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Why is Star Wars coming as $180 in rulebooks that are mostly reprinted info?

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So, which one is it? You need more than one book or it is just Firefly, or sure it can be Star Wars in just one of the systems?

I mean EotE has it all, seedy cantina's, crime lords, bountynhunters, imperial agents, storm troopers, force users, monsters, etc... Seems pretty Star Wars to me.

So you have no reason to buy Age or F&D then right?

They don't offer anything?

So you're now arguing that the core books after Edge are a rip off because you don't really need them?

Or it's just $120 to round out the "complete" material Edge provides?

Let me try this again.

None of the core books alone allow for the full spectrum of the Star Wars experience as defined by the movies.

Edge and Age support for Jedi is extremely limited.

Edge support for soldiers, Rebellion, and such is limited.

Age support for bounty hunters, smugglers, crimelords etc is very limited.

I'm not saying anything revolutionary here. It's something that was fairly explicitly stated by the designers when Edge came out.

Try running a Edge game outside of the Rebellion era and not focused on the seedy side of Star Wars. Lots of limitations and constraints.

So basically you stated it wasn't Star Wars but Firefly (you literally did) and I disagreed with that sentiment, and now it is me who is not on board with the design choices? This conversation is getting ever so much weirder.... Imthink I'll bow out before more unfounded accusations start flying my way.
Yes I literally said Firefly. But you've misconstrued my argument and focused on this one off hand statement as the whole sum of what I'm saying.

I have been a little unfair to you and overstated your position with unwarranted snark.

I'll make an honest effort to be more accurate.

Maybe you could do the same.

Edited by Jedi Ronin

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First of all GURPS is a niche of a niche with a very small but loyal fanbase.  But GURPS, like other game lines has fallen on tough times due to changes in the market.  GURPS barely publishes new material and most of their new material are reprints, or reprints with newly added material.  FFG is publishing a line that's been the number two best selling RPG on the market for over a year now.  That's likely to drop to number three here with the release of D&D, but the reality is Star Wars and GURPS aren't even in the same hemisphere in terms of sales.

 

GURPS really reminds me of Hero System, which is all but dead, for EXACTLY the same reason... publishing a comprehensive rule set, a toolkit, which really requires no supplemental material to run is not the smartest business decision, unless your audience is extremely limited... which both lines are.  There's simply no incentive to buy any of the supplemental material unless you're an uber fan.  FFG isn't interested in just getting by, they need to sell books... lots of them due to the licensing costs.

 

So I applaud FFG for their decision.  They put out a quality product, that I'm more than happy to buy.

 

 

Yancy

Edited by Gallandro

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Look, no matter how you slice it 120 bucks is a lot of scratch (we'll put aside the 180 dollar number because paying full MSRP for a book is for chumps) - however, assuming you jumped on the bandwagon when the range first launched a year ago, that's only 40 bucks in 2013, 40 for AoR just last month and 40 next year. If you cant afford 9.125 cents a day, you've got bigger problems than three volumes of redundant rulebooks.

 

Really, just cut out the Starbucks for a month and you've got it made.

Edited by Desslok

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That being said, to be fair GURPS in itself is NOT a "complete RPG experience" in itself: it has no setting, you have to buy another supplement to have one (it's the "G" in the name, and part of the "U"). Sure you can run "any genre", even from your own novels, but you'll have to match/convert/adjust the rules/powers/weapons to the game universe, and in some cases you'll end up with a different "vibe" (grittiness, heroics, etc.)

You have to do a little work if you won't want to play "gritty action film genre", yes, but many of the most obvious fixes are straight in the core rulebooks. You don't need any supplements unless you want the additional ideas/guidance/rules that exist within (and as far as the game and genre guidance goes, much of it is general good advice even outside GURPS, when you leave the mechanical ideas aside). Most of the time you just need to go "What advantages and disadvantages are suitable?"

 

But, yes, you will not get something that feels like many specific sources without a little bit of work.

 

I'm not sure what to make of this.  Yeah, they're stand alone, each focusing on some aspect of the Star Wars universe, but if you want to play Star Wars instead of Firefly in the Outer Rim you need more than just one of them, ideally you'd need all 3 to play most Star Wars games.  It seems obvious that FFG intended people to buy all 3 core books.

