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Scalding

Let's Fix Duelist's Training

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Oddly enough, it only specifies the 'short range' part in the specialization tree and is absent in the full readout in the talent chapter. It could be an error, but I don't know which section is correct.

 

I believe the version in the tree is incorrect, as it doesn't indicate any way in which the character could actually hit the target at short range.  If it did, however, it would not "stack" with Duelist's Training, which specificies "when engaged with one opponent."  (I take "engaged" here to mean "in engaged range", though it could also mean "in combat with".)

 

If it was intentional I assumed it was reflecting the Makashi Duelist using quick/fancy footwork to approach their opponent from short range into engaged range, attack, and then back out of engaged range into short range as one Action. But again, the part where it mentions short range could easily be an error.

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Duelists Training:

When engaged against a single opponent, gain 1 Boost Die to melee and lightsaber checks. When engaged against multiple opponents, you may take a setback die to melee and lighsaber checks to gain an additional maneuver(that may not exceed the limit of two maneuvers a turn).

The first time I read this, I did not like it very much, but now I think it is the best version of the Talent so far.  It gives the player all the options, which is nice.  There's nothing to keep track of, which is great.  And there are times where a setback die is worth not suffering 2 strain, so it seems fair.

 

I'll also support this change. It turns it less into a "you are punished for being swarmed" into "Your options are different when you are swarmed."

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My instructor taught me how you handle 20 opponents surrounding you. Step one cut yourself out of the circle killing one opponent. Then drag all the others around so you can kill them one at a time. You can't waste time on fancy. Cyrano de Bergerac is the right way. 

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My instructor taught me how you handle 20 opponents surrounding you. Step one cut yourself out of the circle killing one opponent. Then drag all the others around so you can kill them one at a time. You can't waste time on fancy. Cyrano de Bergerac is the right way. 

I'm gonna be an arsehat here and say "an instructor that is teaching you to fight 20 opponents is wasting your time", if you're getting ganged up on you're going to lose unless by removing yourself from the circle he means "break through and hope you're the one with the fastest legs".

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My instructor taught me how you handle 20 opponents surrounding you. Step one cut yourself out of the circle killing one opponent. Then drag all the others around so you can kill them one at a time. You can't waste time on fancy. Cyrano de Bergerac is the right way. 

I'm gonna be an arsehat here and say "an instructor that is teaching you to fight 20 opponents is wasting your time", if you're getting ganged up on you're going to lose unless by removing yourself from the circle he means "break through and hope you're the one with the fastest legs".

 

 

Or he's teaching you to fight at Pennsic in the Rapier Woods, Field, and Ruins battles where you very well could face 20 opponents at once and need to win.

Edited by DarthGM

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I posted this somewhere else and realised this is probably a better thread to post it in, concerning the Duelist's Training talent:

 

I'm all for a boost die talent... but I had this thought, in line with a suggestion above (this refers to that other thread, in the proof reading section), that instead of adding a boost die, it removes a setback die when engaged only with one opponent. This way you could also make it ranked - and add one (or two) more instance of it on the talent tree, whatever there's room for.

 

Removing setback dice adds quite a nice flavour here; it negates (melee) defence and any other setback dice imposed upon the character when in one on one combat, be it slippery surface, wind, disorient, threat/advantage imposed setback dice and so on. Sure, it's not as nice a bonus or trait as adding a boost die, not on the surface of it anyway, but against nemeses and rivals, basically powerful opponents, it can be almost more beneficial than adding one die, when you can remove up to 2 (or 3) setback dice from any source. Of course it still requires you to be engaged with only one opponent.

Edited by Jegergryte

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My instructor taught me how you handle 20 opponents surrounding you. Step one cut yourself out of the circle killing one opponent. Then drag all the others around so you can kill them one at a time. You can't waste time on fancy. Cyrano de Bergerac is the right way. 

I'm gonna be an arsehat here and say "an instructor that is teaching you to fight 20 opponents is wasting your time", if you're getting ganged up on you're going to lose unless by removing yourself from the circle he means "break through and hope you're the one with the fastest legs".

 

 

Or he's teaching you to fight at Pennsic in the Rapier Woods, Field, and Ruins battles where you very well could face 20 opponents at once and need to win.

 

 

As a HEMA/WMA fighter if you win against 20 opponents you're either exceptionally good or your opponents are atrociously bad. I'm gonna stick with my guns here and point and laugh and say "he probably teaches you an attack that starts with a spin as well?" and then move on, I had a look at the website an literally giggled, you're comparing LARPing to actual fighting.

