Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Kaelthas

So what do you think would happen?

Recommended Posts

The Emperor certainly did nothing to dissuade the mechanicus from thinking he was the Omnisah, what with him landing on mars in his golden(!) spaceship and going "machine heal thyself!"

 

Reminds me of that extensive AdMech background article from WD #178 ...

 

"On Mars the Emperor was recognised as the long-awaited Omnissiah of cult legend. A frenzy of popular uprising swept through the entire Cult Mechanicus as word spread of his coming. When the Emperor arrived on Mars he was hailed as the Machine God Incarnate and the Tech-Priests and Techno-Magi alike came to acknowledge his leadership and marvel at the technical secrets at his command.
 
Not all amongst the Cult Mechanicus were happy with this turn of events. Many of the senior Magi resented the disturbance in the status quo threatening, as it did, their own power base. A few of these malcontents led a rebellion and seized the Temple of All Knowledge from where they called the faithful to war against the Emperor. The conflict that followed was short and bloody, and ended in the defeat of the reactionaries and triumph of the Emperor's followers. Mars and Earth were reunited after millennia of separate development."

 

And when exactly did he do that? He likely had the same opinion as any other religion. A waste of time and resources.

 

See, that's why I think the HH novel interpretation is a bit weird, or rather inconsistent, as those books apparently (from what I've been told by other fans) portray him as treating any religion as something that must be removed ... yet then we have the Machine Cult that gets completely ignored by this supposed anti-religious stance.

 

I suppose it would have been a bit too much to meddle in this even with the levels of artistic license granted by GW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My bet is the emperor only cracked down on religion in order to stop chaos (wich was his main goal)

You can't start worshiping chaos gods, if you have no idea of the concepts of "worship" and "god".

 

The mechanicus thing might have been the oposite, a deliberate attempt to control the mechanicus and curtail scientific inventions. Seems counterproductive at first but since mankind was apearntly almost destroyed by AI robots during the age of strife i guess he tought this was a good idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think he realized early on that while ridding the galaxy of religion would go a long way in weakening chaos actively suppressing worship would only breed darker cults and more hidden religions giving Chaos strength in the long run.

 

I think in the end he was more after monitored religions when they wouldn't be in the way of more important things like not dying from literally everything else in the galaxy coming after you.

 

He may have come across as a bit harsh however.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My bet is the emperor only cracked down on religion in order to stop chaos (wich was his main goal)

You can't start worshiping chaos gods, if you have no idea of the concepts of "worship" and "god".

 

The mechanicus thing might have been the oposite, a deliberate attempt to control the mechanicus and curtail scientific inventions. Seems counterproductive at first but since mankind was apearntly almost destroyed by AI robots during the age of strife i guess he tought this was a good idea.

 

In the HH novels, was the Cult Mechanicus not already around before the Emperor arrived on Mars? I've not read the books myself but rely on what I read on the forums, so I may possibly lack key parts of that version of the setting.

 

Also, the Machine Cult propagates worship and divinity, yet apparently there was no edict to even restrict it to the AdMech itself, allowing it to spread. By that interpretation, this would completely undermine the reason for stamping out all those other cults.

 

... come to think of it, it's also a bit strange that his decree on restricting Land Raiders to the Legiones Astartes has survived the millennia, yet supposedly the whole "religion is bad mkay" deal died the second Big E hit the floor next to Horus' body, with Terra immediately becoming the birthplace for the strongest and most aggressive Imperial cult.

 

[edit-addendum]

 

I'm sorry, all of that must come off as incredibly groxheaded. I guess I'm just disappointed that just because a bunch of Black Library novels say something it immediately gets accepted as gospel by what feels like the majority of the fandom.

I suppose I feel a bit left behind for making use of GW's "pick your version" policy when it feels like everyone else doesn't, yet I still find it difficult to keep my hands off entering such discussions.

 

... it still sounds inconsistent tho :b

Edited by Lynata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

My bet is the emperor only cracked down on religion in order to stop chaos (wich was his main goal)

You can't start worshiping chaos gods, if you have no idea of the concepts of "worship" and "god".

 

The mechanicus thing might have been the oposite, a deliberate attempt to control the mechanicus and curtail scientific inventions. Seems counterproductive at first but since mankind was apearntly almost destroyed by AI robots during the age of strife i guess he tought this was a good idea.

 

In the HH novels, was the Cult Mechanicus not already around before the Emperor arrived on Mars? I've not read the books myself but rely on what I read on the forums, so I may possibly lack key parts of that version of the setting.

