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What happened to 2nd edition?

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Exactly how is not blarring the announcement over the loudspeakers a "failure of design and imagination" It's just an iteration of the established system.

It's embarrassing in our current game market to charge or pay $60 for a poorly constructed book of copy pasted tripe rules.

 

 

Poorly constructed, this printing sure, but note this game's core also has nearly 50 or so more pages, and that seems to be the only part of the book falling out. Copy pasted, in places yes, but there's also original material happened with other games in the line and I don't seem to remember seeing you complaining there. Tripe, your opinion I supposed, but the system sells.

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I know plenty of people who were pleased with 4th edition (including several who though 3rd was terrible). 

 

I think that's the key point: the people who liked D&D4E were mainly people who hated 3/3.5, but that group was a small minority of the established D&D consumer base. And that's what FFG was looking at with Beta1: many (if not most) of the people raving about it on the Beta test forum let slip that they absolutely hate DH1, and thus were not a 'safe' target demographic to court. 

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...I greatly enjoy DH1 and I liked first beta. For different reasons and different playstyles, mind. I like gritty and grimdark, and sometimes I like taking out the dakka and blowing **** up. Different systems work better or worse for either.

 

Thing is, with some numbers tweaks in the right spot, you can target both demographics, and a few more. Take this, for example:
http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/121396-hardcore-mod/
There's no reason a few variant examples like this couldn't be in a core rule system. In several, they do show up and open them up to a broader playerbase.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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DeathbyGrotz, I think you have something there. I think the game would be vastly improved by a book of alternate mechanics. Some of the most popular and defining mechanics of other games began as alternative rules, Merits and Flaws in V:tM, Arms and Equipment Guide paved the way to 3.x D&D, and Unearthed Arcana gave us the Barbarian in 1e D&D.

Cortex kickstarted a Hack Guide recently that changed what I expect from game makers and their mechanics.

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Oh the ongoing Mewling of the "I hate DH2" crowd! Get over it already! If you can't get over it move on! We're no longer in beta and I recognise the same people spouting the same things! The verdict is in. FFG and Tim would not have opted for the expense and effort of retooling DH2 to it's current form if their feedback on the first beta hadn't been pretty convincing! Secondly, Please don't be disingenuous in your Criticism! DH2 is not OW copy pasted into a newly colored book. Only the Skills, Talents and combat system have a direct correlation. This is in order to maintain some cross correlation across the line. The CharGen is significantly different from OW or BC. The Narrative tools section, which many of us thought was the best part of the original beta, was retained completely! That entire section was entirely original and thematically well suited to an investigative game! As to not listening to their beta players, I personally already have found things in DH2 that were things I recommended during beta (Although I'm probably not the only one!). So maybe some of you should try being a little more constructive for a change!

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"Only the skills, talents and combat system have a direct correlation"

 

Dude, are you even reading what you're writing?

 

People are saying "No, I am not going to buy a book with a massive amount of identical content to another, space that could have been used for something else". If this is "mewling", I'm sorry, but I'm happy to mule and call myself an intelligent consumer.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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well it can hardly have been a surprise. everyone knew that after some initial wandering around the new system would gravitate back to something akin to DH 1.5/Only War system. A choice I personally applaud cause it means I can still use my meter and a half of old FFG W40K books in four game systems.

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"Only the skills, talents and combat system have a direct correlation"

 

Dude, are you even reading what you're writing?

 

People are saying "No, I am not going to buy a book with a massive amount of identical content to another, space that could have been used for something else". If this is "mewling", I'm sorry, but I'm happy to mule and call myself an intelligent consumer.

Yes I read what I'm writing DBG! You are welcome not to participate in ANY game if you don't like it's direction or design! As is anyone! What I have a real problem with is the amount of disingenuous hyperbole coming out of some people! DH2 is part of the 40k RPG line and thus shares many of it's operating mechanics. You're surprised at this? Is it somehow confusing? Did the Star Wars RPG change it's base mechanics from book to book? Somehow I doubt it! For people who wanted a Shiny whole new thing I don't know what to say. I did not think that decoupling the baseline 40k rpg product from the rest of the line was a good idea during the beta and I don't think so now! Obviously, I am not alone in that opinion! But saying that DH2 is simply OW in a different cover is close to being a flat out lie! while most of the basic game mechanics are intentionally similar, the rest of it is not!