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I'm all for a boost die talent... but I had this thought, in line with a suggestion above (this refers to that other thread, in the proof reading section), that instead of adding a boost die, it removes a setback die when engaged only with one opponent. This way you could also make it ranked - and add one (or two) more instance of it on the talent tree, whatever there's room for.

 

Removing setback dice adds quite a nice flavour here; it negates (melee) defence and any other setback dice imposed upon the character when in one on one combat, be it slippery surface, wind, disorient, threat/advantage imposed setback dice and so on. Sure, it's not as nice a bonus or trait as adding a boost die, not on the surface of it anyway, but against nemeses and rivals, basically powerful opponents, it can be almost more beneficial than adding one die, when you can remove up to 2 (or 3) setback dice from any source. Of course it still requires you to be engaged with only one opponent.

Interesting, I like this treatment as well.

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I'm all for a boost die talent... but I had this thought, in line with a suggestion above (this refers to that other thread, in the proof reading section), that instead of adding a boost die, it removes a setback die when engaged only with one opponent. This way you could also make it ranked - and add one (or two) more instance of it on the talent tree, whatever there's room for.

 

Removing setback dice adds quite a nice flavour here; it negates (melee) defence and any other setback dice imposed upon the character when in one on one combat, be it slippery surface, wind, disorient, threat/advantage imposed setback dice and so on. Sure, it's not as nice a bonus or trait as adding a boost die, not on the surface of it anyway, but against nemeses and rivals, basically powerful opponents, it can be almost more beneficial than adding one die, when you can remove up to 2 (or 3) setback dice from any source. Of course it still requires you to be engaged with only one opponent.

I agree this seems like the most fair and reasonable approach. 

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My instructor taught me how you handle 20 opponents surrounding you. Step one cut yourself out of the circle killing one opponent. Then drag all the others around so you can kill them one at a time. You can't waste time on fancy. Cyrano de Bergerac is the right way. 

I'm gonna be an arsehat here and say "an instructor that is teaching you to fight 20 opponents is wasting your time", if you're getting ganged up on you're going to lose unless by removing yourself from the circle he means "break through and hope you're the one with the fastest legs".

 

Or he's teaching you to fight at Pennsic in the Rapier Woods, Field, and Ruins battles where you very well could face 20 opponents at once and need to win.

 

As a HEMA/WMA fighter if you win against 20 opponents you're either exceptionally good or your opponents are atrociously bad. I'm gonna stick with my guns here and point and laugh and say "he probably teaches you an attack that starts with a spin as well?" and then move on, I had a look at the website an literally giggled, you're comparing LARPing to actual fighting.

SCA is not larping. We'll leave it at that. ;)

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I'm all for a boost die talent... but I had this thought, in line with a suggestion above (this refers to that other thread, in the proof reading section), that instead of adding a boost die, it removes a setback die when engaged only with one opponent. This way you could also make it ranked - and add one (or two) more instance of it on the talent tree, whatever there's room for.

 

Removing setback dice adds quite a nice flavour here; it negates (melee) defence and any other setback dice imposed upon the character when in one on one combat, be it slippery surface, wind, disorient, threat/advantage imposed setback dice and so on. Sure, it's not as nice a bonus or trait as adding a boost die, not on the surface of it anyway, but against nemeses and rivals, basically powerful opponents, it can be almost more beneficial than adding one die, when you can remove up to 2 (or 3) setback dice from any source. Of course it still requires you to be engaged with only one opponent.

I agree this seems like the most fair and reasonable approach.

I concur with you guys.

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I'm all for a boost die talent... but I had this thought, in line with a suggestion above (this refers to that other thread, in the proof reading section), that instead of adding a boost die, it removes a setback die when engaged only with one opponent. This way you could also make it ranked - and add one (or two) more instance of it on the talent tree, whatever there's room for.

 

Removing setback dice adds quite a nice flavour here; it negates (melee) defence and any other setback dice imposed upon the character when in one on one combat, be it slippery surface, wind, disorient, threat/advantage imposed setback dice and so on. Sure, it's not as nice a bonus or trait as adding a boost die, not on the surface of it anyway, but against nemeses and rivals, basically powerful opponents, it can be almost more beneficial than adding one die, when you can remove up to 2 (or 3) setback dice from any source. Of course it still requires you to be engaged with only one opponent.

I agree this seems like the most fair and reasonable approach.

I concur with you guys.

 

 

This could work pretty well.  Removal of Setback Dice for combat checks is a rare ability and tends to be really focused (removeal of Defense specifically, or "caused by darkness").

