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Let's Fix Duelist's Training

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Even just the "Setback on attacks for an extra maneuver" is useful, if you use it tactically.

That is true, but from this thread it seems that folks just want Duelist's Training to provide a straight boost die so that they don't have to employ any tactical thinking and can just go with "stabbity-stab-stab" with a side order of "stab."

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Agreed, but place it in a way it doesn't HAVE TO BE TAKEN to advance in the tree.  Defensive Training replaces any Defensive qualities a weapon has, and someone who wants to invest in a "Dooku special" lightsaber (curved hilt, Lorrian Gemstone) would lose the benefit from that talent(s).

Wait wait, how would you lose the +1 to defensive bonuses?  Sure the weapon now has a default of 1 defense but that would not remove any item providing +1 to the defense rating.  Looking at the scans both the curved hilt and the Lorrian gemstone provide a +1 defense bonus mod thus raising it to 3 defense.  The multiple source rule would only apply to the base attachment benefit of 1 defense that the gemstone has.  And I've been confused on the whole multiple source rule from RAW as the EOTE defines the defense talents as adding to the defense rating, not supplanting it.  

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Even just the "Setback on attacks for an extra maneuver" is useful, if you use it tactically.

That is true, but from this thread it seems that folks just want Duelist's Training to provide a straight boost die so that they don't have to employ any tactical thinking and can just go with "stabbity-stab-stab" with a side order of "stab."

 

Do any of the other styles have a talent that is applies a benefit against groups and a setback die when attacking 1on1?

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Even just the "Setback on attacks for an extra maneuver" is useful, if you use it tactically.

That is true, but from this thread it seems that folks just want Duelist's Training to provide a straight boost die so that they don't have to employ any tactical thinking and can just go with "stabbity-stab-stab" with a side order of "stab."

 

Do any of the other styles have a talent that is applies a benefit against groups and a setback die when attacking 1on1?

 

You're not reading the power right.

 

If you are engaged with multiple foes, you may move until you are engaged with only 1. You then get a free aim action. The black die is meaningless.

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Actually, has anyone tought that maybe it is Shii-Cho Knight's Multiple Opponents that need fixing? 

It does seem too overpowered giving 1 free boost dice while engaged with more than 1 opponent. Although situational, it is not that uncommon, when you consider that most fights will have minions working close to each other, as a group.

Also, I can't understand the logic of being better at striking someone when you have other targets engaged, threatening you. Maybe Multiple Opponent's bonus should go to defense, not attack.

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Actually, has anyone tought that maybe it is Shii-Cho Knight's Multiple Opponents that need fixing? 

It does seem too overpowered giving 1 free boost dice while engaged with more than 1 opponent. Although situational, it is not that uncommon, when you consider that most fights will have minions working close to each other, as a group.

Also, I can't understand the logic of being better at striking someone when you have other targets engaged, threatening you. Maybe Multiple Opponent's bonus should go to defense, not attack.

 

Makes sense to me. They specialize in wider, harder hitting attacks (Sarlacc Sweep being a huge example), so it only makes sense that you're more likely to hit something if you've got more people around you.

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Actually, has anyone tought that maybe it is Shii-Cho Knight's Multiple Opponents that need fixing? 

It does seem too overpowered giving 1 free boost dice while engaged with more than 1 opponent. Although situational, it is not that uncommon, when you consider that most fights will have minions working close to each other, as a group.

Also, I can't understand the logic of being better at striking someone when you have other targets engaged, threatening you. Maybe Multiple Opponent's bonus should go to defense, not attack.

 

Makes sense to me. They specialize in wider, harder hitting attacks (Sarlacc Sweep being a huge example), so it only makes sense that you're more likely to hit something if you've got more people around you.

 

 

A little bit, yes. 

But if you have only 2 people engaged to you, 1 attacking from behind and other in front of you. I don't see how anyone would be better at attacking an enemy in this situation then at attacking a single engaged enemy.

That's why I think the boost die should go to defense. Shii-cho Knight should be good at defending themselves at a big melee.

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Even just the "Setback on attacks for an extra maneuver" is useful, if you use it tactically.

That is true, but from this thread it seems that folks just want Duelist's Training to provide a straight boost die so that they don't have to employ any tactical thinking and can just go with "stabbity-stab-stab" with a side order of "stab."