 

Also, the Machine Cult propagates worship and divinity, yet apparently there was no edict to even restrict it to the AdMech itself, allowing it to spread. By that interpretation, this would completely undermine the reason for stamping out all those other cults.

 

... come to think of it, it's also a bit strange that his decree on restricting Land Raiders to the Legiones Astartes has survived the millennia, yet supposedly the whole "religion is bad mkay" deal died the second Big E hit the floor next to Horus' body, with Terra immediately becoming the birthplace for the strongest and most aggressive Imperial cult.

 

[edit-addendum]

 

I'm sorry, all of that must come off as incredibly groxheaded. I guess I'm just disappointed that just because a bunch of Black Library novels say something it immediately gets accepted as gospel by what feels like the majority of the fandom.

I suppose I feel a bit left behind for making use of GW's "pick your version" policy when it feels like everyone else doesn't, yet I still find it difficult to keep my hands off entering such discussions.

 

... it still sounds inconsistent tho :b

 

 

The mechanicus was around before the emperor (publicly) came to mars ( he must have come there earlier to bury the void dragon there)Now bear in mind, that whole the emperor set it up so he could be viewed as the omnissiah so he could use teh mechanicus is (mostly) just my conspiracy theory.

 

Well in the novels you already have small groups of people worshipping the emperor before the dropsite massacres happened.  My theory is that malcador figged out that Lorgar was right all along (of course he was) and mankind needed spiritual leadership and he helped to whip op the church of the emperor. When in doubt, blame Malcador.

 

The Land raider thing actualy makes sense: There's not that many about and It's basically a big assault carrier (yes yes it's also a heavily armed tank hunter) best suited to dropping terminators right in the smack of things. Who else would you put in that would be nearly as effective? imperial guard? bwahhahahhahaha! Ogryn? ogryn in a landraider? the dark angels would have a fit! Okay sisters of battle maybe, but they already got an Immolator tank. :)

 

Another decree by the big E that survived the milennia is: "NO A.I. No robots!" No wonder the imperium doesn't lihe the tau.

 

The HH novels truly are the gospel of him on earth, halleliuah! praise be! - ok just kidding here.

I guess most people stick with them, since they are the most detailed sources we have from the horus heresy era.

The thing is there are many diffrent sources and some even contradict now. I have this short bit of fluff from the epic space marine game thats sais teh Eisenstein was crewed by 70 loyalist space marines from all the 9 traitor legions. It completly doesn't mesh with the later renditions of the drop site massacres.

 

And don't worry Lynata; you're opinions are just as right as any of ours. you stick to your guns.

 

And i'll go get some ammo. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[edit-addendum]

I'm sorry, all of that must come off as incredibly groxheaded. I guess I'm just disappointed that just because a bunch of Black Library novels say something it immediately gets accepted as gospel by what feels like the majority of the fandom.

I suppose I feel a bit left behind for making use of GW's "pick your version" policy when it feels like everyone else doesn't, yet I still find it difficult to keep my hands off entering such discussions.

 

... it still sounds inconsistent tho :b

I've only seen this because it was quoted, and I'll try and restrain the more vitriolic parts of my vocabulary...

Personally speaking, I incorporate the Heresy material as much as possible because I regard it as the 'closest-to-truth'. I've thought on the best way to express this approach, and have finally come to something.

40k background is perceptual, rather than factual - there's no facts in any 40k source, only perceptions and opinions, the equivalent of witness testimonies and historical treatises, subject to authorial bias, misremembered details, and incomplete understandings of the details.

That in mind, I regard the Heresy material (produced by both Black Library and Forge World) as akin to eyewitness testimony on the events of the Unity, Crusade, and Heresy eras, while 40k sources (collectively representing perceptions from ten thousand years later) are closer to historical texts on ancient events, influenced by generations of misconception, bias, and revisionism (history is written by the victors, as the saying goes).

The two are not mutually exclusive - the events of the Heresy as understood by the contemporary Imperium are more important to the shape of the Imperium than the events as they actually happened.

The mechanicus was around before the emperor (publicly) came to mars ( he must have come there earlier to bury the void dragon there)Now bear in mind, that whole the emperor set it up so he could be viewed as the omnissiah so he could use teh mechanicus is (mostly) just my conspiracy theory.

