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Jolleyone

Dutch / Target Locks- not the normal question

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So here is the set up. Rookie pilot, Dutch, and Wedge are in a line (in that order). Rookie moves, does a Focus action. Dutch moves, takes target lock, and gives the ability to take a target lock to Wedge. Wedge is out of range of his first choice (shuttle, just outside range 3).

 

Does Wedge HAVE to take a target lock on another ship in range (TIE fighter coming in from behind, Rng2)

 

OR

 

Can Dutch decide to give his ability to the Rookie instead?

 

We allowed Dutch to give it to the Rookie, because it would be similar to doing a boost action to the left, and finding that that would place your ship on an obstacle, then being able to do any other action in your action bar. Hope we got it right.

 

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Dutch will give any ship in range that option.  If he gives it to Wedge then Wedge's target needs to be within TL range.  There is also NOTHING stopping him from giving it to the Rookie.  He could even give it to the Rookie if the Rookie crashed into something, landed on an asteroid, or stressed out.

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When you hand a TL from Dutch, it's similar to performing the action for the receiving pilot. Wedge declares who is the target of the TL is, and if he's out of range, then no target lock on that target. Wedge is free to declare another target, or not use the TL at all, in which case you can hand it to the Rookie instead.

And as StevenO pointed out, he can receive it even if he's stressed as it's not a "free action" that is being passed on here.

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I'm going to disagree with the previous two posters.

 

Dutch's ability:

 

 

After aqcuiring a target lock, choose another friendly ship at Range 1-2. The chosen ship may immediately acquire a target lock.

A normal target lock allows you to chose a different ship if your target ship is out of range (or chose a different action).  However nothing in either abilities says anything about passing the ability on to another ship if the first ship attempting to TL doesn't have a valid target.

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I'm going to disagree with the previous two posters.

 

Dutch's ability:

 

 

After aqcuiring a target lock, choose another friendly ship at Range 1-2. The chosen ship may immediately acquire a target lock.

A normal target lock allows you to chose a different ship if your target ship is out of range (or chose a different action).  However nothing in either abilities says anything about passing the ability on to another ship if the first ship attempting to TL doesn't have a valid target.

The big-eyed, adorable one speaks the truth. At least in a tournament, once you have chosen a ship to get the Free TL, you can't then return to the step of handing it out. Wedge in this case may TL another ship, but the Rookie can't get the TL if Wedge doesn't have a target or just doesn't want to TL anything but the shuttle.

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I'm going to disagree with the previous two posters.

 

A normal target lock allows you to chose a different ship if your target ship is out of range (or chose a different action).  However nothing in either abilities says anything about passing the ability on to another ship if the first ship attempting to TL doesn't have a valid target.

 

You may disagree but if you do YOU are wrong.

 

I say that simply because you are LYING about what I had said.  No where in my post do I say Dutch could say "go and get your TL Wedge and if that doesn't work I'll let the Rookie have it instead."  I make three points:

 

1.  IF Dutch targets Wedge with his ability Wedge must have someone within R3 to TL.

2.  There is nothing stopping Dutch from giving the Rookie the TL.

3.  I also point out that the TL is not an "Action" which allows it to happen under pretty much any condition.

 

Now perhaps I failed to comprehend what the OP was asking but nothing in my post was incorrect.  If Dutch GIVES Wedge the TL then Wedge is the one who MUST use it or lose it.  Dutch could also give the TL to the Rookie although that assumes he hadn't already given it to Wedge.  I guess when quickly read through the OP the first time I got the impression that the OP thought the Rookie couldn't accept the TL for some reason.

 

Also note that while Dutch can give ANY allied ship within range the TL that is not the same as saying he and split the option across EVERY ship.

 

Now I do agree that Parravon is mistaken when he adds the " in which case you can hand it to the Rookie instead" part at the end of one line.

 

I guess this is an example of why you need to know your distances before making choices.

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The OP was asking if he could give the Rookie the TL after discovering Wedge was out of range. I assumed that he could because generally you're not locked into most things in this game. But after thinking it through, I see that it's a timing issue. Dutch has chosen the ship, so that's done. The chosen ship must use it or lose it. Quite logical when I thought about it again.

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Relax, fly casual. Let's try to keep this board civil and friendly. We're here because we love the game. Let's not get hostile and aggressive here.

 

 

 

That's why I try to keep me rebuttal completely on point and point out why certain things may have been interpreted as they were.  I know there seems to be a lot of negativity going around lately but I try to attack only comments instead of people.

 

Perhaps it was "too much" because Eltnot is free to disagree with correct statements if desired although the indication is that the statements were not correct.

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I was just about this all depending on wether you play casual or competitive.

Then I re-read the card. Lately I have spent a lot of time disecting card text with 'may' in the text.

I found it very interesting that with Dutch acquiring a target lock you, it is bot optional to choose another friendly ship in range. You must choose a friendly ship. Tgat ship may then acquire a target lock. And this is why I beleive that you right that you are stuck with your choise og Wedge, who may aqcuire a target lock. He is not forced to do so, so if he is unable or unwilling to acquire the target lock, he doesn't have to.

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We truly don't know.

There isn't anything that covers how this sort of thing works one way or another. Truly. Can anyone quote a rule (not relating to an action) which says what happens when you measure an ability and it's out of range? What happens if you're two or three levels deep? Dutch is fun, but what about Squad Leader? If I pass a free action to an ally and try to TL but I'm out of range, does that ship have to take another action? What if there's literally no action it can take (perhaps already locked on Jax at R1), does that change it?

So we don't really have any idea for sure how these time out. The best indicator we have is he ruling concerning Expert Handling, which allows you to measure a barrel roll before choosing Expert Handling. This is part of a nearly universal trend in X-wing that doesn't penalize you for trying impossible stuff. Even under the strictest of competitive rules, for the actions they define if you try it but can't complete it, you don't lose the opportunity to try something else.

