Improved Parry: no use on a miss; does it work with Circle of Shelter?

[yeti1069 345]

So, I was playing earlier, and had 2 Despair to spend, but the attack against me was a miss, and therefore I didn't have to use Parry, and could not then use Improved Parry. Seems kind of odd to me that I can only riposte if I'm hit.

 

Another thing that came up was whether I could use Improved Parry when blocking an attack at someone else while using Circle of Shelter.

 

Finally, can I use Circle of Shelter to Parry an attack that the target (my ally) has already used Parry on himself?

[Demigonis 100]

Finally, can I use Circle of Shelter to Parry an attack that the target (my ally) has already used Parry on himself?

By the RAW it seems to read like that should work.

[JediHamlet 94]

By RAW it says "When the character suffers a hit from..."

However if we reword it to to read "When the character is attacked by...", and since the choice to use the Parry incidental is after the attack roll, you would be able to riposte/reflect. You'd still have to use the Parry/Reflect incidental, and therefor spend the 3 strain.

[TedMaul 15]

I like JediHamlet's suggestion, but since there would be more times when you could use Improved Parry, to keep it balanced, I would make some other changes to the talent (highlighted below):

 

Risposte (Improved Parry)

Activation: Active (Incidental, Out-of-Turn)

Ranked: No 

When the character is targeted by a Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber combat check that generates (Despair) or (Threat)(Threat), and he takes no damage from it, after the attack is resolved, the character can take 2 strain and take the Risposte incidental. When he does it, he automatically hits the attacker once with a wielded Brawl, Melee, or Lightsaber weapon.

This hit deals the weapon’s base damage plus any damage from applicable talents. 

 

 

Additionally, to keep the balance and similarities between parry/reflect, the Improved Reflect talent should be modified as well:

 

Redirect Shot (Improved Reflect)

Activation: Active (Incidental, Out-of-Turn)

Ranked: No 

Force talent. When the character is targeted by a Ranged (Light), Ranged (Heavy), or Gunnery combat check that generates (Despair) or (Threat)(Threat), and he takes no damage from it, after the attack is resolved, the character can take 2 strain and take the Redirect Shot incidental. When he does that, he automatically hits one target within medium range, dealing the same damage as the hit from the initial ranged attack. The ranged attack’s hit must be one that is able to be reflected and redirected (generally only blaster weapons fall into this category; anything else is subject to GM oversight). 

 

The reasoning behind the new pre-requisite of not taking damage from the attack is to make it work either on a missed attack and on a fully parried/reflected hit (which also rewards having several ranks of Parry/Reflect - the better trained you are at parrying/reflecting, the more frequently you'll be risposting/redirecting attacks).

 

Also, the 2 strain cost is to keep the abuse of using the ability too often, since it can now be activated with 2 Threat instead o 3.

[Thebearisdriving 312]

Point of note, you didn't say two threat in your rewrites, and you don't specify that the players must spend the threat/despair.

 

Also, the strain cost should be 3, as it currently is 3, and I don't know why it should get any cheaper.

 

I think Hamlet's suggestion is better, since it can inclusively allow redirects/ripostes on attacks that generate the required threat/despair, hit or miss.

[TedMaul 15]

Point of note, you didn't say two threat in your rewrites, and you don't specify that the players must spend the threat/despair.

Yes, I did. Please check it carefully.

About the spending of threats and despair, I just kept the original text, but you are right. This should be clarified on the next beta updates.

Also, the strain cost should be 3, as it currently is 3, and I don't know why it should get any cheaper.

I don't think you got these talents I re-wrote... To use then you don't have to use the parry or reflect incidental at all, as long the combat check misses you.

But if it hits, you have to use parry parry/reflect (taking 3 strain), and then you could only risposte/redirect (taking 2 more strain) if the parry/reflect completely negated the damage. And even if it did, it would cost 5 strain to do so. So, this way, redirect can become easier to use (by spending 2 threats instead of 3), as folks keep discussing on the other thread about parry/reflect, but it would be extremely costly to do so... And players would be the Masters of their fate about using this resource, instead of relying purely on dice luck, but it would not be trivial to do so, as I believe the writers intended.

And this way ranks in defensive maneuvers (Dodge, etc) would be as valuable to Force users as parry/reflect during combat.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

I could see Improved Parry being reworded to be allowable on a missed attack.  That would increase the power of the talent though, since the player is only suffering the 3 Strain to use Parry, which is a required condition of using Improved Parry alongside the Despair or 3 Threat.  In that light, it starts to look almost too good of an option, since you'd have players using this talent any chance they got and not just when they got hit with a melee attack.

[Thebearisdriving 312]

@tedmaul.  I read them again, and I still don't see in the talent where you're spending the threat despair, only that it is generated.  those are two different and key pieces.

