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Seanamal

Is this cheating? Or simply extraordinarily poor sportsmanship?

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If I was Player A and was in casual play, I would make a case that what Player B was saying was unfair since they are clearly a friend of mine.  If I was in a tourney, I would just walk away from the table saying I am done as the person is unreasonable and I don't play leisure games for fun with unreasonable people.  Life is to short.

 

Out of curiosity: shouldn't this be the other way around? ie. wouldn't one be more willing to walk away from a casual game with no stakes, rather than one at a tournament you (presumably) paid to enter?

 

 

I play casual games with friends.  My friends are worth my time or I would not be friends with them and if I say "that's inappropriate", they will consider if it was a inappropriate or not.  I am also more than okay spending time vigorously discussing with my friends why I think they are being inappropriate. (note, original draft used stronger language than "inappropriate")

 

At tourney, its at best an acquaintance and at worse a stranger.  I am not really invested in the person and if that is the way they play the game, I don't want play with them.  Its not worth the argument and I am not having fun playing them.  Also, a couple of dollars and the potential to win some cardboard and plastic isn't really a major incentive for me to put up with that type of bull.

 

That being said, I am getting fond of a number of people that I frequently play at the local tourneys, probably wouldn't have them over for diner but would get a drink with them.

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Ok a little more info. Player a pointed out when asked to remove the token that he was going to recloak after firing. Playber B repeated his demand that the token be removed. Player B claimed he never heard player A say he cloaked. Also player b used some real weird slow play tactics. Like going all the way down to player A's deployment Zone before k turning ( they were setup on opposite sides of board)

 

That type of play is pretty valid.  Maneuvering so that you have an advantage during the 1st round of fire is an important part of the game.

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i say player b is cheating if it was declared as cloaked even in a tournament when are all human and forget to place tokens i have ven done it my self on focusing my ships. which the group i play with we try to give some leeway to each other for human error.

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WUSIWUG, What you see is what you get.

 

There are too many things happening on the table to remember if the other person did declare a cloak or not. After two or three games, seeing many phantoms, I cannot remember if it is cloaked or not. I have forgoten to cloak or take focus or something, if it past the time to declare and you did not, you lose it. The last tournement report had the runner lost (IMHO) because he let the other person cloak after other ships have moved. Casual games, or new players, I will always let you take an action if you forget. Not in tournements.

 

Put the token on, I remember watching a game and one of the players did not put any tokens out on the table. During attack resolution he said he was going to use a focus to help him evade. But none of his models had tokens, NONE. He said he never puts them out it is just assumed that he always uses focus so he never puts out tokens. The TO declared that with no tokens out he chose no actions for his ships. The tokens are there no only to stop cheeting but to keep people honest. "Did I already use that token last attack or do I still have it" moments. Easy - if there a token there use it, if there is no token you cannot use it.

 

Its WYSIWYG.

 

And no, it's not cheating, but just being a jerk (not really poor sportsmanship, just not nice). He declared the cloak, give him the token and move on. This happened at the top table at GenCon; the opponent was a true sportsman and let his opponent cloak when he mistakenly forgot until just before it mattered.

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This happend in a tourney I was at recently.

Player A is flying echo with acd. After decloaking and finishing his maneuver he leaves cloak token on table about 10 inches away from echo

Player B insists he remove from table altogether.

Player A complies with demand

After resolving Echos attack player a declares recloak but neglects to put token back by ship.

Player B then declares that echo is uncloaked as no token is on him.

In my mind Player B is essentially cheating by creating a situation that benefits him through means other than play. What's your opinion?

 

I'd say it meets the "essentially cheating" concept even if it may not meet the letter of cheating.

 

What I want to know is how much happened between Echo decloaking and shooting.  It seems to me like Player A decloaked and after doing so "removed" the token even if it did not entirely clear the board.  Assuming not too much else happened that Token was right there again to easily add again after Echo fired using ACD.

 

If I were to cite a "rule" Player B "broke" it would be harassing the opponent into an error.  I'm guessing 99% of the people seeing the situation would have recognized the goal so asking the Cloak token to be completely removed seems a bit excessive although it may fall within the letter of the rules.  When Player B acknowledges that Echo "cloaked" but says "you didn't place the token so it didn't happen" that is what I'd call rules abuse and trying to force.

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Meh.  Forget everything i said.  Nuke 'em from orbit--it's the only way to be sure.

 

I regret to inform you that the Majority of the Intervacius-Raptus survived the LV-426 explosion.  The 100 megaton fusion bomb used during the earth invasion wasnt good enough to kill them off ether.

 

Your better of using Death Stars and other space-time busters.  Thats kinda the more sure way er...  **** it just leave the **** aliens alone.