I truly wish they would provide some general rules to cover these kind of cases, but until they do I go with the nearly universal ruling standard, which is that if you can't complete the chain, you back it all up and can try again.

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We truly do know and this is what happens:

 

When Dutch acquires a target lock, we must choose another friendly ship at Range 1 to 2. 

That part is mandatory, so we do it.

 

The chosen ship may immediately acquire a target lock. 

 

The word 'may' means exactly that - the chosen ship may acquire a target lock. 

If the chosen ship can not acquire a target lock, for any reason, then nothing further happens.

There are no takebacks or rewinds, the effect ends.

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Buhallin, remember that there is an often forgotten action called Pass. Almost never used, but a valid choice if you are forced to perform an action and you don't like the other options.

Edited by StephenEsven

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The word 'may' means exactly that - the chosen ship may acquire a target lock. 

If the chosen ship can not acquire a target lock, for any reason, then nothing further happens.

There are no takebacks or rewinds, the effect ends.

"May" simply means that the player has a choice whether to use the ability or not.  That's it.  It carries no implication for success or commitment in an impossible-to-complete scenario, nor does it have any impact for cases where the player wants to do something but can't.  Your second statement there, which I bolded, is never stated anywhere by any rule or ruling that I can think of.  Can you cite any ruling where a player loses the opportunity for something they attempt that's out of range because it says "may"?  Can anyone cite a single example where you lose the use of an ability or action if it ends up being out of range, at all?

 

Here's what we actually do know: You're allowed to measure before activating abilities.  If that ability ends up being out of range, arc, whatever, you're not locked into that ability declaration.  As near as I can think of, there's not a single case in X-wing where you lose an ability activation for not meeting the requirements.  We do have at least one example in Expert Handling, which allows the parent operation (Expert Handling) to be taken back if the nested operation (the barrel roll) cannot be completed.

 

Here's what we don't know: How that applies to "nested" activations such as Dutch, action-passing abilities like Squad Leader or Lando, multi-operation abilities like R7-T1, etc.

 

So we have a broad system which universally chooses not to punish players for selecting impossible actions, up to and including a firm example of backing out to a "parent" operation rather than failing and losing the operation.  What we don't have is solid rules that cover it generally.

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Late sorta-edit:

 

I think the key point here is that we know that "first-order" effects are perfectly forgiving in X-wing.  You're never locked in to a choice which can't be completed.

 

For "You lose Dutch's handoff if the selected ship can't lock anyone" to be the right answer, we have to assume that the rules take a complete 180-degree turn for "nested" or handoff abilities - that Dutch can measure before using his ability to make sure you don't waste it, but once you make that first choice you're stuck with it, even if you then lose the use of the ability.

 

That honestly makes no sense to me.  It's certainly possible, but it's an extreme enough turnaround that I think we should have something very solid to support it before we accept that as the answer.  Convenient redefinitions of "may" just don't cut it.

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Dutch must choose another friendly ship at Range 1 to 2. 

If there isn't another friendly ship at Range 1 to 2, the ability fizzles.  Stop.

If there is another friendly ship at Range 1 to 2, it may then acquire a target lock. 

If that ship isn't able to acquire a target lock, the ability fizzles.  Stop.

The chosen ship is never forced to acquire a target lock.

Edited by TezzasGames

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Dutch must choose another friendly ship at Range 1 to 2. 

If there isn't another friendly ship at Range 1 to 2, the ability fizzles.  Stop.

If there is another friendly ship at Range 1 to 2, it may then acquire a target lock. 

If that ship isn't able to acquire a target lock, the ability fizzles.  Stop.

The chosen ship is never forced to acquire a target lock.

And again provided with a truly impressive lack of anything resembling reference.  Seriously.  I'd kinda expect that after this many posts something might have slipped in there accidentally...

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At no point in this game does an ability simply fizzle out because your first choice in target isn't valid for some reason. You always have the option of picking a new target for that ability.

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So it seems I may have been correct in my first post then. I've always thought that you weren't committed to anything if it turned out it wasn't possible. The rules for boosting, barrel rolling and target locking are all along the same lines. If it turns out your declared option isn't an option, you can choose another option or another action entirely. You're only committed if you can actually do it.

The fact that the first line on Dutch's card doesn't include the word "may" is not really a basis for commitment to the ability. I don't think it becomes "mandatory" to choose a ship just because it doesn't say "you may choose...", because the second sentence is where the option lies.

To say you "must" choose a ship seems a bit over the top. I'd feel like a bit of a tool if I had to start measuring for ships at Range 1-2, when I wasn't going to use the ability anyway.

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As Buhallin points out, "nested" interactions may not be as clear cut as they seem. In this case it gets a little fuzzy on how to rule on it, considering if it was the action you could measure before you committed to it. (page 9)

 

I like to try and get information from Frank when it is the lack of information that leads to these kinds of sticky wickets.

 

I sent this in:

 

 

A rookie, Dutch, and Wedge are together. Dutch passes off a TL to Wedge, who attempts to TL a Lambda that looks to be in range but turns out not to be.
 
Can the TL that Dutch passed to Wedge now be sent over to the Rookie instead?
 
If it cannot be done can you explain the mechanic that prevents it?
 
I'll post whatever I get back.
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At no point in this game does an ability simply fizzle out because your first choice in target isn't valid for some reason. You always have the option of picking a new target for that ability.

 

I think Tezza's point is that the chosen ship was a valid choice as far as Dutch himself is concerned (ie. it was within range 1-2). That it was unable to get a Target Lock isn't Dutch's fault.
 
It's an interesting little predicament. I'm interested to see what Frank says about it.
Edited by DR4CO
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