Is this cheating? Or simply extraordinarily poor sportsmanship?

[Seanamal 116]

This happend in a tourney I was at recently.

Player A is flying echo with acd. After decloaking and finishing his maneuver he leaves cloak token on table about 10 inches away from echo

Player B insists he remove from table altogether.

Player A complies with demand

After resolving Echos attack player a declares recloak but neglects to put token back by ship.

Player B then declares that echo is uncloaked as no token is on him.

In my mind Player B is essentially cheating by creating a situation that benefits him through means other than play. What's your opinion?

[TheGreedyMerchant 255]

That player B is a firm believer in WAAC (win at all costs, yes I did put two As in it). I would call it poor form on player B's part.

Edited September 15, 2014 by TheGreedyMerchant

[charlarino 32]

Yeah definitely not flying casual, I'd forgive him the first time but if he continued, I'd just look for someone else to play with.

[tiefanatic 453]

That's cheating.

[jkokura 422]

I think he's right to the letter of the law, but I'm not a fan of that sort of legalism. If the guy declared it, it's done.

 

I would assume that Player B would also require a crit token to be placed on the pilot each time one happens. He should also insist that all the target locks be the same letter where applicable, even if there's only one target lock on the table...

 

Or perhaps he just insists on only the rules that benefit him. In which case, I hope the TO told him that the ship is cloaked, and he should stop being such a poor sport to his opponents. It's a game, it's supposed to be fun.

 

Jacob

[Revanchist 1,063]

Uh-oh. The S word; this thread may get interesting.

IMO, yes that's not very nice of Player B. In fact, it's almost as if he was setting Player A up so he could do that. If I were Player A, I might just call the TO over (at least so he can clear the air here; better safe than sorry).

[Far Wanderer 157]

WUSIWUG, What you see is what you get.

 

There are too many things happening on the table to remember if the other person did declare a cloak or not. After two or three games, seeing many phantoms, I cannot remember if it is cloaked or not. I have forgoten to cloak or take focus or something, if it past the time to declare and you did not, you lose it. The last tournement report had the runner lost (IMHO) because he let the other person cloak after other ships have moved. Casual games, or new players, I will always let you take an action if you forget. Not in tournements.

 

Put the token on, I remember watching a game and one of the players did not put any tokens out on the table. During attack resolution he said he was going to use a focus to help him evade. But none of his models had tokens, NONE. He said he never puts them out it is just assumed that he always uses focus so he never puts out tokens. The TO declared that with no tokens out he chose no actions for his ships. The tokens are there no only to stop cheeting but to keep people honest. "Did I already use that token last attack or do I still have it" moments. Easy - if there a token there use it, if there is no token you cannot use it.

[theaY 27]

If it is a tournament, it's Token or didn't happen. That's my opinion, anyway.

Intention is the issue here. And this is hard to capture without being there.

If the person said he re-cloaked, and both players heard and agreed, then even though the token wasn't there, I would have said (as the opponent), "ok, but please put the token there next time so we don't both forget."

But if the guys he cloaked, but the other person legitimately didn't hear/acknowledge that, then pretty much I'd have to rule that re-cloak didn't happen.

Basically, don't be a d**k intentionally to people when playing, but we all need to make sure we have tight play.

[Jo Jo 4,541]

Not cheating, but being a four letter word, yes.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Jo Jo

[dotswarlock 2,388]

Both are guilty, off with their heads !  But more seriously:

 

Player A could use a bit more rigor.  I've had players use their focus/evades/lock to change attack dices and then forget to take it off the play area, in which case I had to remind them.  If a player makes use of an ability to spends a token, removing it immediately goes a long way to avoid confusion down the road while keeping the game fresh and fun.

 

Player B could use more sportsmanship.  If, when the player declared the cloak, he had insisted that he place his cloak token back, then it would have been a lot friendlier.  There's nothing wrong with someone sticking to the rules, just as long as they don't solely focus on those that benefit him.

 

99.9% of us will never win back whatever we invested in the game, so winning at any cost should take 2nd place next to our primary purpose on having fun instead.

[Far Wanderer 157]

Not cheating, but being a four letter word, yes.

I would say a*hole if it was casual play. But tournement, you better know your ships and abilities.

[TasteTheRainbow 8,496]

He has lost track of the point of the game. I believe this happened at nationals finals but the guy was not WAAC-oriented, yes?

Edited September 15, 2014 by TasteTheRainbow

[EvilEd209 1,474]

Player B is cheating by intimidation, and it is a pretty dirty tactic to try to force his opponent in a 'slip of the mind' mistake only to then use it against them.  I hope that guy flies every one of his games perfect as to not have that thrown back in his face.  Because I know I would!