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Players should be encouraging each other to fully removal all tokens/dice/templates from the field of play when not needed. Leaving stuff on the board is just asking for an issue to occur. TOs should be encouraging players to keep the play area tidy to prevent rules disputes over tokens/dice left in no-mans land.

Edited by ScottieATF

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If a player executes a red maneuver, and I insist that he place a stress token, does that mean I was trying to trick my opponent if he accidentally chooses another red maneuver on the next turn?

No, but if you deliberatly attempt to distract or trip up your opponent after he performs a red maneuver, hoping that he'll forget to place the stress token so you can exploit that mistake on the next turn, that would be cheating. From the way the OP described the event, it does make me question the situation.

I would let it slide once but let the phantom player know that he has to remember to place his tokens.

On the other hand, is there any reason he wouldn't cloak after attacking? I haven't played phantoms much, but it seems like a given that they'd use ACD at ever opportunity.

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Sometimes when you're in a good position and you're not in any arcs to be shot at in for the next two turns, you can stay uncloaked to use that sweet 1 hard-turn. 

 

If the opponent starts escalating rules shenanigans, start asking that he place number counters on all his ships, use the cardboard rulers instead of his fancy plastic rulers and that all dials be placed and revealed next to the ship. 

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I for one don't like a cluttered table, because it gets too chaotic and I might make a mistake, taking the opponent's dial or tokens, etc.

 

I had a game of 1 v 2 phantoms where there were constantly 4 cloak tokens on the table (he was using 2 + 1 extra), I had to constantly remind my opponent to remove them. I understand why player B would not want tokens on the table (those that shouldn't be). If you want to remind yourself to recloak, put the token in front of you outside the play area, or write it down (that's what I do).

 

This is even more important in games we're you're tired (nth round of the tournament), which could have been the case here. It would explain a lot of things about player B's behaviour afterwards.

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Frustrating to say at the least. Now player was correct to tell player A to remove the token. However player B should have also reminded him to put it back on. Now from your view it is impossible to tell if player A was trying to cheat or just new and forgetful.

I have seen blatant forms of cheating (barrel roll creep, damage deck stacking) for more tips mini-wargaming did a skit on the sad but prelevant issue. Me personally would have gave A the benefit of the doubt but continue to remind him to remove tokens as token tracking can get mixed up. I tend to forget which tokens I spent in the middle of combat phase.

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I've lost games because I forgot to place my cloak token, its why i keep it in my hand after using it. It needs to be on the table because in the chaos of a game we really cant go by what is said.

This. Whenever I want to shoot with Whisper (and I often have ACL and FCS on there), I've made a habit of just picking up the cloak, focus and target lock tokens up in my hand right away, along with the dice. The focus doesn't always go on there, but it means I never forget.

 

Yes, it does not solve previous douchebaggery, but it makes your games clean in the future, and the tokens are there to avoid these mistakes after all.

 

I have been on both sides of this though, including being thoroughly annoyed that my opponent ship suddenly getting TL/focus/evade in the shooting round, because they 'meant to'. I would personally never require any of my ships to suddenly have a token, because I failed to place it there in the first place, and that's been many a time.

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To be fair it is a tourney so you should be remembering your tokens as it is WYSIWYG

How ever player B here is being a *@#%

If your gonna ask for tokens to be removed from the board then at least saydon't forget to put it back on

Some people

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WUSIWUG, What you see is what you get.

 

There are too many things happening on the table to remember if the other person did declare a cloak or not. After two or three games, seeing many phantoms, I cannot remember if it is cloaked or not. I have forgoten to cloak or take focus or something, if it past the time to declare and you did not, you lose it. The last tournement report had the runner lost (IMHO) because he let the other person cloak after other ships have moved. Casual games, or new players, I will always let you take an action if you forget. Not in tournements.

 

Put the token on, I remember watching a game and one of the players did not put any tokens out on the table. During attack resolution he said he was going to use a focus to help him evade. But none of his models had tokens, NONE. He said he never puts them out it is just assumed that he always uses focus so he never puts out tokens. The TO declared that with no tokens out he chose no actions for his ships. The tokens are there no only to stop cheeting but to keep people honest. "Did I already use that token last attack or do I still have it" moments. Easy - if there a token there use it, if there is no token you cannot use it.

This is absolutely cheating. Was the opponent supposed to remember every one of this turkey's assumed actions. It's not rocket science to use a token. I find it hard to believe this clown was playing in a tournament like this. It's good to see that the TO ruled no token = no action. It's the only sensible way to rule it. If this guy was playing me, I would have demanded the tokens be there. I have enough trouble remembering what my ships are doing, even with tokens on them.

