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Julio

Using Scum dials for Rebels?

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Take the top part of a scum Z-95 dial and the bottom part of a rebel Z-95 dial and just put the two together with that piece of plastic that holds the dial together.

...

 

Really? Isnt the point of this thread about using rebel dials as scum dials if you dont have enough?

 

You would di it If you needed a 3rd Scum Z-95 Headhunter dial or a 2nd or 3rd Scum Firespray or a 2nd Scum Y-Wing and you wanted them to look like Scum dials.

 

But...  If you have a Rebel bottom, then you have a Rebel top.  They come in pairs.  If you have a Scum top and a Rebel bottom, then you also have a Scum bottom and a Rebel top, and that means you have a full Scum dial and a full Rebel dial.  What do you gain from mixing them?

 

In other words, if you have 4 dial pieces, what do 2 "half and half" dials give you that two standard dials don't?  This is a very strange suggestion...

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and you wanted them to look like Scum dials.

That's kinda the point. You can't make them look like scum or rebel or imperial dials. Because the only difference will be the top of the dial. The bottom half will most likely be identical.

The issue is that if someone has 2 Rebel Y-Wings and 2 Scum Y-Wings they want to be able to use the Scum and Rebel dials and play a list of 4 Rebel or 4 Scum Y-Wings...

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If all maneuvers are the same, it would be pretty stupid NOT to allow them. If there is even one difference, though, forget about it.

 

Actually since there could be rebel vs scum match-up with Z95 and/or Y on both side I can see why it won't and shouldn't be allowed in competitive play: confusion are likely to arise.

 

There again for casual play anything goes as long as it is consensual.

 

If you aren't marking your dials you should be anyway.  What happens when you are both using tie swarm. rebel on rebel and imperial on imperial games happen all the time and this fixes the problem.

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The tops are not the only things different. The backs will also likely have different colours, just as the rebel and imperials are different. I would guess the backs for Scum will be a muted dark green.

Point is, you can't and shouldn't take the two dials and mix them. It doesn't gain you anything.

Jacob

Edit: ninja'd

Edited by jkokura

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I am going to assume that the dials are the same as the rebel ones, i.e. a scum Y-wing has the same moves as a rebel Y-Wing, and so for casual, non-tournament play I see no problem in using scum dials and ships as rebel and visa versa.  In tournaments players should stick to using only scum ships and dials if they want to play a scum faction, as a tournament is a more formal way of playing.

 

As the Scum & Villainy faction is meant to be smugglers and pirates etc. I like the idea of flying a Black Sun YT-1300, (I'll use the Outer Rim Smuggler card), maybe I'll buy another YT-1300 and paint it in Black Sun colours.  As far as I understand the B Wing, X Wing & Y Wing were designed and built by corporations in the star wars universe, with the A wing designed by the Rebel Alliance.  So there is no reason why a Scum & Villainy faction could not use just about any of the Rebel ships.  No Empire ships though, they would probably be too hard for Black Sun to get hold of.

 

Remember, this is a game, fly what you want to.  Just stick to the proper factions for tournaments.

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If dials are the same, and you have at least 1 most wanted ship and dial, you will be aloud to use other copies of the same ship for different faction...that would be the rule for our local store.

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that would be the rule for our local store.

I think that's the way most people will play it. Thankfully FFG has yet to hire a rules police to break into everyone's LGS and homes and force them to play with the correct dials.

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I hate that move from FFG.

You hate that they're asking you to buy more of their product? Do you hate every company out there?

 

I hate the fact that they are asking me to buy more products which i just don't need. I hate that kind of moves, yes, and well ,not every company does that, but i like trying to be a sensible customer instead of one that just shallows the pills and the bills withouth criticizing what he finds unreasonable.

 

If the scum didn't have cross faction ships (or the dials were provided), or they were provided both options, i wouldn't care at all about the dial thing being enforced.

 

Hopefully, locally most people have common sense, so i don't think i will have any problem. 

Edited by DreadStar

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This all leads me to believe that the maneuvers are different. I typically buy 2 of each large pack. With that you can field 4 y's and 4 z's. More than enough to field a squad. And the way that these are priced its cheaper to buy the big pack than the 3 ships individually. Ffg needs to make a profit. I have no problems supporting a company that has as much care about their user base and game as they do. Read up on the wizkids fiasco at gencon if you feel that they don't respect you as customers.

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The idea was that if you have any scum dial top and a rebel/imperial (firespray) bottom you could use the two halfs to make an extra scum dial for any of the reprinted ships. However, last night it popped into my head that the ship names are on the front of the dial and it wont work like I had hoped.  

