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FoeHammer618

Banning Ogryn

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I don't like ogryn. I don't think they fit in a group of non-ogryn and I think they are broken with UT and US. Anything I throw at the humans bounces off them and anything that can hurt them tpks.

I will admit part of this is because I let a character craft armor for him out of a literal ton of shovels (I was a young GM with such wonder in my eyes) does anyone else have a problem with them either in the fluff or for balancing encounters?

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I don't like ogryns myself. Mostly because of fluff reasons since they don't fit in most regiments beside line infantry and something like this. Currently i GM a party in which squad members are part of infiltration regiment with missions behind enemy lines and i said huge no to ogryns. Abhumans don't fit my vision of 40k anyway.

Edited by felismachina

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...why would a literal ton of shovels protect him against.. anything?

Well imagine a literal TON of steel, hammered into armor, Orky Style!!! You would be impenetrable, but Emperor help you when you find you gotta move your arms or legs or use the bathroom!

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...why would a literal ton of shovels protect him against.. anything?

Again I would do things very differently now but there was an armor smith who rolled a Nat 2. Today I would say "*slap* no that's a bad player" and then throw pinning tests, fear tests and "oops your ammo goes to a more important squad" as punishment/ways to get around TB.

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Well there is one way to get around it that also makes for interesting Roleplaying. Have a commissar say it isnt regulation and have him replace it or else he and his team will get flogged for 20 lashes and/or sent to a penal legion for blatant misuse of shovels. Thats one way I get around it. I have the same thing with my group where they would field craft some things I dont want them to have or have a ton of ammo and I pull rank on them and tell them other people need that ammo or that shiny new gun they got to use for a few battles before I have it taken away so they still get a chance to use it but they dont need it always so I can still almost just kill them with a hotshot lasgun or a sniper etc.

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Ogryn are deadly, right up until you take a very, very close look at what flamers do and how widespread they are among the battlefields of Warhammer 40k.

 

Then they're a piece of cake :D

More like they are the whole cake  ;)

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Ogryn are deadly, right up until you take a very, very close look at what flamers do and how widespread they are among the battlefields of Warhammer 40k.

 

Then they're a piece of cake :D

More like they are the whole cake  ;)

 

 

Zing.

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Ogryns are unbalanced in a very bad way. I had to use heavy bolters to even make him think twice about charging over open ground. Which was a problem because a heavy bolter would slaughter anyone else in the group.

You can, with the new supplement also start so strong he can lift stupid amounts without exhaustion and almost flip tanks with some strain.

They're also VERY VERY VERY boring. There's pretty much  no leeway in what you can make them into and they all get into the same pidgeonhole. I'm never playing with one again at least. And the "but it 'dark in dere!" can end up with the ogryn player being left out, which isn't fun for anyone.

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I don't like ogryn. I don't think they fit in a group of non-ogryn and I think they are broken with UT and US. Anything I throw at the humans bounces off them and anything that can hurt them tpks.

I will admit part of this is because I let a character craft armor for him out of a literal ton of shovels (I was a young GM with such wonder in my eyes) does anyone else have a problem with them either in the fluff or for balancing encounters?

I do not agree, I think the same argument can be made of all the specialist classes in one way or anther . Why would priests hang around with just one squad of men? when they have a regiment of up to a thousand to serve, sure there are more then one priest but still.

 

while ogryns are very powerful, they are also very easy to hit. Big lumbering targets across the battle field, for untrained undisciplined hostiles to fire, at because you need to shoot the big guy first!,lets not worry about the man with the melta gun. Or Orks looking for a good fight and going up ageist the big guy first .

 

They can fit into a variety of roles , not just line infantry, while some are more comical then others, like shoving a ogryn in a drop pod, and throwing him out a Valkyrie. Or as a ammunition carrier for sential squads lugging spare rounds on his or her back .

 

I think the case here is that like which squads that have access to vehicles , such as tanks, encounters with hostiles may need to be altered to better combat these beasts. Flamers are a good start, Missile launchers with krak Missiles. Think of this, you have a giant muscle bound creature charging at you, you panic, load the wrong missle, fire it right at the ogryn = dead. 

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I would think that an Ogryn can't be too much different than an Ork, in regards to bulk, strength, durability, and role, and Orks fight in massive groups, which players can kill. How would the players fight Orks? Have the enemy do that for Ogryns.