 

As for the OP, if I had heard player A declare he was recloaking, I'd have asked for the token. If we both missed the token, but still acknowledged the declaration of the recloak, he's cloaked. We'll remember next time. You've got to be a little flexible. I'm not the sort of player that's going to acknowledge his declaration to recloak and then deny it later because he forgot the token. That's a seriously uncool way to play. I don't think it a case of "fly casual", as more of a case of "fly fairly".

Edited by Parravon

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Clearly not cheating on Player B's part- - if anything Player A was trying to cheat.  No token means you can't discard it to uncloak, and the cloak effect isn't active.  The real question is whether Player B was being unpleasant or not, which depends:

  1. Had the Player A definitely said he was cloaking, after the attack?  I don't get how you can remember to say an action and not remember to use a token - they're both part of the action, I genuinely don't get how you can remember one and not the other, unless you're in the habit of not using tokens (or it's your first few games, but even then when you're learning to do actions at all you're learning that means putting a token down).  I believe that at the start of the attack he had every intention of doing it, as why wouldn't you, but it's very easy to forget to do it, especially if your opponent is rushing on to the next thing.
  2. Had Player B definitely heard him?  If he admits he did and he didn't remind him to put the token down at the time, then yeah, maybe he's being unpleasant.  If he doesn't admit he heard it, then you can't prove it - that's what tokens are for.
  3. Did Player A deserve it, or need a lesson?  If he was either being unpleasant himself, or repeatedly breaking the rules (eg by leaving tokens in the wrong place etc) then maybe Player A's action was warranted.  Like I said in point 1, not using the token now could be indicative of a habit of not using tokens.  If he's had warnings and ignored them then screw him.

Tokens matter.  Placing them at the right time matters, removing them at the right time matters, moving them matters.  It's very easy to forget what you did in the activation phase, it's easy to forget whether you spent the focus token two attacks ago, that's why we have tokens - so you don't need to remember.

 

Now, assuming Player A didn't deserve it (either through being an ****, or through repeatedly forgetting tokens despite warnings) then I think Player B was being a bit of a ****, as frankly I would always assume someone with ACD would cloak after their attack.

 

However, simply sticking to the rules, insisting people add and remove tokens when they should (and putting them, and dials, by the ships when in use and outside the play area when not in use) is certainly not indicative of being a ****.  Those rules aren't pointless - it makes the game better when people use those rules, and everyone should get in the habit.

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I'd let it slide the once. But I'd inform player A that from that point on, the token has to be used or no action. Who knows, maybe player B put a lot of effort trying to get to that tournament and takes the game very seriously. I myself in many friendly games have forgiven opponents for forgetting their actions, but in turn during the same game held myself accountable for my mistakes when told I could take an action that I had forgot. I hold myself to a standard that if I screw up, I pay for it. Its the only way to beat it into my head not to make those mistakes again. But because not everyone feels that way is why in competitive play I would let the first one slide, after that, game on!

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It's surprising how many "bad habits" are sneaking into gameplay. We've got a few very experienced players locally that have taught some newer guys to play, and the newer guys have some really dubious gameplay now. Has it come from the more experienced guys? I don't know. But I do know that I'm getting rather sick and tired of getting an evil look when I tell a player to do something "properly". Forgetting tokens is something I think most of us have done, and quite innocently, but when players are told repeatedly to do something correctly, I don't know whether it's just a "bad habit" anymore.

I had a couple of games over the weekend where two of my opponents (one new, one experienced) were both flying squads of ships with the same pilot skill. When it came time for activation, I sat and watched four dials get flipped at once. I said to my opponent "One at a time, so we both know what's happening". I got that "you're being a bit picky" look. Next was the holding the straight-2 template and the bank-3 over the Phantom before deciding which way to decloak and avoid the asteroid. I said "that's actually considered pre-measuring and you can't do that". 

The next game I got the same "flip all the same PS at once" thing, only this time the opponent was a bit more experienced. I said "one at a time" again, and he looked at me like I was speaking a foreign language. I mean, it's in the rules, right? Activate your ships one at a time. This was followed up with moving his ships by placing then 5-10mm past the end of the template.

I mean there's "bad habits" and then there's cheating. I don't want to be the rules police, but I want to play by the rules and I expect my opponent to as well. Am I asking too much?

Edited by Parravon

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I don't want to be the rules police, but I want to play by the rules and I expect my opponent to as well. Am I asking too much?

I'll be honest, I'm still amazed we're actually having discussions about this.