 

 

For me, it's not that I don't like tactical thinking, it's that I don't like the idea of a talent that is equal parts active/passive.  Make it a straight passive talent and save the active abilities of Makashi-style dueling for other talents (active talents) in the tree.

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I would just point out that Shii-Cho Knight has a talent called Multiple Opponents, which gives a boost die when fighting multiple opponents - no setback for fighting one opponent. Same tier as Duelist's Training, same xp cost, but NO drawback. Its unbalanced. You either drop the setback for Duelist's Training, or you add one when fighting single opponents to the Multiple Opponents talent.

As I noted earlier in the thread, facing off against multiple opponents carries the inherent and built-in drawback of facing multiple opponents at one time.  With some forethought and clever positioning, a Makashi Duelist with Duelist's Training can easily set up a situation so that they're only facing one opponent at a time (baring minion groups).

 

But for some in this thread, that's appearantly far too much thinking required on their part and they'd rather just hack&slash without having to put any real thought into tactics beyond "close in with nearest bad guy and hit them with my glowstick."

 

How are you arranging clever positioning in this game? Just narratively?

 

Actually, has anyone tought that maybe it is Shii-Cho Knight's Multiple Opponents that need fixing? 

It does seem too overpowered giving 1 free boost dice while engaged with more than 1 opponent. Although situational, it is not that uncommon, when you consider that most fights will have minions working close to each other, as a group.

Also, I can't understand the logic of being better at striking someone when you have other targets engaged, threatening you. Maybe Multiple Opponent's bonus should go to defense, not attack.

Defense doesn't make much sense for Shii-Cho, which is all about this long-arc attacks (I envision it as being a bit like the way Luke was swinging his lightsaber when dueling Vader at the end of RotJ, when they were under the catwalk area, and Luke's wide swings are hitting everything around him).

 

Think of Multiple Opponents as leading into (and boosting) Sarlacc Sweep, which requires Advantages to hit multiple foes.

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I would just point out that Shii-Cho Knight has a talent called Multiple Opponents, which gives a boost die when fighting multiple opponents - no setback for fighting one opponent. Same tier as Duelist's Training, same xp cost, but NO drawback. Its unbalanced. You either drop the setback for Duelist's Training, or you add one when fighting single opponents to the Multiple Opponents talent.

As I noted earlier in the thread, facing off against multiple opponents carries the inherent and built-in drawback of facing multiple opponents at one time.  With some forethought and clever positioning, a Makashi Duelist with Duelist's Training can easily set up a situation so that they're only facing one opponent at a time (baring minion groups).

 

But for some in this thread, that's appearantly far too much thinking required on their part and they'd rather just hack&slash without having to put any real thought into tactics beyond "close in with nearest bad guy and hit them with my glowstick."

 

How are you arranging clever positioning in this game? Just narratively?

 

Maneuver to go anywhere in short range. Including two steps to the side to be out of Engaged with all but 1 combatant.

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How are you arranging clever positioning in this game? Just narratively?

Spending a single Maneuver and being Narrative about it.

Dono just has this strange belief that facing multiple Minions should be like, waaaay tough, so of course getting a Boost for it is okay.

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How are you arranging clever positioning in this game? Just narratively?

Spending a single Maneuver and being Narrative about it.Dono just has this strange belief that facing multiple Minions should be like, waaaay tough, so of course getting a Boost for it is okay.
Have actually been in a real fight having to face off with several people looking to bash your skull in at the same time? I'm speaking from real-life experience that the mook chivalry you see in fiction is exactly that, FICTION. For someone that's not a highly-skilled combatant, having three or more guys coming at you with pool cues is a very harrowing and painful experience.

In game terms, a group of 3 minions is not assured to b taken out in a single round, leaving the Shii-Cho Knight within easy reach of opponents that want to kick his butt, and this only gets worse as the minion group increases in size. And if those minions are equipped with ranged weapons, they can easily spend a Maneuver to disengage and are now at Short Range from a target that has no inherent means within their specialization to defend against ranged attacks.

In contrast, a single Rival could be dispatched with a single attack, or at least left in bad shape from a critical injury and not with any immediate buddies to come in and try to cave your skull in or fill you full of blaster bolts from a few meters away.

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Have actually been in a real fight having to face off with several people looking to bash your skull in at the same time? I'm speaking from real-life experience...

Now you want reality?

Then Riddle Me This: How is it the Makashi suddenly forgets how to effectively fight off that group because they spent time further learning to fight one on one? Keeping in mind they weren't suffering Setback dice up to this point and no one else suffers Setback for fighting groups.

