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Ferretz

Can F&D careers be Jedi?

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The descriptions in the book do state that the there are only two Jedi left - Luke and Yoda.

The Consular Career write-up mentions these are not Consular Jedi from the fallen Republic but those who follow in their path/tradition.

 

But the text is placing everything in the context of the canon Rebellion Era.

Sam Stewart stated in the latest Order66 podcast that these careers and specializations and species were picked with support for other eras in mind.

 

There are pictures of Jedi in the book.

There are 6 specs focused on Jedi lightsaber forms.

Even a lot of the fluff supports the role-play angle of the character restoring the Jedi Order.

 

It quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and flies like a duck.  It might be a duck.

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The descriptions in the book do state that the there are only two Jedi left - Luke and Yoda.

The Consular Career write-up mentions these are not Consular Jedi from the fallen Republic but those who follow in their path/tradition.

 

But the text is placing everything in the context of the canon Rebellion Era.

Sam Stewart stated in the latest Order66 podcast that these careers and specializations and species were picked with support for other eras in mind.

 

There are pictures of Jedi in the book.

There are 6 specs focused on Jedi lightsaber forms.

Even a lot of the fluff supports the role-play angle of the character restoring the Jedi Order.

 

It quacks like a duck, swims like a duck and flies like a duck.  It might be a duck.

 

QUACK!

 

Or a really confused swan. :D

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As other people have indicated the line isn't meant to say that career does not accurately represent what a Jedi Consular is meant to be, but rather that having that career does not make you ipso facto a Jedi. In fact, the role of Consular among the Jedi could likely be fulfilled by many of the careers and specializations; it's just the career that best reflects the ideal.

On a side note, I'm not even sure how they come to the conclusion that Luke is a Jedi. He certainly displays force ability when he returns from Dagobah, but there is no Jedi Order left to induct him. Moreover, he does not act at all like a member of the Jedi Order is supposed to. In fact, far from eschewing emotional attachments, he embraces them to great effect. He is no more a Jedi than anyone else who may have been trained by or pursue the loftier goals of the Jedi. And if we're being honest, that's probably a good thing. Even in the Clone Wars, most Jedi are complete prigs.
 

Edited by T3CHN0Shaman

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he is the first being to be promoted by the current council in 20+ years...

Not ignorant of that point. I'm just not sure you can say that its strictly true when the "Current Council" consists of the last known Jedi and the proposed "heir" demonstrates almost no knowledge of Jedi tradition. To be clear, I'm not saying he doesn't have it; just that there's really not enough "canon" to come to that conclusion. And I assume we must be talking about "canon" because if we allowed for the EU obviously Obi-wan and Yoda weren't the only Jedi to survive the Purge.

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I suppose it's a question of title versus heritage.  IS luke a Jedi because he is told he is a Jedi, by a Jedi with authority, or is it because he needs to learn the teachings of Vodo Siosk Baas?

 

Mind you, I don't think either one of those alone is right, but I lean toward that he is a jedi because he learned what he needed to know, and was deemed so by his peers/masters.  And Jedi tradition arguably didn't do the jedi much good within the last 40 years prior to Luke's coronation.

 

EDIT: and yes, canon is our topic, as the recently redone definitions of EU now means basically none of the none canon material is actually true.

 

I have read some of the plot spoilers for EpVII, and if even half of them are true (which is to say a big if) then most all of the EU after the battle of yavin is right out the window.  Baby, Bathwater, and basin tub.  So for now, Canon is the safe bet.

Edited by Thebearisdriving

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I suppose it's a question of title versus heritage.  IS luke a Jedi because he is told he is a Jedi, by a Jedi with authority, or is it because he needs to learn the teachings of Vodo Siosk Baas?

For me, its a question of authority and meaning. Specifically, does Yoda really have the authority to make Luke a Jedi? And even if he does, did he really meet the standards of a Jedi?

Now, Luke can be a Jedi without being a Master or even a Knight, but I'm not sure we see enough of Jedi tradition in the clone wars to determine what steps are necessary to be considered a Padawan. They aren't, apparently, assigned a mentor until they become one so it can't simply be up to the Mentor. Likewise, the transition to Knight was apparently decided on by the council as a whole. So, it would seem it comes down to, does a lone individual have the authority to make a determination that is normally made by a council of people? Yoda is certainly the only person qualified to actually make such an induction, if anyone were, but that leads me around to the question of meaning. If Yoda inducts him into the Jedi Order with a different set of principles than the Order was meant to embody is he truly a Jedi (ie: a member of the old Jedi Order)? The portrayal of Luke is not dissimilar to that of Anakin (though typically less arrogant) and his induction into the Order was not considered representative.

Idle thoughts either way, I'm sure. :-)

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Well, I don't think there are "trials" to become a padawan, but there are trials to being a knight.  IIRC one is a trial of the flesh, and another is building your own saber.

 

Looking at some of the things Luke does in empire and jedi, those trials may be fulfilled.  But to quote one very authoritative source, "My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained." [and probably ordained as official jedi.]

