Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
TheFlatline

What happened to 2nd edition?

Recommended Posts

I got as far as the psychic rules in 2e and haven't finished reading.

 

I tried converting 1e characters with 2 players I have and we didn't finish we ran out of time before we got to spending xp, which I'm glad about because the whole process of aptitudes and flipping through charts and pages - per player - to spend those points to build your character is ridiculous. To say nothing of the poor psyker player who will now have to come to terms with a dreadfully subpar psyker system and a choice of crappy powers none of which represent the stuff he used to have (none of which were particularly spectacular or over the top either).

 

They charged £20 for people to buy into a playtest process and this is what they came up with?  A rule system so convoluted it is barely any different from 1e and, again, leaves no room in the rulebook for important stuff (like more than a couple of crappy vehicles) including a decent bestiary/adversary section.

 

I despair. The psyker rules are utter crap. There's no other words for it. What on earth possessed them to come up with something so fundamentally stupid? Why do i have to work with a character creation system so arcane that only the most die hard ffg fanboys and/or 40k players will perservere? YMMV but i have to believe this is all some terribl Chaos plot. None of this makes the slightest sense. No game needs 400 pages of rules. It just doesn't.

 

There's so much in this post...ugh.

 

What do you find wrong with the psyker system?

 

How much time did you have? Like 30 minutes? Conversion is difficult, it's best to start from scratch of the core concept and rebuild that way anyways. You could always have made a note card of the aptitude cost to cut down on time too.

 

Again explain why they're subpar.

 

It is extremely different than 1st edition. What's important to you? What makes the vehicles "crappy" and the bestiary/adversary section less than "decent" to you?

 

There are other words obviously as you keep going on.

 

There are plenty of games that have 250-400 pages, need is a subjective think that gets decided. What you think the system needs isn't what they thought it needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The new psyker rules are the best thing about DH2. I will fight anyone who claims otherwise. With psychic knives.

 

Or arguments. That works for me as well.

 

Note that I'm referring to the basic rules of making Focus Power tests. The powers themselves... yeah, it's generally not a great idea to directly port your power lists from a wargame when you're making a roleplaying game about secret agents and investigators. Also, I don't know why they dropped the Discipline-specific Perils from the first beta, these were awesome.

 

But the basic system of always having to choose between power and control? That stuff's brilliant, it does a world to balance psykers with the rest of the Acolytes, and it fundamentally makes sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

None of this makes the slightest sense. No game needs 400 pages of rules. It just doesn't.

Most paper and pen games run between 250-400 pages for their core books. =/ This is the average of the genre. What are you on about?

There's a world of difference between even250 pages, which is far from the minimum, and the size of DH2e Edited by signoftheserpent

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Star Wars: Age of Rebellion -> 456 pages, not including the index and stuff at the back.

 

I never imagined the amount of pages to be a problem, in fact I thought that having more content is actually better?

Edited by Gridash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you elaborate on what you don't like about the new psychic system? I would say the powers themselves are very boring. I actually gave a post in the House Rules forum where I have a full set of new and more flavorful psychic powers and some slightly revised rules to use them. Maybe that would work a little better for you?

 

 

The powers are boring. Not much more so than 1e, but the powers the psyker player had are no longer available. This means I have to convince him to play a version of a system that kleaves him with a character worse off than his original idea. That, imo, is creative suicide. You cannot expect a positive response when you put players in that situation.

 

I still have no idea what Unnatural Senses actually does, since it doesn't say, and afaik, ffg has offered no explanation.

 

The problem with the rules is the pushing/psychic phenomena aspect. Your skill at using powers has no bearing on whether they will produce a bad consequence. Conversely if you push, which is pointless, your chance of success actually decreases, making it self defeating, and your chance of producing a bad consequence inverts meaning that you will almost always produce phenomena. Again it has no bearing on your skill. The system is different from both 1e and all the other games created since. I don't understand why this is, nor why they needed to engineer so broken a solution.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's so much in this post...ugh.

 

What do you find wrong with the psyker system?