 

[opinion]

The FFG games often make terrible assumptions, even when they initially appear like they aren't. EVERYTHING in Rogue Trader that has stats seems to be built for an encounter with a newly minted Rogue Trader and Co., with little thought as to the munchkining of players, or the fact that many Rogue Trader Dynasties are dynasties, and have the resources of centuries to use. These NPC write-ups die terribly easily, unless you take the time to cherry-pick them, abandon the Crew rating, and fill in what you feel is appropriate for them vs your players (is Bastille a challenge? Is Charlabelle Armellan?), give them upgrades from the other books, et al. Heaven forbid you try to play something in what they might see as a wrong order, so everything is "level 1". Only War assumes you are always line infantry, and many encounters fall apart when you have a tank, or some other optional things. While I like having the specialties (I'm a Special Snowflake-afflicted), many of them, like the Ascension jobs in DH1, are only tacked on because the game codex for IG has them, and the fluff does. Priests, Psykers, Commissars, and Tech-Priests are all Independent Characters, more or less, and so they COULD appear in almost any squad you field, usually to have troops as bullet sponges, but in the RPG, they fit, for me, but many people can't accept that they are around, and I can understand a certain amount of their disappreciation. The others are no less guilty (RPing in Deathwatch?), and that's just sort of how the setting works.

[/opinion]

 

It doesn't seem that killing the Ogryn should be too hard, compared to killing everyone else. Let's assume your group doesn't come with a tank/transport; the enemy forces don't know that, and probably have an ML with some krak missiles, just in case the Chimera was around. Upon not seeing one, they can afford to send krak to the Ogryn. Yes, he'll probably melee (it's what he's good at, I'd imagine; I like to think of their accuracy with guns as approximately Orky, and even Hero Orks rarely hit with ranged, in fluff; they just like the sound), and against many things, it doesn't seem it should be too bad. Dodgy Dark Eldar, as durable Orks, the enemy should be fine.

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Mind, if the ogryn is meleeing alone, he should be in deep, deep trouble from any intelligent foe well-trained enough to keep calm while an ogryn's in the middle of them. It doesn't even have to be eldar at all; a group of severan dominate stormtrooper equivalents can, and will, kill that ogryn if played correctly (He's big enough to allow assists for grappeling for example...)

 

I still stand by my original suggestion, though:

He's wearing the equivalent of a giant pot filled with massive, fatty pork. COOK HIM. :D

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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Flamers work.

In my experience, so will a longlas in the hands of a specialist.

A long-las will crush an ogryn's hopes and dreams without absolutely murdering him, compared to almost any of the other PCs that get hit by a sniper. Sending a sniper to shoot at him should get his attention.

 

All of that UT gone from the long-las's felling, and all of that damage knocking huge chunks out of his wounds (cause you ALWAYS should be overcharging for max damage/pen).

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Part of me doesn't feel especially bothered by them just because they really aren't all that hard to deal with. They're tougher, sure, but in most cases the boosted strength means little unless they're going to go into melee, which will be rare. And if they do charge forward to fight, ok they might be able to melee the enemy pretty well but then again they also now have their allies trying to figure out how to work around them, to avoid grenading their buddy Mok, not to mention the high risk of losing their little 'un, and the general problems there. Frankly the Enginseer can get better protective options, the Ogryn can be great for certain kinds of games, I have yet to find a situation where one would be a banning.

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I realized something on last game. While OW gives you lot of options to make your character most of them don't fit. Why? From narrative point of viev. Why would inflitration regiment have priest? Or tank crew had ogryn? Now i know that each regiment should have banned classes that will never be part of it. It makes more sense that way. So if players take specific regiment type tell them what classes they can play and what are banned. Sure core rulebook give you all options but not all should be permitted.

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I realized something on last game. While OW gives you lot of options to make your character most of them don't fit. Why? From narrative point of viev. Why would inflitration regiment have priest? Or tank crew had ogryn? Now i know that each regiment should have banned classes that will never be part of it. It makes more sense that way. So if players take specific regiment type tell them what classes they can play and what are banned. Sure core rulebook give you all options but not all should be permitted.

That is pretty much why our Iconoclastic forge world regiment has no clergy or commissars.

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I realized something on last game. While OW gives you lot of options to make your character most of them don't fit. Why? From narrative point of viev. Why would inflitration regiment have priest? Or tank crew had ogryn? Now i know that each regiment should have banned classes that will never be part of it. It makes more sense that way. So if players take specific regiment type tell them what classes they can play and what are banned. Sure core rulebook give you all options but not all should be permitted.

 

Come on, it's 40k, stranger things happened. If you try just a little bit you can justifie everything.

- Priest in an infiltration unit? oh phuliss, they are very pious, so they have a priest comming with them everywhere, as he hangs out with them he gets mostly same training, so he ends up as a stealthy priest, he will bless you and you won't even know it happened.

- Ogryn in an armored unit? no problem, a unit mascot or "iz a cleva un" and s/he's smart enough to be a loader, that streanght comes in handy when the autoloader get's stuck.

- Tech Priest in a unit? well, you never know what those cyberfreaks think, mechanicus just said that he is joining the unit and the command didn't have much to say if they want their ships to fly, or maybe he has a mission to change those savage world beasts attitude toward the holy technology.