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Oh the ongoing Mewling of the "I hate DH2" crowd! Get over it already! If you can't get over it move on! We're no longer in beta and I recognise the same people spouting the same things! The verdict is in. FFG and Tim would not have opted for the expense and effort of retooling DH2 to it's current form if their feedback on the first beta hadn't been pretty convincing! Secondly, Please don't be disingenuous in your Criticism! DH2 is not OW copy pasted into a newly colored book. Only the Skills, Talents and combat system have a direct correlation. This is in order to maintain some cross correlation across the line. The CharGen is significantly different from OW or BC. The Narrative tools section, which many of us thought was the best part of the original beta, was retained completely! That entire section was entirely original and thematically well suited to an investigative game! As to not listening to their beta players, I personally already have found things in DH2 that were things I recommended during beta (Although I'm probably not the only one!). So maybe some of you should try being a little more constructive for a change!

My first post was in this thread, I believe. I was a casual 40k rpg consumer that was so frustrated with the new system, I felt the urge to talk about it with others.

I've pointed out that char gen and the new sector is great.

I'm also fearful that 40k licensees are making the same blunder as GW proper, which is stagnating to obsolescence.

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Basically, people do not want to pay for content they already have. There are multiple ways to do this, or create a smart sales policy that reflects it, such as, for example:

 

-If your account has already downloaded a copy of the only war core rulebook, enjoy X % off your purchase of the DH2 core rulebook

- If you show up in the store with your physical copy of the only war book,get rebate for the DH2 one

 

Just two, off the top of my head, where you don't even need to change content to address customer concerns. Now, I'm trying to be more or less constructive here and go not "I won't buy, FU, raaargh, die!" but rather "I find this content I've already purchased to this price unreasonable, I would rather have an alternative of some sort than paying for a partially nigh identical product twice". I don't think that's hyperbole, I think that's reasonable from my end.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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Oh the ongoing Mewling of the "I hate DH2" crowd! Get over it already! If you can't get over it move on! We're no longer in beta and I recognise the same people spouting the same things! The verdict is in. FFG and Tim would not have opted for the expense and effort of retooling DH2 to it's current form if their feedback on the first beta hadn't been pretty convincing! Secondly, Please don't be disingenuous in your Criticism! DH2 is not OW copy pasted into a newly colored book. Only the Skills, Talents and combat system have a direct correlation. This is in order to maintain some cross correlation across the line. The CharGen is significantly different from OW or BC. The Narrative tools section, which many of us thought was the best part of the original beta, was retained completely! That entire section was entirely original and thematically well suited to an investigative game! As to not listening to their beta players, I personally already have found things in DH2 that were things I recommended during beta (Although I'm probably not the only one!). So maybe some of you should try being a little more constructive for a change!

My first post was in this thread, I believe. I was a casual 40k rpg consumer that was so frustrated with the new system, I felt the urge to talk about it with others.

I've pointed out that char gen and the new sector is great.

I'm also fearful that 40k licensees are making the same blunder as GW proper, which is stagnating to obsolescence.

 

Sorry gdiddy! My post wasn't really directed at you but rather at some of the perpetual haters that have been with us through the beta. I can understand you concern even if I don't entirely agree with it!

 

 

-If your account has already downloaded a copy of the only war core rulebook, enjoy X % off your purchase of the DH2 core rulebook

- If you show up in the store with your physical copy of the only war book,get rebate for the DH2 one

 

Just two, off the top of my head, where you don't even need to change content to address customer concerns. Now, I'm trying to be more or less constructive here and go not "I won't buy, FU, raaargh, die!" but rather "I find this content I've already purchased to this price unreasonable, I would rather have an alternative of some sort than paying for a partially nigh identical product twice". I don't think that's hyperbole, I think that's reasonable from my end.

 

 

These are reasonable alternatives and constructive feedback! I take these ideas in the same spirit as where the participants in the beta were given a significant discount on DH2 since they had essentially already purchased an earlier draft of it. Maybe drive thru RPG and FFG would consider such a discount where they can track the fact that people have been buying their products loyally all along (Such as by tracking a customer's library in drive thru rpg). 