 

Well in the novels you already have small groups of people worshipping the emperor before the dropsite massacres happened.  My theory is that malcador figged out that Lorgar was right all along (of course he was) and mankind needed spiritual leadership and he helped to whip op the church of the emperor. When in doubt, blame Malcador.

 

The Land raider thing actualy makes sense: There's not that many about and It's basically a big assault carrier (yes yes it's also a heavily armed tank hunter) best suited to dropping terminators right in the smack of things. Who else would you put in that would be nearly as effective? imperial guard? bwahhahahhahaha! Ogryn? ogryn in a landraider? the dark angels would have a fit! Okay sisters of battle maybe, but they already got an Immolator tank. :)

 

Another decree by the big E that survived the milennia is: "NO A.I. No robots!" No wonder the imperium doesn't lihe the tau.

As I understand the original Imperium (as opposed to the second Imperium built from the ashes of the first), there are a few considerations to make.

The Age of Strife represents, at least on Terra, a time of brutal internecine warfare driven by nationalist or religious sentiment, the greed of tyrants, and the wages of sorcery. The notions of faith, magic, and daemons are sources of distress on Terra, so along comes the Emperor, slaying the tyrants, and crushing the churches (this can be seen in Graham McNeill's short story "The Last Church" in Tales of Heresy), 'saving' people from the 'darkness of superstition'.

It's really good propaganda, and like a lot of wartime propaganda, being brash and overt and extremely direct is desirable; there's little room for nuance or political debate. The notion of Imperial Truth - the triumph of reason over superstition, and the banishment of the Long Night (the colloquial term for the Age of Strife) - is a way to 'preach' the expulsion of religion from this new society, a faith for the faithless.

But that kind of thing is never entirely effective. Belief in the Imperator-Dei, the Emperor-as-God, springs up quickly in the wake of the burning of old faiths, and isolated pockets of old worshippers continued their practices as best they could in silence. Faith cannot be killed so easily.

So, with Terra united under the Emperor's banner, his attentions return to Mars. While the details are couched in mystery and mythology, the Emperor is believed to have imprisoned the Void Dragon - defeated in the distant past by the Emperor (and presented as the origin of the "George and the Dragon" myth) - beneath the surface of Mars. He'd had plans for the Red Planet for a very long time. His return to Mars is a show of grandeur and spectacle, an act to demonstrate his power and the righteousness of his rule. Mars is invaluable - it has infrastructure and manufacturing capabilities that Terra does not, having not only maintained industry but also sent exploratory missions into the galaxy during the Age of Strife (founding the earliest Forge Worlds).

Their faith is, on the surface, incompatible with Imperial Truth, but the Martians are insular and secretive, and their religion is focussed on knowledge and understanding. The Cult Mechanicus, then as today, is a mystery cult, with its members granted knowledge through elevation, and elevation through knowledge - its adherents do not preach or proselytize, and they do not seek converts because their beliefs are built upon the idea of knowledge only being for the worthy.

The Mechanicum of Mars can keep their faith, because it is a faith in science, and because the Martians are too valuable to the future of the Imperium to war against. As the novel Mechanicum suggests, belief in the Emperor-as-Omnissiah seems to be one of the defining differences between those who sided with Horus and those who remained loyal to the Imperium - those who turned had become resentful of the strictures of the Treaty of Mars, while those who remained loyal believed the Emperor to be the living embodiment of their faith.

During the early days of the Imperium, Lorgar Aurelian, Golden Son of the Emperor and Primarch of the Word Bearers, penned a work that would define the nascent and scattered 'cult of the God-Emperor' - the Lectio Divinitatus, a holy book for a new religion that was spreading with every expedition and exploratory mission. His words - and the credo that "The Emperor Protects" - are widespread but hidden, existing even amongst the serfs and crew of Astartes vessels (because of the Emperor is divine, so too must his children).

While Lorgar eventually turns from the religion he once supported, the belief persists in those who had found it. When the Heresy breaks out, some Traitors tend to take worship of the Emperor as vindication of their beliefs that the Imperium is corrupt, while believers in the Emperor's divinity regard Horus' betrayal as being not only reprehensible, but blasphemous.

While the Heresy novels do not yet provide the full details - we're not even half-way through a conflict that spanned hundreds of thousands of worlds and many years - we know a few things about the end of the war.