 

How much time did you have? Like 30 minutes? Conversion is difficult, it's best to start from scratch of the core concept and rebuild that way anyways. You could always have made a note card of the aptitude cost to cut down on time too.

 

Again explain why they're subpar.

 

It is extremely different than 1st edition. What's important to you? What makes the vehicles "crappy" and the bestiary/adversary section less than "decent" to you?

 

There are other words obviously as you keep going on.

 

There are plenty of games that have 250-400 pages, need is a subjective think that gets decided. What you think the system needs isn't what they thought it needed.

 

 

Conversion requires that you more or less start again. There is no direct method because the changes are not always mathematical. The new system of roles requires that the player decide which best represents his character and so I ran character creation from scratch with a view to keeping, as far as possible, the stats and talents of old. We got as far as spending experience before running out of time for the evening. At that point continuing would have worn us all out since i had to explain the Aptitude system, then each player would have had to take turns looking up the tables and cross referenceing their Aptitudes for the cost of whatever skills/talents etc they would like.

 

That's before we get to choosing starting equipment and picking psyker powers.

 

It isn't extremely different. It's not the same, but it is really not a second edition per se. 1.5 is probably a fair assessment.

 

The problem with the rules re: page count is the rules necessitate a lot of pages which means less space to give over to things like adversaries and vehicles, for example. Both are thus given short shrift indeed.

 

It's just poor planning and limited thinking. What is here isn't per se 'bad', it's just convoluted and wholly inefficient. The fluff is great, the new setting (once you get past the capital) is interesting and the production values (print issues aside) are excellent. I just wish the game rules were more progressive and less staid and irrelevant. Do i really need, in 2014, to have rules for weight and encumbrance? Really?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Star Wars: Age of Rebellion -> 456 pages, not including the index and stuff at the back.

 

I never imagined the amount of pages to be a problem, in fact I thought that having more content is actually better?

Those are very different games. Yes the books are huge, but you don't really want for material. That's the difference, the adversary section is pretty complete (not perfect). This is because the rules don't require as much space as they do for Dark Heresy, and that's the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I count around 250-300 pages in the Age of Rebellion rulebook to be actual rules. 

 

Same actually for DH2, it's about the same page count.

 

I guess I'll need to compare individual pages to eachother, text font/size next I suppose.

Edited by Gridash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For reference, I counted from -> Chapter I: Playing the Game (page 21) until Chapter VIII: Narrative Tools (ending at page 299)

 

The remaining chapters are: 

Chapter IX: The Imperium and the Inquisition -> General Information, not rules

Chapter X: The Askellon Sector -> General Information, not rules

Chapter XI: The Game Master -> General Information, not rules

Chapter XII: NPCs and Adversaries -> Extra content, not rules

Chapter XIII: Dark Pursuits -> Extra content, not rules

 

For Star Wars, I counted from -> Chapter I: Playing the Game (page 14) until Chapter VIII: The Force (ending at page 301)

 

The rest is just extra information.

Edited by Gridash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's possible that the pages are more filled in case of DH2, I'd say there is a 10-20% difference in word count.

 

Nothing I'd personally gripe about.

Edited by Gridash

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

.

It isn't extremely different. It's not the same, but it is really not a second edition per se. 1.5 is probably a fair assessment.

 

The problem with the rules re: page count is the rules necessitate a lot of pages which means less space to give over to things like adversaries and vehicles, for example. Both are thus given short shrift indeed.

 

It's just poor planning and limited thinking. What is here isn't per se 'bad', it's just convoluted and wholly inefficient. The fluff is great, the new setting (once you get past the capital) is interesting and the production values (print issues aside) are excellent. I just wish the game rules were more progressive and less staid and irrelevant. Do i really need, in 2014, to have rules for weight and encumbrance? Really?

 

 

Fair to you, not to me. They're similar to the last game they released, which is very different from 1st edition.

 

And yet if the rules were more sparce having extra vehicles and villains would be useless.

