Take them Alive

[Wolfgang123 0]

I'm not sure if this has been answered or i just didn't find it, but i have a question about the rules.

Take them Alive (talent)

Prerequisites: Perception 35 and either Sure Strike or

Deadeye Shot

The Explorer is well versed in laying his enemies low without

killing them, able to incapacitate his targets and limit the

damage he inflicts to them. When the Explorer makes a Called

Shot attack against an enemy, he may choose to reduce the

damage he inflicts after reduction by the target’s Armour or

Toughness Bonus by a number equal to his Perception Bonus,

and inflict a level of Fatigue for each point of damage reduced

in this way. In addition, the Explorer’s familiarity with nonlethal

weaponry means that enemies do not gain the usual

bonuses from armour to resist the stunning effect of Shocking

weapons, and suffer a –10 penalty to avoid or escape any

attack with the Snare quality.

 

Thats the Take them alive talent. My question is about this part.

 

When the Explorer makes a Called

Shot attack against an enemy, he may choose to reduce the

damage he inflicts after reduction by the target’s Armour or

Toughness Bonus by a number equal to his Perception Bonus,

and inflict a level of Fatigue for each point of damage reduced

in this way. 

When it says He may choose to reduce the damage he inflicts after reduction by the targets armour or toughness bonus. Is it a typo or is it supposed to work like it reads here?

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

Welcome to the forums.

Now, I don't see why it wouldn't work exactly as stated. Is there something that appears confusing to you, if so, what?

[Wolfgang123 0]

The gm believes it should be reduced by either both or toughness. I started looking around the forums, because he asked me to find a thread talking about it. From what i understood he thinks its illogical to pass through toughness which i agree with.

 

Also thanks for the quick response and warm welcome.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Wolfgang123

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

The gm believes it should be reduced by either both or toughness. I started looking around the forums, because he asked me to find a thread talking about it. From what i understood he thinks its illogical to pass through toughness which i agree with.

 

Also thanks for the quick response and warm welcome.

 

Well, by RAW, it works exactly like any other attack, except that before applying the resulting damage, you may choose to reduce the amount of damage by an amount up to your Perception Bonus, and apply an equal amount of Fatigue.

 

There is not really any way to tinker with this formula without completely rewriting the way the Talent works mechanically. Not a way I can think of, anyway.

 

I want to stress that by RAW, applying even a single point of Fatigue is incredibly powerful (-10 to all Characteristics). Subsequent applications of Fatigue is much less impressive, but as soon as the Fatigue is greater than the Toughness Bonus, the target passes out for 10 minutes minus the Toughness Bonus.

A single Combat Round is 3-5 seconds. So. Yeah. Fatigue is strong.

[Wolfgang123 0]

So i should reduce my damage after it has been reduced by both instead of reducing it after either toughness or armour?

[WeedyGrot 148]

I want to stress that by RAW, applying even a single point of Fatigue is incredibly powerful (-10 to all Characteristics). Subsequent applications of Fatigue is much less impressive, but as soon as the Fatigue is greater than the Toughness Bonus, the target passes out for 10 minutes minus the Toughness Bonus.

 

What happens when the explorer is an Ork and their toughness bonus is 10 (or higher)? They pass out for 10-10 minutes?

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

So i should reduce my damage after it has been reduced by both instead of reducing it after either toughness or armour?

That is the only reading I can make that makes sense.

[Erathia 648]

 

I want to stress that by RAW, applying even a single point of Fatigue is incredibly powerful (-10 to all Characteristics). Subsequent applications of Fatigue is much less impressive, but as soon as the Fatigue is greater than the Toughness Bonus, the target passes out for 10 minutes minus the Toughness Bonus.

 

What happens when the explorer is an Ork and their toughness bonus is 10 (or higher)? They pass out for 10-10 minutes?

 

He sleep-WAAAAAAAAGHS.

 

I see no problem with Orks not passing out from Fatigue by the way. All the fluff indicates that Orks fight on even after sustaining wounds that should drop anyone else.

[Amazing Larry 127]

I want to stress that by RAW, applying even a single point of Fatigue is incredibly powerful (-10 to all Characteristics). Subsequent applications of Fatigue is much less impressive, but as soon as the Fatigue is greater than the Toughness Bonus, the target passes out for 10 minutes minus the Toughness Bonus.

 

My character has take them alive, it might potentially seem OP but the part that requires it be a called shot sort of dampens it's overall usefulness since it means that even if you've spent the xp to get where I have and don't take penalties for called shots they still take a full action to do which means you're usually rolling against something close to your base BS.

 

What happens when the explorer is an Ork and their toughness bonus is 10 (or higher)? They pass out for 10-10 minutes?

 

I'd rule that they remain unconcious for one minute.

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

My character has take them alive, it might potentially seem OP but the part that requires it be a called shot sort of dampens it's overall usefulness since it means that even if you've spent the xp to get where I have and don't take penalties for called shots they still take a full action to do which means you're usually rolling against something close to your base BS.

Now, the base BS is usually really good in this context, and you can perform Aim Actions before doing a Called Shot. That being said, I wouldn't say it's OP. It's powerful, but not OP, except arguably against very select opponents that for some reason have high wounds but low Toughness Bonus.

 

What happens when the explorer is an Ork and their toughness bonus is 10 (or higher)? They pass out for 10-10 minutes?

 

I'd rule that they remain unconcious for one minute.

This is another one of those things that was obviously not considered by the original development team, and then never again reviewed as things went along. In the original Dark Heresy, Unnatural Characteristics were obviously intended to be incredibly rare.

By RAW, there's a lot of things that simply cannot go unconscious from Fatigue. The rule really should be rewritten.

My knee-jerk reaction is to simply impose another -10 to all Tests until Fatigue exceeds twice the Toughness Bonus, at which point the target falls unconscious for 20 minutes minus their Toughness Bonus. If for whatever reason someone is still awake at that time, this impose yet another -10 (now we're at -30) until three times the Toughness Bonus, fall unconscious for 30 minutes minus Toughness Bonus.

If anything has a Toughness Bonus greater than 30, it doesn't really matter anymore, just give up.