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Have actually been in a real fight having to face off with several people looking to bash your skull in at the same time? I'm speaking from real-life experience...

Now you want reality?Then Riddle Me This: How is it the Makashi suddenly forgets how to effectively fight off that group because they spent time further learning to fight one on one? Keeping in mind they weren't suffering Setback dice up to this point and no one else suffers Setback for fighting groups.
Easy. Their style of fighting gets so focused on one-on-one combat that the techniques they've perfected leave them open to attacks from other foes they are not paying direct attention to.

I've a friend that studied Kendo for a while, and he was quite good at facing a single opponent one-on-one. But he was so reliant upon the techniques he'd learned that when he was in a mock combat against more than one foe, his technique became a mess and left plenty of openings for the rest of us to exploit and score a number of hits.

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Alternate idea for Duelist's Training based on my above post:

Setback die is applied if facing a number of opponents greater than the character's ranks in Lightsaber?

Thus a less-experienced duelist can get over-whelmed, but a true master will be better able to counteract the advantage of numbers up to a point.

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Easy. Their style of fighting gets so focused on one-on-one combat that the techniques they've perfected leave them open to attacks from other foes they are not paying direct attention to.

This would make sense if it "styles" were something you switched in and out of during a fight. One could adopt a Shii-Cho stance when facing hordes and a Makashi stance when facing only one opponent. Flow into Niman if you've some flashy Force Powers you want to pop off, Soresu when feeling overwhelmed.

This is not how the styles work however. They are "always on".

As it stands a Shii-Cho master would never want to learn this Talent. Ever. Indeed, I don't see anyone actually taking this Talent as it's written by the RAW. It's subpar.

I've a friend that studied Kendo for a while, and he was quite good at facing a single opponent one-on-one. But he was so reliant upon the techniques he'd learned that when he was in a mock combat against more than one foe, his technique became a mess and left plenty of openings for the rest of us to exploit and score a number of hits.

I've studied martial arts, very briefly Taekwondo and then moved on to Aikido. When I was offered the chance to join a studio that taught Aikijutsu and Jujutsu I took it. I've also dabbled in polearm fighting (halberd fencing and naginata).

I didn't forget earlier fighting methods because I learned new ones. Why should a Makashi Duelist suddenly forget how to handle multiple foes when they could very well have been facing hordes just fine previously?

Note: I like Raykaydos' suggested alteration as well. It favors a "tactical" use of movement without unduly penalizing anyone for actually taking the Talent.

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yeti1069,

Yeah, pretty much narration, with the player describing how their maneuver to disengage from the bulk of the oppnents works.

 

That being said, perhaps if FFG does opt to keep the setback die in place in spite of the Skywalker-esque degree of whining of some in this thread, perhaps reword the talent to indicate that a minion group only counts as a single adversary for the purposes of Duelist's Training, as opposed to Multiple Opponents treating a minion group as being multiple adversaries.

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This would make sense if it "styles" were something you switched in and out of during a fight. One could adopt a Shii-Cho stance when facing hordes and a Makashi stance when facing only one opponent. Flow into Niman if you've some flashy Force Powers you want to pop off, Soresu when feeling overwhelmed.

This is not how the styles work however. They are "always on".

Can you be specific about what leads you to believe this?

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This would make sense if it "styles" were something you switched in and out of during a fight. One could adopt a Shii-Cho stance when facing hordes and a Makashi stance when facing only one opponent. Flow into Niman if you've some flashy Force Powers you want to pop off, Soresu when feeling overwhelmed.

This is not how the styles work however. They are "always on".

Can you be specific about what leads you to believe this?

 

 

He's right to a certain extent. Let's say a player takes and completely grabs everything in Shii-Cho, Makashi, and Ataru. This is the first slot of the first round of combat. Player pops Saber Swarm and uses the Hawk Bat Swoop to jump into engaged range, which happens to be engaged range with multiple opponents, and attacks (using Lightsaber/Agility, per Hawk Bat Swoop's requirements), but also increases the difficulty with Sarlacc Sweep.

 

So now, we've got a few talents from different trees to think about first. 2 Quick Strikes from Ataru, Duelist's Training from Makashi, and Multiple Opponents from Shii-Cho. Well, the player is using Agility as the basis of his lightsaber attack, as well as an Ataru Striker Talent as the basis for that special attack, but he's also using a Shii-Cho talent to boost it - so do we take from just Ataru or Shii-Cho? Both? No. Every talent activates. So the player gets 2 boost dice from Quick Strike, 1 boost from Multiple Opponents, and 1 setback from Duelist's Training.