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I think that people's basic problem with how DH2 came out is that it feels more like a set of house rules to run DH in the Only War system rather than a standalone core book. The character creation is new, but has some flaws that were pointed out in the beta. The narrative section is new but flawed and was not really changed at all from criticism in the beta. The new setting material is stuff that the majority of players will never interact with and is not really a key selling point for a core book. The big points of disappointment are first that the core rules for playing the game have been literally copy pasted and haven't addressed core problems with the system, and second that the new rules have carried over a number of issues from both betas without revision. The stats in this book, as in both betas and every other core book in the 40K line, all require about the same amount of work to properly convert across lines.

I think the book itself looks gorgeous and I appreciate all the work done on it, but the above two issues indicate either an unwillingness or inability to make good innovations, or a serious trepidation about changing anything for fear of alienating existing fans. The problem with that strategy is that the game isn't going to attract any new fans and it's not going to re-attract old fans who have moved on. People complaining about the book LIKE 40K and want to play it, but they're disappointed in a system they either don't find fun, or find less fun than they once did.

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 DH2 is part of the 40k RPG line and thus shares many of it's operating mechanics. You're surprised at this? Is it somehow confusing? Did the Star Wars RPG change it's base mechanics from book to book? Somehow I doubt it! For people who wanted a Shiny whole new thing I don't know what to say. I did not think that decoupling the baseline 40k rpg product from the rest of the line was a good idea during the beta and I don't think so now! Obviously, I am not alone in that opinion! But saying that DH2 is simply OW in a different cover is close to being a flat out lie! while most of the basic game mechanics are intentionally similar, the rest of it is not!

 

I, like a few people in the Beta forums, could actually see the decoupling of the older system working but only if FFG were prepared to launch a single 'core' book for all systems with 'splat' books for the different styles of play. I understand why they didn't though, this was the model followed by Whitewolf when they relaunched WoD, and despite personally loving the approach that system took it is an undeniable commercial failure. It would also deny them the money from us buying multiple corebooks/sourcebooks, but maybe I'm just being cynical there.

Either way, as has been pointed out. This IS a business. We as consumers may not agree with the decisions the company makes, but I (and I'm sure many others) can understand their reasons.

Edited by Cail

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"Only the skills, talents and combat system have a direct correlation"

 

Dude, are you even reading what you're writing?

 

People are saying "No, I am not going to buy a book with a massive amount of identical content to another, space that could have been used for something else". If this is "mewling", I'm sorry, but I'm happy to mule and call myself an intelligent consumer.

 

On the other hand, does every one who would be interested in Dark Heresy already own Only War? For example nobody in my group ever thought of buying any Only War books because we had no interest in an Imperial Guard game.  For us, DH2 would be a worthwhile purchase even if all the mechanics were 100% copy-paste from Only War.

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I don't have any DH1 books so this is definitely a good purchase for me as well. I love the 1.5 system.

 

Haters gonna hate. 

 

And the "copy-pasting" is the same with the star wars lines. People don't have any problems with that, these are just seperate product lines. FFG is still a company so yeah.

Edited by Gridash

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The SW line isn't really a fair comparison because they said from the very beginning that all 3 games would be interchangeable.

 

DH2 was supposed to be an update of DH1 (which it is in the most technical definition of the word), but it's not a new game. It's an old game with some new-ish rules and fresh artwork.

 

There have been several threads now where the consensus has been that if you didn't play DH1 or don't own OW/earlier games, then sure, DH2 will be new material for you. I've you've been around for a while and were looking for something new, DH2 is very much not that game.

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Actually, the original BI intention was for all the gamelines to be interchangable. I don't think FFG shared that vision so much, or it got screwed up somewhere along the way - its fairly easy to see the retroactive changes they tried to implement to DH1 after the purchase, and how RT was a test bed for the way they wanted to do things moving forward (for example, DH1 is the only game line to use actual money).

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Know is possibly the wrong word, but It was in one of the early advertisements for it back in 2006 when they announced the original core 3 systems (DH, RT and DW) where they boasted about the intention for cross-compatibility (and I should have used cross compatible in my last post, not interchangable, sorry). I doubt I will be able to find it to prove myself now though.

There is circumstantial evidence for it given the designers are largely the same as those who worked on whfrp2, which worked on that model. It featured a corebook, but then had 'splat' books for playing Chaos, Skaven, Bretonians etc. There's also the fact that GW last "rpg", Inquisitor, had featured a cross scaling system where space marines were easily included as part of an Inquisitorial retinue, and DH1 takes the bits it doesn't from WHFRP2 from Inquisitor.

