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Volstruis

Petition against NetrunnerDB Cease & Desist

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Every single Netrunner card says "{C} Wizards of the Coast LLC." So, that's who I assume their contract is with. If you're going to argue that Wizards doesn't actually own Netrunner, or that FFG should waste time and money fighting a company whose parent company is Hasbro in court over what rights they do or don't have, just so one fan site doesn't have to get shut down...I'm sorry, you're just no longer arguing from a perspective based in reality.

There's one glaring problem with this argument: there's absolutely zero evidence to support it. You've never seen the contract that FFG has with Wizards. You don't have any communique from Wizards asking FFG to shut down NetrunnerDB. This is a scenario which you've made up out of whole cloth and apparently have accepted as fact...and yet I'm the one who's not based in reality.

 

Just accept that Fantasy Flight lashed out at their own fan community for reasons that were horribly misguided and stupid. They weren't forced to do it. They chose to do it. It was a dumb decision. Perhaps they realize that now, perhaps they don't. There's no reason to make up silly stories in order to feel better about what they did, though.

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Just accept that Fantasy Flight lashed out at their own fan community for reasons that were horribly misguided and stupid.

 

 

Are you asserting with this statement that you know what the reasons were, or that any and all possible reasons were horribly misguided and stupid?

 

Because if there are any potential reasons that aren't horribly misguided and stupid, then you are asserting that you know for a fact that those were not the reasons.

 

If this is the case, do you have any evidence for such a claim?

 

Or are you rather stating that there could not have possibly been a good reason to do this?

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Very unfortunate that FFG has taken this move. I would have hoped that they could have communicated what they didn't like about netrunnerdb.com and given the guy a chance to change the site first. 

 

SIGNED!

Just to remind you, not communicating their objections to NRDB doesn't only hurt that site.  If there are ambiguities in what differentiates a site they allow and a site they will close, people will be more reluctant to make new sites.  The whole community suffers.

 

 

As one of the people who used to run one of more than a dozen L5R fan sites, I must agree with this. Not to mention the silence and the wild rumours flying around. I am especially afraid of the one saying that if FFG offers the functionality they are the only ones in that sandbox. In addition to the previously listed resources and communities that are affected I am now afraid for all sites that have ANR articles (FFG does that), forums (FFG has that), YouTube channels (FGG...).

 

So far only the podcasts are safe; until FFG decides to have one. 

 

 

TL;DR - so far this has been a blow to any FFG fan site, 101 lesson how not to run your PR, and personally a hugely disappointing experience. 

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I am angry about this C&D debacle, and I signed this petition and commented that it was a stupid thing to shut down NRDB.

 

That said, I don't think people should go crazy and boycott FFG about this.  The reason is twofold:

1) If you like the game, play the game.  If they do things that are really money gouging, you can change your attitude based on that, but this seems more like the left hand (the legal department or whatever) not knowing what the right hand (organized play, marketing, whoever) is doing.  There are alternatives, and as much as I prefer NRDB, as long as they're not trying to monopolize community and deckbuilding sites, it's a pretty rash action to go starting a boycott.  Some have said that that is just the path they're taking, but they haven't taken it yet and it's only been a couple of days, so lets see what happens.  If you enjoy playing netrunner, there's no reason to put your cards on ebay or vow to never again support the game.  Relax.  Don't sacrifice your enjoyment for this.  Nobody needs a martyr over this.

 

2) A boycott is a pretty strong tactic to use.  The player community is really strong for netrunner.  If FFG were to do something really nasty or money grubbing, a boycott could be a useful tactic.  If everyone who's willing to boycott the company goes saying they'll boycott them over every situation that looks like it could be bad (It's unresolved!), the community loses some of its power.  It loses it a) if people leave, and b) if FFG feels like the angry element is going to act before negotiation and thus are not going to seek compromise.  If you're really fired up about this that's not a bad thing.  Just relax and try to save the last card you can play for when you really want to play it.

 

I am angry about the C&D, but lets be adults here.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't be angry, but it means we should not act rashly.  There is no benefit for anyone in taking the most radical stance first.  There is benefit in signing petitions and appearing mature and reasonable in discourse.

 

The strategy of holding your breath is usually better?

 

Seriously, I agree that a boycott is the last measure as it is the strongest and locks you in one direction. But, how many people who sent mails received a response? How did FFG handle this in communicating towards the other fan site owners and the rest of the community? 

 

Tangentially, am I the only one who is curious as to why any of the other sites have not been targeted? If so, why not? 

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Grimwalker, I think you probably got it spot on with your comment that any clear community guidelines could cause problems with FFG's partners and that's what's keeping them quiet.