 

In what way is it inefficient? They obviously think the rules are relevant. They wouldn't have put them in there otherwise. If you don't want to use them, don't take that tool out of the toolbox.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 Do i really need, in 2014, to have rules for weight and encumbrance? Really?

 

:lol:

 

If they didn't include them, you'll have people going wtf, they don't even take weight and encumbrance into account. Realism !? !?

 

Whatever FFG does, some people will be displeased.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do i really need, in 2014, to have rules for weight and encumbrance? Really?

 

With the phrase "Full battle rattle" having entered the public consciousness as a result of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan, I think encumbrance is even more relevant in 2014.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you elaborate on what you don't like about the new psychic system? I would say the powers themselves are very boring. I actually gave a post in the House Rules forum where I have a full set of new and more flavorful psychic powers and some slightly revised rules to use them. Maybe that would work a little better for you?

 

The powers are boring. Not much more so than 1e, but the powers the psyker player had are no longer available. This means I have to convince him to play a version of a system that kleaves him with a character worse off than his original idea. That, imo, is creative suicide. You cannot expect a positive response when you put players in that situation.

 

I still have no idea what Unnatural Senses actually does, since it doesn't say, and afaik, ffg has offered no explanation.

 

The problem with the rules is the pushing/psychic phenomena aspect. Your skill at using powers has no bearing on whether they will produce a bad consequence. Conversely if you push, which is pointless, your chance of success actually decreases, making it self defeating, and your chance of producing a bad consequence inverts meaning that you will almost always produce phenomena. Again it has no bearing on your skill. The system is different from both 1e and all the other games created since. I don't understand why this is, nor why they needed to engineer so broken a solution.

I agree with your points about boring powers and Unnatural Senses being a pretty useless ability as written. But you keep mentioning that your likelihood of phenomena isn't related to your skill. This wasn't really the case in the old dark heresy, either. You could get a decent bonus to your roll from willpower, but you'd still have an immediate 1 in 10 chance of phenomena if you rolled a die. Your "skill" with the power didn't really reduce the chance of phenomena beyond possibly allowing you to roll less dice, even though your actual Psy rating would increase the chance of phenomena if you took advantage of higher levels. So unless you were using some house rules for psychic powers, the new system itself isn't really any worse in that respect. Honestly, I think the system itself is an improvement, even though it's not really that great itself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Risk of phenomena isn't dependent on one's skill because the Warp is fickle, and no psyker is supposed to be entirely free of it's dangers.

 

What the new psychic rules bring to the table is a more consistent structure with interesting implications for gameplay, as it clearly separates your power (represented by Psy Rating) from your ability to use it (represented by your Focus Power test). This is a cool thing because instead of an ongoing, linear increase in power that was seen in the previous rules, you are now constantly forced to choose between the amount of power you want to exert and the amount of control you want to have over the effect. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet if the rules were more sparce having extra vehicles and villains would be useless.

 

In what way is it inefficient? They obviously think the rules are relevant. They wouldn't have put them in there otherwise. If you don't want to use them, don't take that tool out of the toolbox.

 

 

I don't grant you that assertion. There's nop reason to assume they would be useless.

 

Buying a rulebook full of rules I don't want to use is not an ideal condition.

 

The rules are inefficient because they are clunky and convoluted. Yes YMMV, that goes without saying, however it is hard to argue cogently these are objectively efficient rules.

 

 

 

 Do i really need, in 2014, to have rules for weight and encumbrance? Really?

 

:lol:

 

If they didn't include them, you'll have people going wtf, they don't even take weight and encumbrance into account. Realism !? !?

 

Whatever FFG does, some people will be displeased.

 

 

 

Whatever FFG does, some people will be displeased.

 

If they didn't include them, you'll have people going wtf, they don't even take weight and encumbrance into account. Realism !? !?

 

Why do you assume that?

 

Can't a simple common sense rule be employed? PC's can't carry 100 rifles or lift Rhino transports. Simple. Do you really need the rules in a game where the board is that of the players' imaginations to need this kind of detail? As a GM I have found it a real chore.

