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Frosty71

Why would a psyker push?

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   So by now we've discovered the new psyker rules: +10% for every level of PS below your psy rating that you use, -10% for every level of pushing plus increased dangers in perils and such. Why would anyone ever bother to use a PS other than just 1? What is the benefit in risking a push? A beginning psyker is too unskilled to ever reliably use his powers without maximizing his bonuses to Focus Power tests, and a veteraned psyker gains enough bonuses to pretty much garantee he will succeed every time.

 

   So yeah, what is the benefit to pushing and why would you choose to use a PS other than 1?

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The effect of the power depends on the PS, so I don't see PS=1 as a natural choice.

 

I do agree that the -10% per PS on push is perhaps a little over the top, though I haven't tried it in game yet...

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   Oh okay, I guess that's an okay-ish trade off. I'm not exactly natural at understanding psychic/magic/whatever rules, but I am good at other rules and I can say that it is very much provable that the RAW is very punishing. I think it'd be more appropriate to simply add +10%/level of pushing to the phenomena and perils tables if they trigger and you are pushing.

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I think, as most Psykers will have WP 45+ and a Osy Focus (+10), even getting -20 for PR+2 shouldn't be a game breaker, if you really need the additional PR for the effect. You still could use a fate point to re-roll.

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I agree to the push adding +10 phenomena per level being a better idea.

Actually lowering your chance of the power going off doesn't make sense.

You are drawing from the warp as deeply as you can, the power should be hard to STOP.

And Gaunt, if a Psyker has 45 WP and a psy focus, why would he push?

55% is already not a great chance for a power to go off, 35 is terrible, especially if you are relying on it, which is when pushing should actually matter.

Those desperate moments when the consequences for failing might well be worse then whatever pops up on the perils table.

Or,maybe in a future book we could get new methods for getting psychic modifiers. Like spending an action or half action to focus your powers better, like an aim action.

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A Shrine World psyker can do some nasty things by pushing their powers. The aforementioned WP 45 psyker with focus would have a 55% chance to pass their psychic test if they spend a Fate point to boost their Focus Power roll and push to PR+2. This makes pushing a lot more palatable.

 

The effects of pushing a power can often be worth the risk -- some powers get a lot stronger when your PR increases. Consider Psychic Shriek -- by pushing twice, you increase the range by 20m and add 4 damage. For a psyker who normally has PR 3 (a likely value for our hypothetical WP 45 psyker), this increases the average damage of Shriek from 11.5 at normal PR to 15.5 when pushed. When attacking a Troop with damage soak 4 and 10 wounds, an average 5 PR hit will ensure a kill instead of merely wounding the enemy.

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Pushing is generally never going to be worth it. The -20 in addition to the essentially guaranteed Psychic Phenomena just won't be worth it most of the time, and a -40 for Unsanctioned Psykers makes it even worse, nevermind the uselessness of Warp Conduit.  

 

My house rule is that Sanctioned Psykers take the negative but not the increased chance for Psychic Phenomena, while Unsanctioned Psykers are the opposite. 

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I love the new psy system because with the old one increasing the chance of a psy power and also it s effect was too much.

it was easier for a psyker to hit with a power than for a fighter to hit with a weapon.

 

Now is more balanced and to increase the chance the psyker must draw less power from the warp.

 

Fair.

 

As many said the problem now is the push rule.

 

Hot to solve it? simple.

 

Push add +2 (or more) to the psyker psy power not to the power level.

 

so pushing rise the chance of "casting a spell" (sorry I'v been rised with bread and D&D) instead of decreasing it but at the increased risk of Psychic Phenomena or worse....

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The psyker system is dire.

 

Sorry, it just is.

 

The old system may have been random (unlike rolling doubles of course ;) ) but it was smoother cleaner and simpler than this convoluted mess.

 

And they've made the powers far too awkward to acquire, and less itneresting. I don't get this at all.

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I'd love to understand why you think it's less smooth.

 

I mean DH1 compared to RT, sure because it was the first iteration of pushing, but 2nd edition seems at least to me (This is a person who really only played DH1) much better. Basically across the board, sure there are some powers that aren't there that I'd like back, but the system itself just works a lot better.

 

To each their own, but 2nd edition is by no means dire.

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The psyker has to decide to push or not push. Then the nature of the psyker alters the effect of that decision.

 

Then you have to look up the rules for the power in question.

 

Then you have to calculate the Focus power difficulty number.

 

And so forth.

 

Before it was just roll d10 based on your Psy rating vs a difficulty based on the power. Much smoother.

 

 

 

It's the problem with these rules all over: the idea is sound (pushing/not pushing seems conceptually sound), but the detail is far too convoluted.

 

It's like the designers just over think every aspect of the rules.

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DH1:

 

1.  make an invocation test if you want

 

2. take the focus time of the power.

 

3 roll dice depending on psy rating a number chosen by the psyker the nature of course depending on WPB and the threshold in question.

 

4. see power for threshold which most players will have to look up even if they wrote it down because no one memorizes thresholds.

 

5. Roll to see if you beat the threshold.

 

6. Resolve power.

 

DH2:

 

1. Decide if you want to push.

 

2. Calculate the focus power roll based on the power which will likely have to be looked up.

 

3. Roll Focus Power test.

 

4. Resolve result based on psy rating used.

 

Note that numbers of separation don't necessarily indicate more ease. This is just based on my understanding of the systems in questions, I'd like to know if I'm wrong here, but frankly DH2 seems a lot smoother overall.