 

That said, when you have an outcry in your fiercely loyal community, ignoring it outright seems like a bad business practice.  I'm entirely confident that FFG could comment on the shutdown in such a way as to soothe the frustration of many people without alienating their partners.  I've found the community to be quite reasonable and mature (it may not seem that way, but this thread is going to be the vocal minority and I still think the level of discourse is comparatively high), so I think people will be understanding if FFG makes a little effort.  I mean, so much of what is flying around is conjecture.  We know very little about the situation at all.  How backwards would things have to be so that they couldn't communicate at all, clear up rumors, make a vague statement about why, without jeopardizing their licenses.  Assuming they can't seems awfully cynical.

 

PS: I know that you weren't saying they can't communicate, just talking about why they are probably unwilling to.  I think you are totally right about their motives, I'm just saying there is probably a way they can soothe the community and still dodge any bullets.

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Every single Netrunner card says "{C} Wizards of the Coast LLC." So, that's who I assume their contract is with. If you're going to argue that Wizards doesn't actually own Netrunner, or that FFG should waste time and money fighting a company whose parent company is Hasbro in court over what rights they do or don't have, just so one fan site doesn't have to get shut down...I'm sorry, you're just no longer arguing from a perspective based in reality.

There's one glaring problem with this argument: there's absolutely zero evidence to support it. 

 

If you're going to ignore the evidence printed on every single card that FFG recognizes and affirms WOTC's copyright, then yes, you and reality are dining at separate tables. 

 

How backwards would things have to be so that they couldn't communicate at all, clear up rumors, make a vague statement about why, without jeopardizing their licenses.  Assuming they can't seems awfully cynical.

 

 

As an exercise for my own amusement, I tried writing just such a document. It was very difficult to craft language that said anything substantial and didn't either divulge too many details by what was *not* said, made statements so vague as to be subject to vast misinterpretation, or that didn't come across as crass deflection.

 

I've had conversations with friends I have at FFG about past PR difficulties: late or damaged shipments, product defects that weren't caught by QA, et cetera. The lessons learned which they took from those incidents is that there really is no pleasing the internet. There's nothing you can say that won't inflame as many people as it assuages, and people will pick over and almost willfully misinterpret anything that can be.

It's the reason FFG never gives hard release dates for its products.

It's the reason we'll never again have a Plugged-In Tour or Chronos Protocol.

It's the reason every single communication they make is routed through the pipeline of the Marketing department, so nobody is off-message.

It's the reason why 90% of the time, FFG says nothing at all. The last time FFG actually did make a public statement about any kind of error, it was when that Mansions of Madness expansion had to be outright recalled and replacement components provided to every customer. Compared to that, one website is a small matter.

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No one at FFG has the courage to stick there heads above the ramparts for this one,quite simply because of the pure backlash/head removal,they would receive from the many disgruntled players about FFG actions in this matter.

you can quote copyright,other legal terms and any other BS all you like until the cows come home;

 

Simple fact,netrunner db was a good site for players (new and old), to source cards, look at/share deck ideas etc and FFG took it away.

Edited by HuntaKiller

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Grimwalker, I wrote up a draft of something that I think would be an acceptable response given what you (and I agree) think their point of view is on this.  I don't think I should post it here.  If you are interested in reading it, let me know and we can exchange our efforts.  I don't think there was any practical point in writing it.  Its only purpose would be rhetorical and it's not appropriate to write something with the company's voice and make it public, so that purpose would be confined to the two of us. You phrased it as an exercise to begin with so I'm sure you understand me.

 

I think you have a good handle on FFG's perspective here and I appreciate your helping to form my opinions through clear discussion.

 

EDIT: And to those who think FFG is being capricious, if your demand is that FFG allow NRDB to continue as it was before and you will take no compromise, why would expect them to respond to you at all?  I'll reiterate, I'm angry about the closure as well, and I'm angry that they haven't talked about it.  That doesn't mean that I have the right to be childish about it.

Edited by thopol

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Or are you rather stating that there could not have possibly been a good reason to do this?

 

Yes, I am stating that. Now, before you say "Nothing is impossible", let me say... I can't imagine a plausible scenario where there was a good reason. If you have evidence that it was a good reason, I'd be happy to see it.

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well, always better to curse the darkness than light a candle, isn't it?

 

Kinda ironic you saying that when FFG been keeping the rest of the community in the dark by not saying anything at all.  I've already put all my FFG products for half price on craigslist.  It's been long enough without a word that I don't think the company even cares about it's customers.

Edited by mysticpickle

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As I said up-thread, the last time FFG actually did make a public statement about some action they had it was regarding a product which was outright defective. It's an unreasonable position for you to hold because companies typically do not publicly comment about trivial legal actions.

 

 

As far as you quitting, well, you've been a site member for six days and the sum total of your contributions have been to ***** about how horrible it all is. Bye.

