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FFG_Sam Stewart

Beta Update 2

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For the Zabrak, perhaps take the sub-species route as done with Aqualish and to some extent the Gand (lungs or no lungs)?  Such that Dathomorian Zabraks (like Savage Oppress and Maul) get the Fearsome Appearance trait, but the Iridonian Zabraks (like Eeth Koth) get the Boosted Awareness trait?

 

Was thinking the same thing when I saw the new Zabrak stats, although, honestly, I don't recall ever coming across Zabrack being notably observant, so something else might more sense for the Iridonians. Not sure what, though.

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I think we really should get some guidance on handling group resources in situations where you mix games. As a Mentor would REALLY be good for a force user but is useless to the non force using members of the party. And the other members of the parties resource is not necessarily helpful to the force user. 
I think the guidling should be something along the lines of picking a resource from each book. 
IE you get the ship from edge. The Base from AGe and the mentor from F&D. or some such. 

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Mentor and holocron changes are interesting.  Holocron could save 50xp if a character builds both those skills to 5, mentor could save 55xp if a character picks up all 11 (currently existing) force powers.

 

Given that force users are a massive XP-sink, it makes sense to me to give them a little help is a force-user dominant game.

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The thing I don't like, is that the assumption in F&D is that everyone is Force sensitive, so everyone could benefit from a mentor.  With the career skills from a holocron, you may not get any benefit, as you might already have both career skills. 

 

Maybe put in a firm suggestion that the GM should strive to make sure everyone gets at least one bonus career skill from a holocron once everyone's careers and specializations are determined.

Except in a purely FaD game, everyone is Force-sensitive since all the careers give you Force Rating 1.

 

And besides, the group generally has to agree on which resource to take, and for some FaD groups they may want to have a starting ship instead of a holocron or mentor simply because the ship provides more adventure options in terms of where the party can go.  If it's a mixed group of EotE, AoR, and FaD PCs, then the GM should put all the various options on the table (EotE starship, AoR Rebel resource, etc), or they may just decide to go with an EotE or AoR themed game and just use those resources.  I'm playing in such a mixed group, and the GM elected to use the EotE option, providing a slightly modified YT-1300 as our group resource even though half the group was using AoR careers/specs.

 

I got a feeling that for mixed games, the FaD characters are going to be in the minority, and if the group goes with a majority vote, odds are slim that they're going to get to pick the Mentor option as the EotE/AoR characters are going to find more value in having a ship or using Base of Operations (or even the Homestead/Place of Business from Far Horizons).

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The thing I don't like, is that the assumption in F&D is that everyone is Force sensitive, so everyone could benefit from a mentor.  With the career skills from a holocron, you may not get any benefit, as you might already have both career skills. 

 

Maybe put in a firm suggestion that the GM should strive to make sure everyone gets at least one bonus career skill from a holocron once everyone's careers and specializations are determined.

Except in a purely FaD game, everyone is Force-sensitive since all the careers give you Force Rating 1.

 

And besides, the group generally has to agree on which resource to take, and for some FaD groups they may want to have a starting ship instead of a holocron or mentor simply because the ship provides more adventure options in terms of where the party can go.  If it's a mixed group of EotE, AoR, and FaD PCs, then the GM should put all the various options on the table (EotE starship, AoR Rebel resource, etc), or they may just decide to go with an EotE or AoR themed game and just use those resources.  I'm playing in such a mixed group, and the GM elected to use the EotE option, providing a slightly modified YT-1300 as our group resource even though half the group was using AoR careers/specs.

 

I got a feeling that for mixed games, the FaD characters are going to be in the minority, and if the group goes with a majority vote, odds are slim that they're going to get to pick the Mentor option as the EotE/AoR characters are going to find more value in having a ship or using Base of Operations (or even the Homestead/Place of Business from Far Horizons).

 

Which is why I think there should should be some guidelines and advice for GMs for mixed groups. 

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Guys, there WILL be guidelines for mixing groups. The AOR beta didn't have anything about using AOR with EOTE, but the AOR Core Rulebook did.

 

It just seems silly to think that they wouldn't include a section on using all the games together in the F&D Core Rulebook.

except that those guidelines were for using Duty and Obligation. It does not talk about the group resource. Which is what we are asking about here. 

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Guys, there WILL be guidelines for mixing groups. The AOR beta didn't have anything about using AOR with EOTE, but the AOR Core Rulebook did.

 

It just seems silly to think that they wouldn't include a section on using all the games together in the F&D Core Rulebook.

This is FFG.  After some of the silly decisions involving their LCGs I'm not going to forward them any credit on not doing something nonsensical.

 

 

 

*Yes, I do understand those might be two different divisions in the company.