 

I suppose, if Luke mirrors annikin's character, life, and journey, then Luke truly becomes a Jedi when he denies the emperor's path, and accepts death over corruption.  For a lack of passion is the cornerstone of the jedi code.  Despite his desire to save his friends, free the galaxy, and fulfill his heritage, he accepts  that there is no passion; there is peace, and that there is no death; there is the force.

 

but you're right, they are all idle thoughts. :)

Edited by Thebearisdriving

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Luke actually rebuilt the Jedi order to what it should have been. The Jedi Order had become stagnate and corrupt just like the republic they served, mired down by dogma and traditions (this has actually been a cyclical problem throughout the history of the Jedi). Mulling around in robes meditating in a temple, enforcers of a political body. Even the great Qui-gon-Jinn had his issues with order, so did Obi-wan later. It wasn't always this way.

 

 There had been times throughout history of the jedi order where jedi married and had families and acted in many ways like the average citizens of the galaxy which was their true charge to protect (not a political body). Now when Sith and others targeted their families it was an effective means of turning the Jedi survivor to anger and hatred and then they fall to the dark side and it was a win win for them. So the Jedi rule of attachment made sense and was wise. You had to be careful of attachments. However like most religions today the wisdom of the practice became a rule and then the rule became dogma, so Jedi are (supposed to be) celibate, and think about that for a moment, Yoda said "life creates it, makes it grow" the Jedi then withdraw from the creation of life which in turn, creates the Force.

 

Palpatine did not create Darth Vader, The Jedi Order did. Sure Palpatine fanned the flames. It was the rigid, unbending, and unforgiving Jedi which provided the fuel. 

 

Anakin was the chosen one who would bring balance to the force. Not by just destroying the Sith, but the Jedi as well. It was his son Luke, who would rebuild and restore the Jedi to what they should of been, a group of people called together from across the galaxy to serve and protect it and those who dwell in it.

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Well, I don't think there are "trials" to become a padawan, but there are trials to being a knight.  IIRC one is a trial of the flesh, and another is building your own saber.

 

Looking at some of the things Luke does in empire and jedi, those trials may be fulfilled.  But to quote one very authoritative source, "My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained." [and probably ordained as official jedi.]

 

I suppose, if Luke mirrors annikin's character, life, and journey, then Luke truly becomes a Jedi when he denies the emperor's path, and accepts death over corruption.  For a lack of passion is the cornerstone of the jedi code.  Despite his desire to save his friends, free the galaxy, and fulfill his heritage, he accepts  that there is no passion; there is peace, and that there is no death; there is the force.

 

but you're right, they are all idle thoughts. :)

As far as moving from Initiate to Padawan, the Path of the Jedi book (which though Legends is a **** fine resource on the old Jedi Order and their views on the Force) does note that the Initiate does need to pass a certain tests before they can be deemed suitable for graduating to Padawan; if the Initiate doesn't possess competence in the basic skills and knowledge required of a Jedi, then it's going to make their Padawan training a lot more difficult if not impossible.

 

In Yoda's case, the big problem was that Luke was a full-grown adult with a plethora of preconceived notions about how the galaxy worked and a mindset that was dangerously close to what his father had at about the same age, and we know where that mindset took Anakin.  And a lot of Luke's early training was tearing down those preconceived notions, to "unlearn what you have learned" and so be to more in tune with and receptive to the Will of the Force.  Could also be that Yoda was testing Luke's determination to see if the boy really was earnest about becoming a Jedi; there's been more than a few myths where the mentor refuses to train the hero in some secret art, and only "relents" when the hero does or says something that reveals the depth of their commitment.  Plus after 20+ years in a stinking, slimy mudhole, Yoda could quite possibly have gone a little senile, and needing some prodding from Obi-Wan to remember why he'd gone into hiding (to be there to train the galaxy's New Hope to restore balance and depose the Sith).

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So, it would seem it comes down to, does a lone individual have the authority to make a determination that is normally made by a council of people? Yoda is certainly the only person qualified to actually make such an induction, if anyone were, but that leads me around to the question of meaning. If Yoda inducts him into the Jedi Order with a different set of principles than the Order was meant to embody is he truly a Jedi (ie: a member of the old Jedi Order)? The portrayal of Luke is not dissimilar to that of Anakin (though typically less arrogant) and his induction into the Order was not considered representative.

"Not the last of the old, but first of the new", anyone?  ;) Unofficially Yoda was going to die on Dagobah while Obi-Wan was inaccessible to anyone not Force-sensitive, so at "best" Luke got a "battlefield commission" of sorts, and to some extent his legitimacy as "Jedi" at the time rested on anyone else besides Yoda acknowledging him as a Jedi... and ironically, Vader was the one who deemed that his "skills are complete."  :P Still, afterwards if I recall it basically came down to "the wider Galaxy" treating him as a Jedi, then shoring up that authority-through-perceived-legitimacy through learning about the prior Order.

There had been times throughout history of the jedi order where jedi married and had families and acted in many ways like the average citizens of the galaxy which was their true charge to protect (not a political body).

There's more than a bit of EU/Legends lore that also had Jedi marrying/having families in the time of the prequels, but they're not depicted in the movies due to their narrow focus on what I've dubbed "the Coruscant sect"... which presumably through immediate access to media/the Senate came to be "mainstream regarded" as speaking of the Jedi as a whole.

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