Edited by Grimwalker

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Long term mtg player and decided to try netrunner.

 

Finding OCTGN is the main reason that I've pursued playing and learning the game.

Then I find netrunnerdb and it's also helpful.  So I went and bought about half of the datasets so far.

Then I found Cyberdeck on my Android  (pun intended) phone Google Play which I was using to browse the cards and learn the cards, learn the game...

 

So then you trash netrunnerdb

which trashes Cyberdeck

 

What's next OCTGN... then you've lost a player.

 

Since you've trashed netrunnerdb and the community that it had.

And Cyberdeck and the small community that it had.

FFG should have to at least provide the same type of resources...

 

Netrunnerdb was gaining you a following and you've shut that down...

 

If they were printing t-shirts and selling fake cards then sure you go after them..

 

You should have offered that kid a job and made it an official site of FFG...

It's easy to break things and that is all most people can think of...

 

And for this supposed to be a cyberpunk game and you shut down a cyberpunk feel site.

I would have never done that.

 

You should be sucking up to that site and saying that you can work together... link to it and sell t-shirts and cards and grab corporate information.

 

FFG Corporation 1   -   Shaper Netrunnerdb 0

 

xsdogstar

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((Moving the post from the wrong thread, thank you Grimwalker...

I realized the double negative within the title...

I didn't see a thread where one could disagree with the event.)))

 

My points still stand. 

 

To have an audience that is immersed in cyber, you have to be immersed as well.

And provide the same tools.

 

Why?  to grow your business by having players become immersed.

 

It is a good game mechanic.  The artwork is excellent and I realize the importance of the copyright.

 

The original netrunner is no more because it didn't have the technology to support the players.

Now it exists.

 

I would be talking with OCTGN and cleaning up his interface to make it easier to use and host it right on FFG.  neetrunnerdb was really good and useful to help learn this game.

 

If you don't have money, then run a kickstarter campaign.

You need to wake up. And see the opportunity here.  Envision selling electronic cards... etc...

 

I'm not angry, just a bit disappointed.  There is a steep learning curve on the game and not a lot of resources, and even fewer now.

 

 

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As I said up-thread, the last time FFG actually did make a public statement about some action they had it was regarding a product which was outright defective. It's an unreasonable position for you to hold because companies typically do not publicly comment about trivial legal actions.

 

 

As far as you quitting, well, you've been a site member for six days and the sum total of your contributions have been to ***** about how horrible it all is. Bye.

 

Well with only jerks like you left in the community I'm glad to go.  Later.

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Relax Mysticpickle.  Don't let the internet make you angry.

 

I still think FFG could and should write a response.  I accept that things are how they are, but they ought to save face.  It's not like when people forget this incident they will revise their impression of the company as well.  Time will heal the wound but not the injured party's opinion of the one who inflicted it.  Is this a company that wants to look like a rigid corporation just milking their money cows or do they think that gaming is a two way street and they need to work with the players?  Do they not care about their appearance and reputation?

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((Moving the post from the wrong thread, thank you Grimwalker...

I realized the double negative within the title...

I didn't see a thread where one could disagree with the event.)))

 

 

Was he pming you not to post in his thread or something? Post where you want, he's defending his own point of view in this thread, you can certainly say your piece in the other one.

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They should probably be merged.  If the idea is that there will be discussion, it doesn't make sense to have separate threads for the opposing viewpoints.

 

To me it all seems moot.  Those who have changed their opinion of FFG have changed it by now.  It's up to the corp now whether or not they want to do something about it.  I think it possible to respond positively (tell me what you think of my example Grim, or tell me if you want to see it other-skeptic), and if they choose not to do it, that's their choice.  I think it would be better to react differently, but I don't think at this point that my opinion will change theirs.

 

The amount of people who have decided to quit buying new products is totally insignificant.  If you want to change things, a petition will not do it.  If a real boycott could be affected, that might do something, but people would need to work hard to get it to work and tempers have cooled enough to make it even more challenging.  If you still want to rage about this, think about it productively (spread the word to other sites, to local players, etc., or try to start an actual boycott campaign or something).  Making angry and sometimes logically twisted posts in this thread or its counterpart will do nobody any good.  Everyone posting here has made their decision by now.

Edited by thopol

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It was more so that it gave the impression that he rolled in quite late in the game with a list of half-baked and bizarrely worded complaints that was not in actual reply to anything actually going on in that thread. If you're going to start a whole new subthread, starting it on the "Not Unreasonable" thread just says that person's not paying attention.

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the game will not be called netrunner and not use any of the personalities in their version of the license they have on "a game"

my game is going to be a cyber punk hacker vs corporation game, and they have zero patent on it. so the can kiss the tip....just the tip.

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