 

And the 3 strain is an important cost.  My point is why should it be less resource intensive on a miss than a hit?  On a miss you're already avoiding damage, so that already swung in your favor cost wise.

 

[a pox on the quote function for not working].

[TedMaul 15]

I could see Improved Parry being reworded to be allowable on a missed attack.  That would increase the power of the talent though, since the player is only suffering the 3 Strain to use Parry, which is a required condition of using Improved Parry alongside the Despair or 3 Threat.  In that light, it starts to look almost too good of an option, since you'd have players using this talent any chance they got and not just when they got hit with a melee attack.

 Donovan, that's why I rewrote the talent to make its use a tough choice on the character's

 

 

@tedmaul.  I read them again, and I still don't see in the talent where you're spending the threat despair, only that it is generated.  those are two different and key pieces.

 

And the 3 strain is an important cost.  My point is why should it be less resource intensive on a miss than a hit?  On a miss you're already avoiding damage, so that already swung in your favor cost wise.

 

[a pox on the quote function for not working].

 

@Thebearisdriving, I already replied this... Yes, yhe threat/despair should be spent to activate the talent, but I used the same writing in the Beta original talent, just changed what's highlighted.

 

It should be less resource intensive on a miss because the talent is intended to be used only offensively. There is no damage soaked when you risposte/redirect, by itself. When you parry/reflect and also risposte/redirect the same attack, then you have to spend 5 strain - which is quite fair, since you are receiving an automatic hit.

 

[Thebearisdriving 312]

Ah... there's the disconnect.  The first update clarified that you must spend that threat despair, not simply that it must be generated.

 

That takes care of that confusion. 

 

I think you and I are viewing resource costs differently.  Currently, the cost to reflect an attack is 3 strain.  the reason for this is the use of the parry/reflect talent.  Your version reduces this cost to 2 strain, as it by passes thee talent.  I contend that deflecting a missed attack is no "easier" than deflecting an attack that is successful, as they both require the act of deflecting (even if not in the words of your rewrites).

 

I'm concerned that lowering the strain cost makes the talent too good, as this is an auto damaging talent that takes has no real action cost.  this is a very powerful thing, and reducing that strain cost is a big change.  So I recommend against it.

 

Of course, if this is your houserule, your game.  But as a suggestion for change I think this tips the balance of power too strongly in the direction of redirected attacks.

[bradknowles 4,449]

So, I was playing earlier, and had 2 Despair to spend, but the attack against me was a miss, and therefore I didn't have to use Parry, and could not then use Improved Parry. Seems kind of odd to me that I can only riposte if I'm hit.

Yeah, but you should still be able to spend those Despair however you want, other than using Parry or Improved Parry.

And with two Despair you can destroy a weapon, so narratively that could be you using your lightsaber to slice it in half. Two Despair can be used for a lot of other things, too.

And narratively that can be explained most any way you want, even using terms like parry and riposte, even if you didn’t actually use the Parry or Improved Parry talents.

[yeti1069 345]

 

So, I was playing earlier, and had 2 Despair to spend, but the attack against me was a miss, and therefore I didn't have to use Parry, and could not then use Improved Parry. Seems kind of odd to me that I can only riposte if I'm hit.

Yeah, but you should still be able to spend those Despair however you want, other than using Parry or Improved Parry.

And with two Despair you can destroy a weapon, so narratively that could be you using your lightsaber to slice it in half. Two Despair can be used for a lot of other things, too.

And narratively that can be explained most any way you want, even using terms like parry and riposte, even if you didn’t actually use the Parry or Improved Parry talents.

 

The ultimate use of the Despair was irrelevant, I just felt it was odd that I have this talent that, I can use to riposte after being attacked but only if I'm hit, that I can't strike back after a miss. Hence, the thread.

[bradknowles 4,449]

The ultimate use of the Despair was irrelevant, I just felt it was odd that I have this talent that, I can use to riposte after being attacked but only if I'm hit, that I can't strike back after a miss. Hence, the thread.

Since combat rounds are relatively long in this game (measured in minutes), from a narrative perspective maybe the other guy just never got close enough to give you anything to parry or riposte against. You can still counter attack in other ways, but if your opponent manages to flub things badly enough that he manages to throw his weapon behind him or it falls apart in his hands, then there simply wouldn’t be anything for you to parry.

It’s important to get out of the D20/MMO mindset and into a much more narrative frame of mind, and don’t necessarily pay such close attention to "this power/talent/skill is called X, and therefore I can’t possibly do anything related to X without it".

It’s narrative. It’s a story. Help tell the story and use whatever words you want to use, without being so narrowly focused on the precise technical means by which you get from point A to point B.

Oh, and have fun. That’s the most important thing. ;-)

[Daeglan 5,950]

Wrong thread

Edited September 17, 2014 by Daeglan