 

Saga Edition managed to fit "everything" into one umbrella core book just fine.

 

I am puzzled why Edge came out first instead of Rebellion, as Rebellion provides a much more iconic Star Wars experience on it's own.

If I was going to pick the game which encapsulates the original films the best I would say it is Edge. Rebellion has a very military feel to it which actually doesn't really reflect how the characters act and work in the films. The only bit that I couldn't do with Edge alone would probably be Luke's progression into a Jedi, and then as far as the films are concerned he is only one of three 3 Jedi remaining, and the other two are his mentors. Playing as a Jedi is not a core part of a Star Wars roleplaying game in my opinion.

 

Here's the problem: in my eyes, the SECR book was so comprehensive as to actually devalue most of the splatbooks and make the latter "not worth buying"... I really would not be surprised to find that a lot of Saga-period gamers felt the same way, and presumably FFG decided to adopt a business model that wasn't nearly as dependent on splatbook purchases as WotC's, though this may also have been affected by the particulars of their licensing deals.

Hmm... while you could play a game out of the Saga corebook, and I could see it could give a lot of versatility if you know how to use it (it is about combining multiclass features), but I have to say I think most of the supplements I got felt like they added value, with lots of extra character options. As the series expanded it felt like you could start to make very different characters within the 5 classes (which I feel less experienced players are likely to do), while as if you just went straight 20 levels of a class in the base book you would get rather predictable characters.

 

Could you run a game out of the corebook. Sure, as you should be able to out of any corebook, but I think the splatbooks were worthwhile. Whether d20 is a good system for Star Wars is a different question...

 

Let me try this again.

None of the core books alone allow for the full spectrum of the Star Wars experience as defined by the movies.

Edge and Age support for Jedi is extremely limited.

Edge support for soldiers, Rebellion, and such is limited.

Age support for bounty hunters, smugglers, crimelords etc is very limited.

Try running a Edge game outside of the Rebellion era and not focused on the seedy side of Star Wars. Lots of limitations and constraints.

 

While I will accept that Edge is going to have a problem providing Jedi, I don't see any problem running a traditional Rebel themed game out of it... Just because your character is referred to as a "Hired Gun career" doesn't mean you can't be a soldier. In fact I would see most traditional Star Wars RPGs focus on small groups of players working on the edge of the law, either for the rebellion or not... and Edge can do that. The only thing that doesn't support it is the obligation mechanic (easily modded/renamed/dispensed with), and the lack of certain ships in the rulebook.

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I'm pretty sure I agree with Jedi Ronin on this topic, if I'm understanding correctly. (Three books are required for the "full experience", there are lots of reasons for this, not necessarily a bad thing)

This is what I'm trying to say.

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Depends on what you consider is a "full experience". For some a full experience is a game focused on being individuals on the outskirts of society, avoiding the Empire, and basically taking what they want. For others it is the battle between good guys and bad guys that is represented by the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire. Military battles, sabotage missions, and procuring equipment. And for others it is playing Jedi or other Force users in varying scenarios. I don't think people playing just EotE or AoR feel like they are playing Star Wars any less or not getting the "full experience". Now certainly once the F&D CRB drops (or sooner with the F&D beta) people can combine elements from all three games if that is their idea of a full experience. I certainly intend to do just that. But by releasing the game as they have, I find that FFG has created a rather robust toolbox to play with.

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Depends on what you consider is a "full experience". For some a full experience is a game focused on being individuals on the outskirts of society, avoiding the Empire, and basically taking what they want. For others it is the battle between good guys and bad guys that is represented by the conflict between the Rebellion and the Empire. Military battles, sabotage missions, and procuring equipment. And for others it is playing Jedi or other Force users in varying scenarios. I don't think people playing just EotE or AoR feel like they are playing Star Wars any less or not getting the "full experience". Now certainly once the F&D CRB drops (or sooner with the F&D beta) people can combine elements from all three games if that is their idea of a full experience. I certainly intend to do just that. But by releasing the game as they have, I find that FFG has created a rather robust toolbox to play with.

I agree that some can get exactly the experience they want with just one core book. But that doesn't mean the book does the same thing for others because it doesn't offer a comprehensive Star Wars experience. It may offer everything a particular group wants for what they consider a full experience but other groups won't be able to. Nothing wrong with that.