I myself make sure to audibly declare my actions in the event that I myself forget to add the token.  It happens all of the time.  And when I do end up forgetting to place a token and recognize it, 99 out of 100 times the player I am playing will acknowledge that I did indeed state my action, out loud, even if I forgot to place the token, and allows me to use the token.

Now, all of that being said...  and we all can agree that player be is a big Jackass, in a competitive environment such as a tournament, if you were to forget to place a token on a ship, it is not the opponent's obligation to permit you to use a token that was not placed.  FFG even has rules for this.  It is the player's responsibility to ensure all token are placed correctly and if you forget to place a token, it did not happen.  It is sad, but it is the truth and the letter of the rules.

Now this does not make Player B any less of a jerk, however, it is within the rules of competitive play. 

I myself would never, and will never, play the 'you didn't place the token so you don't get to use it' card.

Edited September 15, 2014 by EvilEd209

[VanorDM 11,599]

I'm not sure why player B asked for the token to be removed completely. But he is correct that it should be. Myself as long as it was clear that the cloak was removed, I'm ok, but yeah you really should remove the token as to avoid confusion.

The whole point of the token is that no one has to remember if an action was declared or not. You can't prove that Player B heard Player A say he was going to cloak again.

So while it sounds like poor sportsmanship on B's part, he wasn't cheating. We also don't know the full story so I'd say we shouldn't rush to any concussions about how sportsman like B was being.

[VanorDM 11,599]

and we all can agree that player be is a big Jackass

Actually we shouldn't all agree on that, because we all weren't there. Perhaps Player A was playing very fast and loose with tokens and such, and that's why B insisted on the token being taken off the table.

If I was playing against someone who used a focus token and slid it off to the side a bit, then latter in the same turn tried to use it again, and claimed "well I must of not moved it" and at that point I couldn't remember for sure if he already used it or not...

I'd start being a lot more insistent on things like removing tokens when used and such.

Not saying that's what happened, but we seem rather quick to judge someone based on 3rd hand info from a situation we weren't witnesses to.

[xanderf 6,483]

I'm not sure why player B asked for the token to be removed completely.

 

Presumably, because he was hoping (as it did) that it would trip the other player up.  If you are used to - for abilities you are going to be constantly using - just 'sliding the token away from the ship' (but leaving it on the map) when used, to make it easier to slide it back next turn...then being forced to remove it from the map entirely is going to mess up your cadence.

 

Same kind of thing as those 'play with your back to the sun, so the enemy has to deal with the sun in their eyes' or 'constantly ask your opponent questions while they are trying to plan their move' stuff.  Is it illegal?  Well, no.  But it's a poor way to play the game - trying to "beat" your opponent by distractions "outside the game" instead of beating them strictly by playing the game better.

[Red Castle 3,763]

Walter: Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is X-Wing. There are rules.

The Dude: Walter, you know, it's Smokey, so he forgot to put the claok marker, big deal. It's just a game, man.

Walter: Dude, this is a tournament game, this determines who enter the next round. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?

Smokey: Yeah, but I said I cloaked. Gimme the token Dude, I'm cloaking Echo.

Walter: (pull out gun) Smokey, my friend, you are entering a world of pain.

The Dude: Walter...

Walter: You put that cloak token on Echo, and you are entering a world of pain.

Smokey: I'm not...

Walter: A world of pain.

Smokey: Dude, he's your friend.

Walter: (shouting) Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a **** about the rules? Remove the token!

The Dude: They're calling the cops, put the piece away.

Walter: Remove the token! (Point gun in Smokey's face)

The Dude: Walter...

Walter: (shouting) You think I'm ******* around here? Remove the token!

Smokey: Alright! Echo's ******* uncloaked! Are you happy, you crazy ****?

Walter:... It's a tournament game, Smokey.

[EvilEd209 1,474]

 

and we all can agree that player be is a big Jackass

Actually we shouldn't all agree on that, because we all weren't there. Perhaps Player A was playing very fast and loose with tokens and such, and that's why B insisted on the token being taken off the table.

 

Ok, I do agree that since we all were not there, we all can not be completely sure of the events taking place.  That being said it was clearly presented here that Player B was the 'bad guy' of the story.  The twirling of his evil mustache was the dead give away.  

Edited September 15, 2014 by EvilEd209

[VanorDM 11,599]

Presumably, because he was hoping (as it did) that it would trip the other player up.

