think it would be possible to build them...if you want to roll, you can modify the rolls made or the ground stats...if the ogryn has bad luck and only str 30 well...maybe he is a weak ogryn but for that unnatural intelligent for his species...after all as roleplayers we have the opportunity to not play stereotype characters but eccentrics ;)

 

If I would want to allow adhuman characters, I would change there base attribute value before rolls or points are assigned. It seems to be the easiest way and every camp can work with it. For equality's sake the total sum should stay the same and I would not change it by more than 10 points. That could get annoying for the GM, but that is all up to you ;)

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