I agree it's a good toolbox. And each core adds tools the others don't and if you want all the tools to build all that Star Wars has to offer you'll need the 3 cores.

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But the three core books are required for a COMPLETE Star Wars experience.  That doesn't mean that you can't play fun games with just one core book or that the game cannot be a Star Wars game but if you're just using one core book you are in fact constrained.

 

 

And this is exactly what I like. Constraints trigger creativity.

 

 

 

By the way, even after buying all 3 core books, you will not get a full star wars experience. That does not exist. After 3 core books, you get the 3 aspects that FFG has decided to work on. What's missing, plenty of things such as the Empire, playing a Gungan (joking)...

Edited by wirbowsky

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have you seen the size of the core EotE book?

 

imagine adding the additional races from AoR and FaD to it.

now imagine adding the additional ships.

now the additional adversaries.

now the careers, the specialisations.

force powers.

better pad out the talents as we have new ones.

skills need to be larger to accommodate warfare.

more equipment.

some fluff to explain the differences between the themes available in this massive tome.

nearly forgot duty and morality.

 

what would you suggest they cut?

as i can't see that book being capable of being physically printed.

 

for me i'm super happy about the decision as it gives everything the room it needs. it also gives people choice.

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Look at the size of that thing!

Sorry, had to do it. :D

 

I guess what's being discussed here is more of a "general-but-contains-all" format for the corebooks that adds content through supplements versus three "Partial" corebooks that can stand alone. A corebook published on that model would have had more (but not all) careers but fewer specializations, less ships (but more iconic ones), and probably not all the Force powers. The rest would have been available through sourcebooks.

 

Keep in mind there is an all-encompassing rule about RPGs that corebooks sell manifold what supplements will, though. Maybe that's part of FFG's equation.

 

For me, the good thing about the triality (?) of the Corebooks is that you have everything to have a character progress very "deep" before you run out of options. A Smuggler in EotE has a ton of option running well into the "deep end" of play. Well.. almost everything (I guess that's what career supplements are for :)). "General" corebooks are often a bit more superficial in the progression department.

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what would you suggest they cut?

I don't really care if they do three core books or not, but there is a ton of stuff that could be cut.

1) Cut down on the wordiness of the books. Just state thing simply and efficiently.

2) Eliminate equipment mods. The game is too crunchy.

3) Greatly reduce the SW fluff. There are probably 1000s of web pages that can be used for reference (or move the fluff to separate books for those that want it).

4) Put the three adventures in a separate adventure complication.

I am sure I could find more. :)

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what would you suggest they cut?

I don't really care if they do three core books or not, but there is a ton of stuff that could be cut.

1) Cut down on the wordiness of the books. Just state thing simply and efficiently.

2) Eliminate equipment mods. The game is too crunchy.

3) Greatly reduce the SW fluff. There are probably 1000s of web pages that can be used for reference (or move the fluff to separate books for those that want it).

4) Put the three adventures in a separate adventure complication.

I am sure I could find more. :)

 

 

1) I've never thought of the books as 'wordy' - especially in a narrative based game, setting the right tone and state of mind is one of the most important aspects. Coherently and accurately describing things is important, but it's not just about the skeleton of the rules.

2) Players always want customization. Especially when it comes to optimizing equipment. Modifications allow some serious distinction between two characters with the same base equipment - especially with what was originally a fairly limited list of equipment. And it doesn't necessarily have to be 'modified' by the players directly - perhaps on an ice planet they visit, a tribe of nomads has the equivalent of armored clothing with the 'mod' of cold resistance to represent, and increase the price accordingly to buy the 'default' armor there when they venture onto the wastes to track down a rare ice worm to prove their worth for the tribe.

3) We have separate books for it - tons of them. Not everyone does, nor does everyone want to shell out between twenty and fourty books per fluff book. Wookiepedia is a great reference to draw from, but personally I find it winds up too dry or with too much information. While it's nice to know how many moons there are total in the Atrelis sector, it's almost too much when all you need is an evocative line about the third largest ice moon having valuable mineral deposits which turned to crystals over the ages.

4) Since they all have very different themes, compiling the adventures together isn't that useful. I'd rather they, if going this route, compile 3 shorter Age adventures into one book, 3 shorter Edge into another, etc. It's also easier to justify for the groups out there - and I know of at least a couple - who are 'only' getting books from one line.