 

A blanket "Negate 1 Setback Die when making Melee or Lightsaber checks" can apply to a bevy of situations.  Critical Injuries, enviroment, Defense, GM Fiat; all sorts of sources that may impose one die.  Especially if you add the caveat "while engaged with only one opponent"

 

I'd hesitate to make it Ranked, and I'd certainly make it cost more than 10xp, but I like the idea here. 

 

Then again, with the single-engaged-opponent requirement maybe that is enough of a balance for a 10xp and to make it Ranked and have a second rank deeper into the tree.

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I think I made a similar suggestion in another thread, of reworking the talent to just remove a setback die when engaged one-on-one, but I like JegerGryte's suggestion of making it a ranked talent.  Perhaps remove one of the many instances of Parry from Row 3 to make room for a second Duelist's Training so that the character can remove 2 setback dice from their attack checks.

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I think I made a similar suggestion in another thread, of reworking the talent to just remove a setback die when engaged one-on-one, but I like JegerGryte's suggestion of making it a ranked talent.  Perhaps remove one of the many instances of Parry from Row 3 to make room for a second Duelist's Training so that the character can remove 2 setback dice from their attack checks.

Personally I'd rather see a second Defensive Training in the tree. 1 Setback removal when fighting mono a mono is pretty sweet all by itself, whereas a single Rank of Defensive Training is far, far, far, far less useful than 2 ranks.

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Agreed, but place it in a way it doesn't HAVE TO BE TAKEN to advance in the tree.  Defensive Training replaces any Defensive qualities a weapon has, and someone who wants to invest in a "Dooku special" lightsaber (curved hilt, Lorrian Gemstone) would lose the benefit from that talent(s).

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Agreed, but place it in a way it doesn't HAVE TO BE TAKEN to advance in the tree.  Defensive Training replaces any Defensive qualities a weapon has, and someone who wants to invest in a "Dooku special" lightsaber (curved hilt, Lorrian Gemstone) would lose the benefit from that talent(s).

Agreed.

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To be fair, my suggestion about replacing a Parry was made with my own suggestions of revising how the Parry/Reflect talents have their damage mitigation values calculated.  Either of the two methods would allow Makashi Duelist to lose a Parry talent and still be really good at reducing damage from melee attacks.

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To be fair, my suggestion about replacing a Parry was made with my own suggestions of revising how the Parry/Reflect talents have their damage mitigation values calculated.  Either of the two methods would allow Makashi Duelist to lose a Parry talent and still be really good at reducing damage from melee attacks.

Granted, and I think your variants of the Trees are good.

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I would just point out that Shii-Cho Knight has a talent called Multiple Opponents, which gives a boost die when fighting multiple opponents - no setback for fighting one opponent. Same tier as Duelist's Training, same xp cost, but NO drawback. Its unbalanced. You either drop the setback for Duelist's Training, or you add one when fighting single opponents to the Multiple Opponents talent.

Edited by resplendenteye

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I would just point out that Shii-Cho Knight has a talent called Multiple Opponents, which gives a boost die when fighting multiple opponents - no setback for fighting one opponent. Same tier as Duelist's Training, same xp cost, but NO drawback. Its unbalanced. You either drop the setback for Duelist's Training, or you add one when fighting single opponents to the Multiple Opponents talent.

As I noted earlier in the thread, facing off against multiple opponents carries the inherent and built-in drawback of facing multiple opponents at one time.  With some forethought and clever positioning, a Makashi Duelist with Duelist's Training can easily set up a situation so that they're only facing one opponent at a time (baring minion groups).

 

But for some in this thread, that's appearantly far too much thinking required on their part and they'd rather just hack&slash without having to put any real thought into tactics beyond "close in with nearest bad guy and hit them with my glowstick."

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Duelists Training:

When engaged against a single opponent, gain 1 Boost Die to melee and lightsaber checks. When engaged against multiple opponents, you may take a setback die to melee and lighsaber checks to gain an additional maneuver(that may not exceed the limit of two maneuvers a turn).

 

-------------------------------

 

Let me bring this back up for consideration. Even just the "Setback on attacks for an extra maneuver" is useful, if you use it tactically.

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SCA is not larping. We'll leave it at that. ;)

Yeah, yeah it is... just with a wee bit more drunken revelry and far more accurate costuming.

Outside of the heavy weapons combat, I might agree with you.

But with regards to heavy weapons, no — SCA is pretty serious stuff. If you’re a good fighter who has been trained how to quickly get past the outer gate and through the inner gate and strike and then flow right back out again and you move on to the next target, you can take out large numbers of opponents. Most people seem to know how to swing weapons, but no idea how to move their feet.

I’ve known Men-At-Arms who were good at moving their feet easily take out multiple Knights who were good at swinging.

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