 

 

 

Do i really need, in 2014, to have rules for weight and encumbrance? Really?

 

With the phrase "Full battle rattle" having entered the public consciousness as a result of the wars in Iraq and Afganistan, I think encumbrance is even more relevant in 2014.

 

I don't see how at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree with your points about boring powers and Unnatural Senses being a pretty useless ability as written. But you keep mentioning that your likelihood of phenomena isn't related to your skill. This wasn't really the case in the old dark heresy, either. You could get a decent bonus to your roll from willpower, but you'd still have an immediate 1 in 10 chance of phenomena if you rolled a die. Your "skill" with the power didn't really reduce the chance of phenomena beyond possibly allowing you to roll less dice, even though your actual Psy rating would increase the chance of phenomena if you took advantage of higher levels. So unless you were using some house rules for psychic powers, the new system itself isn't really any worse in that respect. Honestly, I think the system itself is an improvement, even though it's not really that great itself.

 

The old dark heresy wasn't perfect either; it was better though.

 

Surely the best approach would be to design something that actually is better.

 

It's a poor system and that's unfortunate.

 

 

Risk of phenomena isn't dependent on one's skill because the Warp is fickle, and no psyker is supposed to be entirely free of it's dangers.

 

What the new psychic rules bring to the table is a more consistent structure with interesting implications for gameplay, as it clearly separates your power (represented by Psy Rating) from your ability to use it (represented by your Focus Power test). This is a cool thing because instead of an ongoing, linear increase in power that was seen in the previous rules, you are now constantly forced to choose between the amount of power you want to exert and the amount of control you want to have over the effect. 

 

The argum,ent is always that it corresponds to the fluff. But it's more important to have a system that works. If the game experience allows a character to die at the whim of a dice roll because manifesting warp powers actually killed him and everyone around him then...something has gone wrong at the drawing board. This isn't how a system should work, regarldess of how accurate it is.

 

In the Mongoose Traveller Judge Dredd rpg it is possible to die during character creation. This is because, like in the comics, cadet judges undertake a harsh field evaluation in a live fire environment. Some die. Here agian the rules of the game mirror the source material. Here again the game collapses; would you want to die in character creation and be forced to start all over again?

 

Aren't there better ways to achieve the same result?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 Do i really need, in 2014, to have rules for weight and encumbrance? Really?

 

:lol:

 

If they didn't include them, you'll have people going wtf, they don't even take weight and encumbrance into account. Realism !? !?

 

Whatever FFG does, some people will be displeased.

 

 

Why do you assume that?

 

Can't a simple common sense rule be employed? PC's can't carry 100 rifles or lift Rhino transports. Simple. Do you really need the rules in a game where the board is that of the players' imaginations to need this kind of detail? As a GM I have found it a real chore.

 

You as a GM are the master of your own game. Discard these rules and use common sense then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

You as a GM are the master of your own game. Discard these rules and use common sense then.

You are missing the point.

 

You're also missing the point. It being, it's much easier for you to discard the encumbrance rules than it is for someone who likes encumbrance rules to make their own when they're missing from the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

You as a GM are the master of your own game. Discard these rules and use common sense then.

You are missing the point.

 

You're also missing the point. It being, it's much easier for you to discard the encumbrance rules than it is for someone who likes encumbrance rules to make their own when they're missing from the book.

 

Now you're being childish. It's not a game of 'i know you are but what am i'.

 

The point of creating rules is not that they are to be ignored. This is a dubious position to design from. If i have to change or ignore rules then something has gone wrong. There shouldn't be a problem to have to fix to begin with. Arguing that there is no problem because I can ignore rules is fallacious at best.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually, modular rules are a big thing over here. We have games with "core systems" and a slew of "optional rules" depending on where you want to apply complexity or realism, sometimes with multiple variants for the same thing. My real issue with specifically FFG's 40k line in terms of encumberance etc. is that they don't get a plausible human average right. Statting myself in FFG terms, I'd be a space marine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...