Edited by ThenDoctor

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You forgot Overbleed. This is basically what has been replaced by the "choose psy-rating", but in V1 this involved a lot more calculation, which differed from power to power.

 

Some gained extra effects for every 5 points, some for every 10. 

 

The old system was a MESS. The new one SEEMS more streamlined, but I've yet to play with it, so I'm not really qualified to say.

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Sure, but it makes the list even longer:

 

DH1:

 

1.  make an invocation test if you want

 

2. take the focus time of the power.

 

3 roll dice depending on psy rating a number chosen by the psyker the nature of course depending on WPB and the threshold in question.

 

4. see power for threshold which most players will have to look up even if they wrote it down because no one memorizes thresholds.

 

5. Roll to see if you beat the threshold.

 

6. Resolve power.

 

7. see power for overbleed values, and effects. Hopefully you'll still have your book open on the same page :)

 

8. Calculate by HOW MUCH you beat the threshold value, by subtracting said threshold value from the power-roll value. Divide this difference by the powers overbleed threshold. Thus what was a simple comparison (did I roll more than X?) becomes a subtraction followed by a division. Do (23-7)/5 in your head real quick. Go on!

 

9. Resolve any additional effects caused by overbleed. This can mean many additional hitrolls vs WP followed by Damagerolls for some powers. Lovely.

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I cover these under see if you beat threshold (which for me includes overbleed) and resolve power which is anything and everything to resolve. You're just trying to make it seem more piecemeal than it is. Even then you're basically helping my point so I'm not sure why we're even discussing it even further.

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In DH2, Psy Rating is the measure of your raw power, Focus Power tests are a measure of your control. Exercising more power comes at the cost of control. Hence, going beyond your limit actually impairs your control to the level of incurring roll penalties.

 

It's a good system in that it adds an element of gambling to using the fickle powers of the Warp - you want high Psy Rating for your powers to make an impact, but you also want a nice bonus on your focus power test to actually put these powers to good use, and you can't have both at the same time, but you can move the "slider" around each time you try to use your powers, so the trick is in finding the right "setting" for a given situation.

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Bur seaking in game terms you a sound player, playing a psyker will not push.

 

Just take the Telepathy Powers and try to influence a few NPCs where you need your full psy level and then try the same example where you need to push. It is always an opposed test.

 

So three standard guardsman with a WP around 30 will be a problem for a level 3 psyker. Just take the example in the book were the psyker has a resulting target number for his roll of less than 30 because of pushing.

 

Compared to the psy system in rogue trader, deathwatch, black crusade and only war noone can build a psyker character which will even dare to push. Even in an very serios situation.

 

Thats why we decided that we will use the former system until the first errata, which hopefully will give some rule changes.

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Having run a few games with psykers in them let me toss out my opinion.

The old psychic power system was a **** mess. because something everyone seems to have forgotten is for every 9 you rolled when activating a power you spawned a psychic phenomena, meaning you could conceivably spawn as many as you had Psy rating on any given roll, and if you want to know something that was a real headache it was dealing with,  looking up, rolling for effect, rolling for random variables like distance and time of the effect, and applying more than one psychic phenom at a time, and how dead it likely meant the psyker was.

DH2 is infinitely better, only ever spawning at most one at a time, well per psychic power used anyway. Now as to why someone might push..... have you read the powers? Molten beam at psy rating 4 has a minimum damage of 18, at 6 if you pushed that minimum is now 24 then Pen goes from 8 to 12 and the range from 20 to 30 meters, that's a pretty big **** difference, and then powers like gate to infinity are all based on psy rating, what if you need to go further than you can without pushing and you need to do it now? What if you need to make sure the Bloodletter goes down before he rips out your or your closest ally's heart? What do you do when when you only have one shot and you have to make sure that shot is a killer? You push, because when the effect is more important than the chance that you might miss you go balls to the wall.

 

I run pretty rough games, so pretty much from session 1 my psykers know when and why to push, what the risks are if they do and what the risks are if they don't, and most choose to lose a little control for that extra power when the situation is truly dire.

And as for the mechanics of how it works out, I think it's perfect. It's the power versus control issue, hold the hammer higher up on the handle and you control it better it hits where you want it to every time but it loses most of it's strength, hold it on the end of the handle and you hit as hard as you need to every time, but you lose the control to actually hit the target every time. Now as for the psychic phenomena I think it works right when pushing, you are reaching into the warp extra deep for more power and if you can't control it all you get is a big bag of crazy energy instead of the effect you desired, so yeah lore wise that is precisely how it should work. 

Now it makes warp conduit not worthless, but awesomely powerful and a huge gamble, fates of the world kinda thing going on, where you are willing to drop all of your fate points to make an effect happen, when you can possibly get your psy rating to levels like 17 (or 19 if unsanctioned) for an effect.....yes you can summon up the kind of powers that can save or **** a planet, your chances are slim for success, but real world changing power like that should that be difficult to do, and carry with it both a pressing need to be done and game changing consequence for failure. It is a difference maker and should never be done lightly, or often.

 

Edited for clarity

Edited by TempestSatori

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Having run a few games with psykers in them let me toss out my opinion.

The old psychic power system was a **** mess. because something everyone seems to have forgotten is for every 9 you rolled when activating a power you spawned a psychic phenomena

 

Wait that's how that was supposed to work? ....My group just added +10 to the Phenomena roll for each additional 9 rolled beyond the first, I never realized we weren't doing it right.

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