Edited by Cail

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"Only the skills, talents and combat system have a direct correlation"

 

Dude, are you even reading what you're writing?

 

People are saying "No, I am not going to buy a book with a massive amount of identical content to another, space that could have been used for something else". If this is "mewling", I'm sorry, but I'm happy to mule and call myself an intelligent consumer.

 

On the other hand, does every one who would be interested in Dark Heresy already own Only War? For example nobody in my group ever thought of buying any Only War books because we had no interest in an Imperial Guard game.  For us, DH2 would be a worthwhile purchase even if all the mechanics were 100% copy-paste from Only War.

 

 

Myself, I own all DH, RT, OW books, the BC core, the DW core and the first splat book (the equivalent of the IH for DH)

I run DH as is still, ran a few OW games and some RT games as well; I’ll never run/play BC (at least I won’t go out of my way to find a BC game) because chaos sucks and I don’t care about them, nor does DW interest me (too much combat, little investigation, and those skill/talents charts, oh God, there’s just too many of them).

 

And while yes, most is copy/paste from one book to the other, but got to keep in mind that each games is a stand alone entity, that just so happens can be mix’n’match with any other game (Thought that’s mostly DH/RT/DW).

 

Someone pick RT he can play with the core; no need to buy DH to get the combat mechanics rules.  If he buys DH later, then good for him, the game is 95% similar.

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I wasn't really looking for a huge revamp and in fact like that it's a revision of DH1 to essentially 40kRPG 1.5 (OW).  As a GM I have an easier time utilizing the hundreds of dollars of books I already have that at least have some level of compatibility with this system utilizing just a bit modification to fit.  A new system would be more cumbersome for me to adapt.

 

In the end, game dynamics serve the story.  A good GM needs to make sure the game system (and none of them are perfect) gets in the way of this.  DH2 seems perfectly fine from that perspective.

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"Only the skills, talents and combat system have a direct correlation"

 

Dude, are you even reading what you're writing?

 

People are saying "No, I am not going to buy a book with a massive amount of identical content to another, space that could have been used for something else". If this is "mewling", I'm sorry, but I'm happy to mule and call myself an intelligent consumer.

 

On the other hand, does every one who would be interested in Dark Heresy already own Only War? For example nobody in my group ever thought of buying any Only War books because we had no interest in an Imperial Guard game.  For us, DH2 would be a worthwhile purchase even if all the mechanics were 100% copy-paste from Only War.

 

 

Myself, I own all DH, RT, OW books, the BC core, the DW core and the first splat book (the equivalent of the IH for DH)

I run DH as is still, ran a few OW games and some RT games as well; I’ll never run/play BC (at least I won’t go out of my way to find a BC game) because chaos sucks and I don’t care about them, nor does DW interest me (too much combat, little investigation, and those skill/talents charts, oh God, there’s just too many of them).

 

And while yes, most is copy/paste from one book to the other, but got to keep in mind that each games is a stand alone entity, that just so happens can be mix’n’match with any other game (Thought that’s mostly DH/RT/DW).

 

Someone pick RT he can play with the core; no need to buy DH to get the combat mechanics rules.  If he buys DH later, then good for him, the game is 95% similar.

 

And if he already owns one of the books, he's paying twice for partially identical content. Yes, having it has its merits for new customers. Paying full price for an update however is another issue entirely and eventually costs you customers. Convenience does not exclude an intelligent and consumer friendly sales strategy.

Edited by DeathByGrotz

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I didn't really have a problem with how DH1 worked, overall, even if the power level of the game made me feel like my starter character was an infant. I like DH2's character creation system and think it's a huge improvement, and the new setting feels fresh to me. Still, I have to admit, it feels like a retread. 60 euros is hardly a reasonable price for any core book, let alone a hastily assembled, albeit playable, update. 

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Guys again it's already been said, the core stuff is there for people that aren't buying the thing having bought it in the past.

 

This could be solved with a unified system, but why invalidate every other game out in the WH40K line to date? They'd have to make a new ruleset and call that the base core. This would have to go through a beta where the community didn't yell at them enough to back down on it and stick to their guns.

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