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For the Zabrak, perhaps take the sub-species route as done with Aqualish and to some extent the Gand (lungs or no lungs)?  Such that Dathomorian Zabraks (like Savage Oppress and Maul) get the Fearsome Appearance trait, but the Iridonian Zabraks (like Eeth Koth) get the Boosted Awareness trait?

 

Ya I would prefer this too. While I would like to play a Character with the new Zabrak rules it really locks them into one stereotype presented by what? Two characters?  

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I'm not sure how much I like that the new nemesis (master) has a krayt dragon pearl in his saber.  In the fiction, that's one of the most rare crystals possible, and as an NPC... I dunno.  Bothers me for some reason.

 

Kill him and take his stuff! Sorry, I just really want that Kyrat Dragon Pearl. 

 

Yay to the Holocron; I might even pick it over the ship, now. Boo to the Zarbak. I'm genuinely hoping that they use a takeback on that one.

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I'm not sure how much I like that the new nemesis (master) has a krayt dragon pearl in his saber.  In the fiction, that's one of the most rare crystals possible, and as an NPC... I dunno.  Bothers me for some reason.

 

Kill him and take his stuff! Sorry, I just really want that Kyrat Dragon Pearl. 

 

 

i think that is my concern.  I mean, the GM can reasonably deny players loot through despair and other mischief/fiat, but I just don't like that an NPC (a weak one compared to an inquisitor or some such Nemesis) has such a rare and potent core to his/her saber.

 

Not really much of an issue, but that could easily be a modded ilum crystal instead, and it would bug me less... probably my own hang up.  carry on, carry on.

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Fortunately, my players don't have a copy of the book, they would have no idea what kind of lightsaber the master uses so I can easily say it's an Illum crystal. But you bring up a darn good point. It's one of the reasons why I don't throw baddies using disruptors at my players. I just don't want that caliber of weapon in my game, at least not until they PCs are using comparable weapons themselves.

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and a disrupter is just a fancy gun, not a super duper rare crystal.  

 

I figured out what bugs me.  it cheapens the crystal, the effort a player would need to get one if the NPC's just have that kind of item, rather than a more conventionally modded item.

 

To make a D&D/Pathfinder analogy, it's like if a 5 level anti-paladin had a +2 vorpal sword, instead of a +2 flaming sword.  the effect in combat is about the same 19 out of 20 battles, but it just seems in appropriate.

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Another question on the Mentor.

 

Does the XP discount still apply if the group is no longer able to access their Mentor?  For instance, the Mentor has been taken prisoner by another force, or he's had an Obi-Wan Moment and is no longer amongst the living; i.e. is now an ex-Mentor and playing for the choir invisible?

 

I know the text in the book says the Mentor hangs around and can interact with their former students via dreams and visions, but not sure if I'd still allow the XP discount.  After all, it's not clear how much (if any) training of Luke that Obi-Wan was able to do once he'd died.  If he could train Luke, then not much reason to wait three years before sending the boy to go see Yoda.

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Personally I think I'd rule that if the Mentor was still around as a Force Ghost or interacting with the party through dreams, the XP discount would still apply.

 

I might even rule that if the Mentor had been captured or just died, rather than becoming a Force Ghost, the party might still gain the XP discount, just to keep the bookkeeping simple.

 

The way I see it the spiritual effects of the Mentor's existence as a ghost or in dreams could easily be said to improve the Force user's ease of learning powers. And even if they were dead, you could say the Mentor had taught or influenced the Force users in such a way that their future Force training would be faster or more efficient.

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Ooh, I just read the Mentor. That means I could get all eight (of the 1 Force Rating) powers for 45 points! At extremely low levels of effectiveness! What a deal! 

 

Or, perhaps: What, a deal? 

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Does the mentor bonus only apply to one that the group starts with, or can one found during play also give the discount?

I'd say that's up to the group and GM.

 

As the Mentor is a starting group resource and therefore special one could argue that it should only apply to the starting group resource, but then: holocron and starships... a starship is always a starship, so I'd consider it at least. I'd consider making a list of what force powers the Mentor knows though - it's not specified in the rules as far as I know (going off what you guys write, my book was shipped last night), but I'm not sure every Mentor knows every force power. For ease of play I get that the discount is across board, but for a Mentor found during play (but also the starting resource really), I would consider making a list of which force powers he can teach at a discount. Do all the force powers cost the same? or are some more expensive? In this case you could perhaps reduce the cost of some of the expensive ones, but keeping the others discount free. This whole notion of providing discount and career skills (holocron) opens a whole new wing of this fantastic manor that is the FFGSWRPG. I like it.