In every other game I've played, 40k, FoW, Warmachine, Malifaux, ect... It's simply accepted that you do things according to the rules. I'm not talking about bring a rules lawyer here, and trying to trip up the other guy with a gotcha, because you were 1/64th of an inch out of range, and Mars was aligned with Jupiter, and I'm wearing my official 40k skull badge...

I'm talking about preforming actions in the correct order per the rules.

You reveal your dial for a ship, not all ships of PS X, you move that ship, you preform an action with that ship, which includes putting any tokens that are part of that action on or near the ship. Then and only then does the next ship in order reveal it's dial, and go though that process.

Sure there's shortcuts that many of us take, and there is sometimes nothing wrong with it. Moving 4-6 Tie Academy Pilots and putting an evade or focus token on each one may very well be fine if the other person says that's what he's doing before hand.

But at no point should he/she assume doing so is the proper way to do things, or that they can just do it because it doesn't effect the game.

But again in X-Wing there are people taken Fly Casual so far away from it's intended meaning, that they think they don't actually have to follow the rules as long as they don't think it will hurt anything. That you don't even have to say something let alone ask if it's ok. No one should ever feel like they've done something wrong by asking someone to follow the procedure laid out in the rule book.

Edited by VanorDM

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Yes, the sad thing, is that whenever you want your opponent to follow the rules, you can be seen as a pedantic ****... because it is just a game.

 

Red Castle nailed it with the Lebowski reference.

 

About the OP case. I can't really tell, i wasn't there, but it sounds untrue (claim action, no token), and we don't know how the game went before that. Maybe guy A claimed to be cloaked before and player B was confused because he couldn't remember if it was true or not, and that's why he asked to remove the token from the table.

 

I don't know, most of this silly stuff are just missunderstanding in my experience, or people with a predisposition to think his opponent is being a dikchead.

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I guess I look at X-Wing as not "just a game". I see it as a contest of skill, strategy and tactics. And that's the same approach I take to all the various games I play. Most of the guys I game with are of a similar mindset, so it generally runs smoothly. But that doesn't mean I'm a win-at-all-costs type of player. My priority is to have fun. I've lost more games than I've won, but I've had fun playing, and that's what counts to me. There's a couple of WAAC players at our local club that can make playing a game completely unenjoyable, and that's even if I'm winning. I just don't play those guys anymore.

I taught a guy to play Epic Armageddon (Warhammer 40K, 6mm) and we had a few close games after a while. One day he asked if he could borrow 6 Thunderhawk Gunships for our upcoming game and proceded to fly them in like the Air Cavalry in Vietnam. It was something I didn't see coming and he totally crushed me from all sides, but it was one of the most enjoyable games of Epic I've ever played. We still laugh about it.

X-Wing is combining a lot of my favourite gaming aspects into one package, but it's the shortcut specialists that are slowly leaching the fun away from it. It has got to be the simplest wargame I currently play, but there are still players that either can't or won't do things right, even when you ask them to.

 

Just what is everyone's personal definition of "Fly Casual"? I enjoy X-Wing on a Saturday night with a few of the guys, having a beer and some pizza and razzing each other. We have fun, and that's why we play. The rulebook is rarely seen, as we all know what's going on. But we still play by the rules, and we generally play to competitive standards. It hasn't diminished the fun aspect in the slightest. That's my definition.

When "Fly Casual" is used to define a play style that is not in keeping with the rules, and sometimes borderline or blatantly cheating, I think it might be time for a different game.

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Sorry, the only requirement for an action is the declaration.  At that point, you MUST put a token down.  You cannot declare an action, then later "undo it" by neglecting a token, nor can your opponent "undo it" by the same means.  Neither can you "undo" a critical hit by failing to place a crit token down, or ignore damage dealt because you forgot to draw the damage card.  Finally, tokens and actions are NOT synonymous, so the cloak action occurred regardless of the presence of a cloak token, and the players are obligated to correct the gamestate once an error is discovered.

 

If an action is declared, it is performed.  Just like barrel roll.  You declared it, you do it.  Putting the cloak token down once it was discovered it was missing is mandatory on the part of both players in order to keep track of what action WAS ALREADY PERFORMED.  There are times when a cloak is not advantageous, just like there are times when it is, and neither player can later "undeclare" the action just because it suits them.

 

If there is some dispute about whether or not the action was declared in the first place it is a different story.  But based only on what the OP had to say (since that is all we have), it was mandatory that the token be placed by Echo and it doesn't matter whether or not it was forgotten earlier.

Edited by KineticOperator

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Off hand I would say because the player declared the action he's still cloaked, token be damned.

 

I'd also tell both players off for letting an illegal board state develop. It's just as much Player B's responsibility to ensure the game is played correctly.

Edited by DR4CO

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