 

So even if we just dulled it down and switched it to the player using a basic Brawn/Lightsaber attack against multiple opponents, both Duelist's Training and Multiple Opponents is still going to kick in together when against multiple engaged enemies.

 

So basically, you can say you're switching between forms, or even using a different form while you're using the talent and characteristic from another form, but everything from all of them essentially unlock for everything else (there still is characteristic requirements for specific talents though, like Hawk Bat Swoop and Agility). So much like evileeyore is saying, you can't use a Brawn/Lightsaber (Shii-Cho) and use only Multiple Opponents when you're surrounded but then pop over to Presence/Lightsaber (Makashi) and use Duelist's Training when you're going one-on-one, they're just always there.

 

And really, that's fine, it's fine as just a narrative thing, and it only makes sense that things you learn from one style improves what you know (more ranks of Reflect, Resist Disarm), and some things are more deeply-rooted in a technique and can't be used without the proper characteristic (Makashi Finish).

 

 

Basically, short of it is that unless FFG decides to start slapping "When making a Lightsaber (CHARACTERISTIC) combat check" into a bunch of talents that don't currently have them, which I think is an awful idea, that they should just remove the setback from Duelist's Training. Because if I rock at Shii-Cho and Makashi and decide the best course of action is wave my glow stick wildly against single and multiple opponents alike, why shouldn't I get my single boost die?

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Can you be specific about what leads you to believe this?

If they were not "always on" there would be no point to a Setback on this Talent. Player will "activate" the Talent when attacking one-on-one and "deactivate" it when attacking multiple foes.

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I'm speaking from real-life experience that the mook chivalry you see in fiction is exactly that, FICTION. For someone that's not a highly-skilled combatant, having three or more guys coming at you with pool cues is a very harrowing and painful experience.

 

You do realize we're playing in a universe where dashing heros swing across bottomless chasams with a damsel in distress in his arms while dozens of mooks ineffectually shoot at him, right? Where beams of light extend 3 feet out and stop? Where spacehips handle more like WWII bombers than space craft? Realistic rules of combat have no place here!

 

My take on this is: does this new talent make me more cool and awesome? No? Then pitch it out. I want to be Zorro, swinging in on the chandiler to save the princess and not haveing to worry about Captain Monasterio's mooks ganging up on me. So I'm a fan of keeping it simple: Are you fighting one man? Great, have a blue. Are you fighting five men? No blue for you - boom, done. Move onto the next PC.

Edited by Desslok

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I'm speaking from real-life experience that the mook chivalry you see in fiction is exactly that, FICTION. For someone that's not a highly-skilled combatant, having three or more guys coming at you with pool cues is a very harrowing and painful experience.

 

You do realize we're playing in a universe where dashing heros swing across bottomless chasams with a damsel in distress in his arms while dozens of mooks ineffectually shoot at him, right? Where beams of light extend 3 feet out and stop? Where spacehips handle more like WWII bombers than space craft? Realistic rules of combat have no place here

 

And yet many of the arguements against Duelist's Training applying a setback die are themselves based upon "realism" and the "realistic" notion that a "real-life" duelist wouldn't suddenly forgot how to fight multiple people at once "based upon "realism."

 

So if the above fantastical situations are just fine, what's the big stink about a duelist being in trouble when forced to use dueling techniques against a crowd?  After all, just about everything in the Star Wars universe breaks from "realism" in every possible way and thumbs its nose at the laws of physics every chance it gets.  So why should a purely fictional fighting style be subject to "realism" when very little else in the setting is?

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As for the "switching on/off" approach to updating Duelist's Training, perhaps word it so that if the character uses the talent (as an Incidental action), the effects last until the end of their next turn?

 

Thus, if they use it to get the boost die, and in between their actions they get mobbed by enemies and lack the ability to disengage from enough of them, they're stuck with the setback die since the talent is still active.

 

That should address the worries of the "realism!" crowd, since the duelist can simply choose not to use the talent on a given turn, much as a Maruader can choose not to use Ferocious Strike or a PC can choose not to use Side Step or Defensive Stance on their turn, but Duelist's Training still carries a cost if it is used.

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