 

 

If you haven't watched The Clone Wars the Mortis story arc and/or season 6 aka "The Lost Missions" (Yoda's pilgrimage) and intend to do so, what comes below could be considered to contain spoilers (if you're real pedantic about it :ph34r:):

 

As for the needed presence of the Mentor, I'd think so. If it's a force ghost thingy, well, then you can largely control when and what powers he shows the players. When it comes to Kenobi and Luke, it's a bit touch and go and poorly explored territory. We know Kenobi was taught by Yoda to communicate with Jinn after Ep III - or at the very least was taught the basic exercises of how to get there. We also know that Jinn by Episode 2 was still aware, or had regained enough awareness of the physical world (this isn't properly covered anywhere as I recall, perhaps the Mortis episodes?) to witness Anakin's slaughter of the Sand People. There's about 10 years in between episode 1 and 2, we cannot assume he used ten years to regain consciousness anymore than we can assume we was back straight away after being skewered by Maul (despite Kenobi's rather fast reappearance at the end of Ep 4 at least in Luke's head - how long was that? a day? two days? 6 hours?), both would be purely speculative and silly. We do however know that Jinn never gained the ability to become a proper Ghost, he admits as much to Yoda (which is also why I think he used more time than both Yoda and Kenobi to reappear/regain consciousness - even Yoda used the larger part of a film to do it :ph34r:). We know that Obi-Wan did gain the ghost ability, and had becomes a ghost by the beginning of Episode 5, which is considerable shorter than 10 years after he died (it's about 3 years). But from my own interpretation of the introduction of Kenobi's ghost, I'd think the snowstorm on Hoth wherein Luke sees him, is the first time Luke has seen Kenobi since the Death Star. At this point - however this ghost thing works - Kenobi uses this first opportunity (as far as we know) to send Luke off to Dagobah to train under a live, flesh and blood master. I guess Kenobi could teach Luke, but I also think that a live master is more useful and ... effective. Sure Kenobi communicated with Luke before that, by voice at least - but those seemed more like reassuring messages, not a communication as such, nor conveying very complicated content. This is not really meant as an argument against using ghosts as a Mentor though... :ph34r: I mean Jinn did teach Yoda, at least to start on the path to IMMORTALITY! If not the power itself, but on this we also know very little of how the force works, how are force powers taught? How easy is it to figure out for oneself and yada yada and all that. Another reason for why Kenobi might've sent Luke off to Yoda, other than it being Yoda (and Kenobi being a ghost), could be Kenobi's utter failure with Anakin. Shame, self-esteem issues, self-loathing, regret, all that stuff could also play a part in it.

 

If the book opens for mentors being ghosts/spirits, then I'd say the discount would apply, but the presence and frequency of meetings, teachings and lessons provided are much more up to the GM, as there is no "conjure force ghost" force power (and I don't think any force ghosts would teach anyone that power if it existed). Basically I'd not just apply the discount just because, but as part of in-game events and lessons.

 

Now, if the group gets a live Mentor, and this guy or gal is captured and imprisoned by the Empire (or any other faction powerful enough to do that), I'd probably say that until freed the discount is suspended; unless of course there's a good rationale for why a player's character should still get it: be it because of training regimes, exercises, teachings and lessons already provided either as part of backstory or in-game.

I guess the holocron and Mentor are both avenues for the GM to more or less control or guide the players choice of force powers, if the GM so chooses (this should be in agreement with the group of course). I mean, for instance playing off the "blood lines" crap that was introduced with Corran Horn, perhaps some Mentor won't be able to teach you Move at all, or at a higher cost even, but instead you get Misdirect or Influence and/or some other power at a 5XP discount, not only for the base power, but perhaps one or two of the 10 XP upgrades (should be decided upon when buying the power, and the two cannot be the same upgrade type - and perhaps not connected vertically?).

Edited by Jegergryte

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Does the XP discount still apply if the group is no longer able to access their Mentor?  For instance, the Mentor has been taken prisoner by another force, or he's had an Obi-Wan Moment and is no longer amongst the living; i.e. is now an ex-Mentor and playing for the choir invisible?

 

Let me broaden this one:  who actually owns the shared party resource (ship, base, mentor or holocron) -- the GM or players jointly?  This is actually a social contract question.  I would argue that given the way it's presented, as part of character creation on par with personal gear and everything else about a character, that it falls into the category of the latter. Remember that GM has full authority over the fiction he introduces (which is sizable), but anything which encroaches upon the players' property is generally subject to negotiation per the social contract -- those are their fictional "game pieces."  When the players choose the holocron or mentor, they're not just choosing a Rubik's cube or a surrogate father -- they're also choosing to compensate for not having as many career skills as their EotE/AoR counterparts or offset the considerable XP costs of learning the Force.

 

So given the proper context, the answer is an obvious "yes."  You shoud still get the XP discount even if your Mentor is behind enemy lines or is recently deceased at the exact moment you spent it.  It's easy to rationalize:  the day you get the gainer down cold is not the same day you started gymnastics. Also, dead Mentor is a thing, after all.  Same goes for the holocron:  sure, you left it back on the ship for safekeeping, but you were studying it during the last trip through hyperspace.

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