- Commisar joining artilery unit? YOU DARE TO QUESTION A COMMISAR!? HERESY!! <BLAM>

- A ratling baneblade crew? why not? milions of inhabited worlds, at least one of them can be ratling world transformed into lathe, those tanks would be a new pattern, smaller but maybe more manuvrable.

 

I can understand banning ogryns if you know that most of the campaing will take in crampy underground, or not allowing commisar if the campaing is centered around more iffy IG endevours ("Kelly's Heroes").

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Ogryn don't fit in the crew spaces of AFVs unless the AFV is designed to be crewed by people that big. Might be able to work as part of the support elements, but that's Tech-Priest Country.

 

Priest in an infiltration regiment? Probably going to be less of an evangelist, and more of a confessor/counselor to the troops - infiltration/covert ops can be very stressful, and they need someone they can talk to. Admittedly, squad-level attachments are probably going to be less common, but not impossible.

 

Tech-priest ... varies, but they're going to be in most regiments in some form. Again, they're more likely to be an ad hoc/specific mission attachment at the squad level, depending on regiment type.

 

Commissars are going to be in every regiment, though probably usually only one or two for the whole regiment(well, depends on regiment size, really), except for penal legions where there'll be a lot more of them, and they can attach themselves to whatever unit or subunit they want to, though unless there's multiple commissars and they're one of the junior ones, they'll likely need to be spending most of their time with the regiment as a whole, rather than detached operations.

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I realized something on last game. While OW gives you lot of options to make your character most of them don't fit. Why? From narrative point of viev. Why would inflitration regiment have priest? Or tank crew had ogryn? Now i know that each regiment should have banned classes that will never be part of it. It makes more sense that way. So if players take specific regiment type tell them what classes they can play and what are banned. Sure core rulebook give you all options but not all should be permitted.

Every regiment has at least one priest they are there to give spiritual guidance, and insure they do not falter in battle, they can help with everything from tactical combat, to being a extra pare of hands to help wounded, to there main rule of guiding there flock to the light of the emperor.   Priests in the imperial guard can even be seen on the front line with soldiers, shouting glory and filling there hearts with courage to face the horrors that they see. 

 

The following is taken from " http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Guard"

"Horrorsuntold bedevil the soldiers of the Imperial Guard, many of whom will barely have made peace with the concept of spaceflight before they are faced by the unspeakable heresy of the alien or the Traitor. Mutation and abomination proliferate while men are slain in graphic and grisly fashion before the eyes of their horrified comrades. Often, the soldiers of the Imperial Guard must do their duty upon battlefields the mere spectacle of which may be so apocalyptic as to shake the reason of the bravest individual. In such circumstances, blind faith can prove to be potent armour for a man's soul.

For this reason, the Ministorum, also known colloquially as the Ecclesiarchy, maintains a considerable presence amongst the ranks of the Imperial Guard. Whether orating from the laudhailer-laden pulpit of a shrine-deck, or from atop piled ration crates in a hastily cleared corner of the soldiers' mess, Ministorum clergy have a huge impact upon the confidence and courage of their allotted flock. At the commencement of a campaign, most Guardsmen have been marched amongst thousands into the close-packed hold of a starship, surrounded by strange and of ten frightening sights and sounds. Their destination a tangle of mystery and rumour, their homes and families never to be seen again, such men find a refuge in the familiarity of Imperial scripture. Many newly founded regiments will cling to their religion like a drowning man clings to driftwood; it is the duty of the Ministorum to shape this fervour into something that high command can use"

 

While a tank crew would most likely not have a ogryn it is perfectly reasonable to have a few in a armoured regiment as brute muscle to help move ammunition when a loader sentential variant is not around and proved close support when required. Orgryns are often used as body guards to Commissars and officers  . My group did a fun oneshot where we were ogryn droop troopers , and where thrown out of valks, ageist our will.  The ogryn could be the tanks dedicated ammo runner, who cares if a abhuman dies? he is just there to get ammo, and when he can not, he can protect the tank from hostile infantry . While it is a bit more of a strench it would be no reason to ban a player from playing that class.

 

 

The question would be what is the narrative for these to be in the squad, for the priest maybe he or she is concerned with the squad performance in battle, or is thrilled with there performance but has decided to keep close watch as there success might be influenced by unholy powers, of course they might just be great soldiers of the Emperor or there is something foul at play.

 

If a commissar would go into the front  with a squad and the regiment ,why would a priest not ? do not forget a priest packs a shotgun, and most of the time knows how to use it. They are warriors to you know.

 

 

Sorry to insult other gms, but I find it very silly and ignorant , that you would not let your players play a class, because you can not see it fitting 100% . The Imperial guard while can be compared to a normal military organisation is not the same.  

 

Specialist classes are not hard to justify , there is no reason you should not allow a player to use them, you just have to adept a little bit .

Edited by CommissarWilliams

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