That's a rather large assumption. It may very well be true, but it still an assumption and we shouldn't be declaring people guilty based on assumptions and 3rd hand info.

[Alexrogen 9]

I've lost games because I forgot to place my cloak token, its why i keep it in my hand after using it. It needs to be on the table because in the chaos of a game we really cant go by what is said. In a casual game not a problem you cloaked, offical game, your not cloaked. I see it like this, and Im a Phantom player, there is a complexity to the play, a number of steps you have to remember if you want to get the results, if you forget something it costs you. Your oponent may take something simple, without a lot of steps because they know they are never going to remember all those steps, thats their choice, their tatical choice that matches their play style. You take a phantom and you have to accept the added complexity that comes with it.

However i do agree the guy was trying to get that result, but thats just part of the head game.

[EvilEd209 1,474]

Red Castle is my new hero!  I love the analogy! 

[TasteTheRainbow 8,496]

A good point Vanor, but that wouldn't apply to cloak tokens really. Unlike focus, both players are going to be very aware of whether or not that token was recently spent or added to the ship.

[Slugrage 4,994]

And that, kids, is why always put my tokens down, even on the very first turn, and remind my opponent continually to put (and remove) their tokens as they're declared or used.

[elfholme 117]

 

Same kind of thing as those 'play with your back to the sun, so the enemy has to deal with the sun in their eyes'

 

 

Do a lot of people play X-Wing outside where this is an issue?

 

If he heard Player A declare the re-cloak, Player B was a tool. As to the legality:

 

In the FAQ, Competitive Play section (p 9), it does state that "All tokens (other than shield tokens) must be placed next to the ship's base in the play area, and cannot be placed on ship cards." 

 

Okay, that's straightforward.  But what is the penalty for NOT placing the token?  This should be covered under Missed Opportunities.  However, all it says there around Actions is "If a player forgets to perform an action with a ship and play has proceeded to the next ship (a dial has been revealed, a maneuver has been executed, etc.), that ship loses its chance to perform an action."  That clearly didn't happen here.  Player A declared his action at the appropriate time.  There is a second item about forgetting to place a maneuver dial (bad) and the final item is "If a player forgets to declare a game effect during a specific timing window (such as declaring the target of Swarm Tactics at the start of the Combat phase), he may not execute that game effect at a later time."  That also didn't happen, as the recloak was declared at the appropriate time.

 

Do the Tournament Rules cover this?  What I see is the Missed Opportunities section, which states "Players are expected to play optimally, remembering to perform actions and use card effects when indicated.  If a player forgets to use an effect during the timing specified by that effect, he cannot retroactively use it without the consent of his opponent.  Players are expected to act with respect and not intentionally distract or rush an opponent with the intent of forcing a missed opportunity."

 

I don't see anything in the rules that states that an action doesn't happen if it is declared but the player doesn't place the token.  Yes, the token must be placed, but the penalty for not doing so isn't spelled out.  So Player B declaring that the effect doesn't trigger even though it was declared doesn't seem to fit the rules.  In fact, the scenario could be seen as Player B violating the Missed Opportunities section of the Tournament Rules, as he seems to be trying to distract his opponent into making a mistake.

 

If I were the TO, I'd warn both of them.  Player A needs to place his tokens, and Player B needs to not be a jerk and violate the spirit of the event.

[VanorDM 11,599]

both players are going to be very aware of whether or not that token was recently spent or added to the ship.

If that's true, then why have a token? Clearly the whole point is to keep track of what's going on. So we don't have to remember what someone did or didn't do.

The point about the focus tokens is more about someone attempting to cheat by confusing the game state, by only sliding tokens off to the side rather then taking them off the table. If someone is trying to pull something like this, I think what Player B did was completely reasonable.

 

If he heard Player A declare the re-cloak, Player B was a tool.

That's just it, we have no way of knowing if B heard or not, and we shouldn't assume he did and was just trying to pull one over.

 

Player A needs to place his tokens, and Player B needs to not be a jerk and violate the spirit of the event.

Again, how do we know that's what was going on? You're assuming Player B is being a jerk and violating the spirit of the event, with no evidence to go on. If you were the TO, you'd at least be able to hear both sides of the story, rather then what we have here.

This community seems to have a pretty mccarthyism like response to poor sportsmanship. We have people who have declared guilt based on a 3rd hand account of an event that none of us were at. I mean we don't even have Player A posting a story about what happens. All it takes is an accusation and it seems like a lot of people are ready to get out the tar and feathers.

Edited September 15, 2014 by VanorDM