Malcador was dead, having given his life to take the Emperor's place on the Throne while the Master of Mankind confronted Horus. The Emperor was installed in the Golden Throne, safeguarding mankind in near-death. The remaining Primarchs were embittered and fractious, uncertain of how to proceed. Sanguinius - beloved by all, and closest to the Emperor in spirit and vision - was dead, and the leadership he had provided during the war was gone (this is covered in Codex Blood Angels as well as "The Unremembered Empire"; Sanguinius was chosen to lead the loyalists, the second Warmaster). The next few decades were spent clinging to the ruins of the Emperor's dream and purging all trace of the traitors from the galaxy - an age known as the Scouring. The Imperium was in ruins... and only one thing, really, had survived the desolation, in spite of everything.

Faith. Belief in the Emperor's divinity amongst those still loyal to the Imperium had managed to persist, giving people something to hold on to as daemons and monsters waged war on the Imperium.

And, while it took time - it would be centuries before the earliest form of the Adeptus Ministorum would form - this faith in the Emperor became the bedrock of Imperial unity.

In a way, the Imperium from after the Heresy isn't the same civilisation as the one that the Emperor founded. It's a civilisation built from the ruins of the Emperor's dream, and one that only superficially resembles the empire that was forged by the Legiones Astartes during the Great Crusades. It is an empire built upon forgotten lies, and misremembered truths, and an incomplete, fractured interpretation of an immortal's vision.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Land raider thing actualy makes sense: There's not that many about [...]

 

Oh, sure it makes sense - now! But back then, when the Imperium still had better tech and a much larger production capability of such advanced vehicles, it was only a matter of time until production would increase again. The way it was explained (at least in the original material) it was a temporary decree that just never got revoked because Big E died, and nobody dared to countermand this order. Well, except some Inquisitors on a personal basis...

 

If someone with sufficient influence would be willing to declare that decree null and void, there are a few forces which might benefit from such a vehicle, from the Major Orders Militant to individual Imperial Guard Superheavy regiments (seeing as Land Raiders can also be operated as Titan killers).

 

Then again, this would have to come from the High Lords, and I suppose it's safe to say that such minutiae does not really bother them...

 

Another decree by the big E that survived the milennia is: "NO A.I. No robots!" No wonder the imperium doesn't lihe the tau.

 

 

Hah, that reminds me of that Land Raider cutaway poster from White Dwarf ...

 

AdMech: "Look here, we're using human brains! Not artificial!"  :lol:

 

I guess most people stick with them, since they are the most detailed sources we have from the horus heresy era.

 

Hmmh, I guess it's because they're new/current, and due to being novels. Very few people seem to bother with getting their hands on older codices or issues of White Dwarf and similar sources because they are mostly regarded as game supplements, whereas people who want to read cool stories head to Black Library first.

 

It's ... a bit sad how many cool snippets of fluff are almost entirely unknown (even by the respective army's own fans - how many SoB players have ever read the Liber Sororitas?) just because they've only been printed once or twice a decade or two ago.

Though I admit it wasn't easy to find out about their existence, much less actually getting my hands on them. Games Workshop could really make it easier for its fans. Though they do reprint things from time to time, such as the  10 year old force disposition charts in the 6E rulebook.

 

And then of course there's the wikis which are still widely regarded as "the absolute truth"...

 

Don't worry Lynata! Your perspective is always welcome! :)

 

Heh, not by everyone, I'm sure. But thanks. ;)

 

Another member once pointed out I should just "go with the flow" instead of clinging to GW studio sources, but that just isn't the 40k I grew up with or even am capable of enjoying. It's like the difference between Old Trek and JJ Trek to me. Maybe some day I'll just have to face the consequences of my taste and look for greener pastures, but that depends largely on GW and how much "maintenance" they do regarding their original vision for the setting. Unfortunately, for the time being, it is just getting worse rather than better.

 

Time will tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

40K definatly changed since i got into it back in the 90s. It was a lot more cyberpunk than gothic and not quite as grimdark as from 3d edition on. Space marines with grafiitty on their shoulder pads ("The one big one") and the green peace refernce chapter aka the Rainbow warrior. Have you seen some of the first Deathwing terminators? back then they had this whole native american iconography for some reason, but nowadays the got all gothic with the robes and hoods and  those gothic arches on their armor and the cencers and all. It does make them fit in better with the rest of the dark angels.