 

I like the approach they've taken with it. While I imagine sales/ profitability are a big factor in their direction decision, I don't think it's the only option. We've seen plenty of examples pointing towards why the way they do it works better for some groups, mine included, and I hope they don't drastically change the model we've seen.

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1) Cut down on the wordiness of the books. Just state thing simply and efficiently.
 

What you consider simple and efficient might be too brief to actually get the point across. Examples, color, details - sometimes you need verbosity to deliver accurate and useful information

 

2) Eliminate equipment mods. The game is too crunchy.

 

That's terrible. I like being able to trick out my Heavy Blaster. And you want crunchy? This game is NOWHERE near crunchy. I can find you a dozen different games with more crunch than a box of Rice Crispies. I'll find you a game engine that takes you 3 hours to build a character - who can then DIE during the character creation process.

 

This game is not crunch.

 

3) Greatly reduce the SW fluff. There are probably 1000s of web pages that can be used for reference (or move the fluff to separate books for those that want it).

 

Nonsense. If I wanted Wookiepedia, I'd surf Wookiepedia. I want my capsule descriptions to go with my stats so I can tell my players what they're shooting at. Hell, just just listen to the complaints around here when a book is released and there's no clear picture of what the ship is. Now, remove all the color text and you'll magnify those complaints by a hundred.

 

4) Put the three adventures in a separate adventure complication.

 

Having a sample game is more than just space filler. Its a tutorial to show people this is how the game works, this is how you build an adventure, this is the tone of the game we're shooting for - and "Hey, you're a novice GM! Here's something to hold your hand".

 

Not everyone comes into this hobby with a built in knowledge about running the game. . . .

Edited by Desslok

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Of course everyone has their own likes and dislikes and no matter how the game is presented some people will love it and some will hate it.

Oh yeah I almost forgot I would remove duty and obligation (yes I know this is heresy :) ).

My preference would be to just give the basics of all the different flavors and the most iconic adversaries and ships in a single book. Then produce splats that add depth to the game where you want it. Of course splats don't sell as well as core books since most people don't really want that material.

But I do understand that FFG has to make money producing products in a niche industry while having to pay a license fee so I am not complaining about their approach. I accept that these books have a small percent of the page count that is actually useful to me.

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Mine?

 

Nothing but the rules in one Core Book (okay and a core set of equipment, ships, and space).

 

Careers, Specs, more genre specific equipment and ships and fluff go in the 3 Genre Books.

 

Splats would follow with the splats have had.

 

 

 

This way I wouldn't need the AoR book to get a better explanation of how movement in ship combat works, it would have been in or have gotten Errata in the Core Rules.

 

Also in the Beginner games I would have had the rules not be simply wrong.  Simplified is fine, but wrong?  No.

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Mine?

 

Nothing but the rules in one Core Book (okay and a core set of equipment, ships, and space).

 

Careers, Specs, more genre specific equipment and ships and fluff go in the 3 Genre Books.

 

Splats would follow with the splats have had.

 

 

 

This way I wouldn't need the AoR book to get a better explanation of how movement in ship combat works, it would have been in or have gotten Errata in the Core Rules.

 

Also in the Beginner games I would have had the rules not be simply wrong.  Simplified is fine, but wrong?  No.

The problem is this works fine for us, the consumer, but it doesn't sell the max amount of books...which is what FFG is in business to do.

The squad combat rules were showcased in the AOR GM kit so that it would appeal to more people. The Mass combat rules are introduced in the Arda book to sell it to people who may not necessarily want an AOR adventure. New ships and races are introduced in each splat book to make it appeal to more people than those who the main content applies to. People trying to argue their point that the books could be set up to feed us the info more efficiently/economically (for our wallets)...and your opinions are not invalid. But each book's content is arranged in a way to get it to sell to as many people as possible... This is how it will always be. You all that have a problem with this MIGHT get lucky and get compiled books near the end of the development cycle (all the races in one book, all the ships in a book, all the items, equipment and weapons in one book, etc.) but it wont be until they've published everything, and they will also likely have new material to get all of us who already purchased all the other books to bite as well.

 

And, as I've said before, I don't have a problem with this...It keeps money flowing into this game, which keeps it alive.

Edited by Brother Bart

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