 

Old GW stuff (white dwarfs/ rulebooks) are hard to come by. Unless you go freebooter and go look on torrent sites. (I came across one that had several rar full of old white dwarf pdf scans)

Edited by Robin Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Heh, I came to 40k during 3rd Edition myself, but managed to hunt down quite a bit of 2E over the years. As for older material, there's also lots of small magazine shops on ebay who sell back issues - I purchased loads of old White Dwarves for cheap from some nice old person in the UK. :)

 

The really old background you're referring to sounds a lot like the Rogue Trader-era, and of course there was quite a change when they transitioned into 2nd Edition, so that's not "my" 40k either. But even there you can find lots of cool bits of information or inspiration, and as the GW people mentioned in the codex design notes, they occasionally do go all the way back to those roots when writing stuff (for example, the Rainbow Warriors you mentioned were specifically cited as a reference that led to 3rd Edition's fluff about SoB purging Marines).

 

It's crazy when you think about how much material has been written over the course of several decades, even if you limit it to just GW's own sources...

 

I've come to accept the lack of a canon as a fact of the IP, but I still wish there was a repository that would grant us easy access to everything that has been written. From what I've been told, their licensees (Black Library authors, but I assume FFG as well) have the opportunity to request copies of anything that has been printed at any point in GW's history - but imagine if this was available in digital form, and for everyone. I'd actually pay quite a bit of cash for that...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"My" 40k is 2nd edition i guess with a bit of post MB space crusade mixed in aswell. Oh and realm of chaos!

I found some rogue trader scans online (the WHFB 3d edition one looks like it was blessed by nurgle and used for blood sacrifices/ red paint smears halfway in.) Man i squeed like a school girl when i saw they brought back the space sharks as the charadon astra.

 

I really like the bright colors they used back around 2nd (and 4th for WHFB) I was really glad when i finaly got my hands on teh Epic rulebooks especially "Ork & squat warlords" Yaay squats rule! F U GW!

 

Oh yeah in that bit about the landraiders when i said the dark angels would have a fit if you'd put ogryn in a landraider? That was a refernce to a short fragment in an old white dwarf: The DA get asked to support a nearby imperial guard squad under heavy fire, when they arive it turns out the squad consist of a ogryn and their handler. The Dark angels sergeant's responce? "Brothers we're leaving!" Awesome. (Douchebaggery seems to be in their geneseed :) )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started out in 1993, early in 2nd edition (I was seven, nearly eight at the time), but my access to materials back then was limited. Still, looking back on it, the 2nd edition material is a lot less bleak and grim than the material that preceded and succeeded it - RT-era was an eclectic mix of whatever dark sci-fi and fantasy inspired the authors originally, which slowly coalesced into something more, but I tend to find a lot of the 2nd edition material, while great for expanding a lot of the details, somewhat bland in terms of tone. I'm far more comfortable with the overly-grandiose and "more dark fantasy than science fiction" tone that came from 3rd edition onwards, particularly the tendency to present things much more in an "in-universe" style, though the quantity of details was lacking during that period. Similar can be seen with Warhammer Fantasy - the early form of the setting (still preserved in 1st edition WFRP material) was dark humour and eclectic low fantasy, the middle period (4th and 5th edition WFB) was bright red in every sense, while 6th edition onwards (including WFRP 2nd and 3rd editions) have tended back towards the darkness of the earlier editions, but with a greater allowance for epic heroism in spite of the gloom.

 

Broadly, I'm a neophile in this regard - I like new ideas and new developments and new interpretations, and I like the challenge of an expanding worldview, adapting my pet theories and personal interpretations with each new addition. All through my time working on this little corner of the 40k universe, I'd refer to old material frequently, but always with an eye to how it should fit the tone of the setting today, and often alongside newer sources - for example, a major inspiration for a lot of the White Scars and Salamanders rules in First Founding were novels, Codex entries, and the Index Astartes articles about those Chapters, but I looked back to the Rogue Trader material I've collected to see if there were any valuable nuggets of information to draw upon even further back (turns out, most of the modern depiction of the White Scars only dates back as far as the late 90s - then-White Dwarf Editor Paul Sawyer defined much of their style with his own army, in the early days of 3rd edition 40k, while a lot of the Salamanders material with any detail comes from the Third Armageddon War campaign).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, to be surrounded by so many of the young .....  :D

 

My 40K goes back to the original RT and my first box of Space Wombles; and looking back: my how things have changed!

 

The first Draco book, Deathwing short story collection (can't remember the name now) Slaves to Darkness / Lost and Dammed and the background to Adeptus Titanicus - all rewrote the universe in big and small ways and I do remember the awe and joy of avidly devouring everything that came out.

 

Sorry, bit of a thread derailment, I'll just go and get my zimmer frame and be off now....

 

DW 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...