 

I was trying to think outside the box and went a little too far, my bad.

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Ok, I'm trying to think outside the box (someone left the lid open).  How would experienced players feel (would it be a saleable product) if FFG just made an Upgrade Pack for cross faction ships?  A set that just included the cards, dials and plate?  Maybe not even the unique cards, but the generic squad cards.  To get the special pilots, you would still have to purchase the S&V base set and/or expansions, but you would still be able to use the fleet of Y-Wings that you had built up as a Rebel player (or your Firesprays or whichever other ships end up crossing over).  It may not be a perfect solution, might not even be a feasible solution, but it's a thought.

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I hate that move from FFG.

You hate that they're asking you to buy more of their product? Do you hate every company out there?

 

 

He hates how they're forcing him to buy more of their product just for the top of a dial when their practical function is identical.

 

FFG looks out for its players though. A significant petition would likely get their attention and, given it's FFG, either change their mind or persuade them to be quite free with giving out dials.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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FFG looks out for its players though. A significant petition would likely get their attention and, given it's FFG, either change their mind or persuade them to be quite free with giving out dials.

 

I doubt this.  There's been a significant dislike of the way upgrade cards are packed for a long time, and there doesn't seem to be much indication that that will be changing any time soon.

 

The models are the expensive part of the kit.  Paper and cardboard sell the models.  Take away that motivation, and it all falls apart.  I don't love the system, but I understand it.  And expecting that system, which has made X-wing their top seller, to change is probably a long shot.

 

Honestly, the Scum and Villainy pack is already the most we've ever seen on this front.  The fact that we're getting crossover/upgrade cards AT ALL is unusual.  I fully expect they've accepted Most Wanted as a loss leader to prime the new faction, with some hope that it will motivate purchases of Firesprays and HWKs by people who don't already have them.

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I hate the fact that they are asking me to buy more products which i just don't need.

That's just it, you do need them. Lets say you have 2 Rebel Y-Wings and buy 2 boxes of Most Wanted. You do not have everything you need to play a 4 Rebel Y-Wing list. Even if you could use the dials you still are missing stuff. Like R2's, Ion Turrets, pilots, and base cards ect...

What you're effectively saying is you want to proxie the S&V Y-Wings or Z-95's for Rebel versions. What game company supports people using proxies of their products?

 

He hates how they're forcing him to buy more of their product just for the top of a dial when their practical function is identical.

As I point out above, it's more then just the dials that are missing.

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Ok, I'm trying to think outside the box (someone left the lid open).  How would experienced players feel (would it be a saleable product) if FFG just made an Upgrade Pack for cross faction ships?  A set that just included the cards, dials and plate?  Maybe not even the unique cards, but the generic squad cards.  To get the special pilots, you would still have to purchase the S&V base set and/or expansions, but you would still be able to use the fleet of Y-Wings that you had built up as a Rebel player (or your Firesprays or whichever other ships end up crossing over).  It may not be a perfect solution, might not even be a feasible solution, but it's a thought.

If priced correctly, i would actually like it, even if it is only the Z's and Y's dials.

Edited by DreadStar

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What you're effectively saying is you want to proxie the S&V Y-Wings or Z-95's for Rebel versions. What game company supports people using proxies of their products?

 

Depending on your background, I can kinda see the complaints here.  When GW sells a Space Marine, there isn't necessarily anything that makes a it a Dark Angel or an Ultramarine.  You color it how you want, and the model becomes what you want.  The models are central in a lot of people's minds, especially because they're the expensive bit.  How much of the $15 price tag is model, and how much is the cardboard/paper that come in it?

 

It's actually understandable that people dislike it.  Of course they want to be able to buy only the cheap bits.  But FFG makes their money by using the cheap bits to try and get you to buy more expensive bits.  That's just the way it is.

 

Not that I think it's a problem - X-wing is still a relatively cheap game overall.

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When GW sells a Space Marine, there isn't necessarily anything that makes a it a Dark Angel or an Ultramarine.

True, but on the other hand, if you want that space marine to have a heavy bolter, you have to buy a Devastator pack to get the heavy bolter, or lasscannon upgrade. Because in 40k you have to have each model armed with the same equipment you have on your sheet, because it's WYSIWYG.

You're not supposed to use a missile launcher and claim it to be a Lascannon.

I get why people would like to get a deal... Everyone wants to get stuff for less. But part of it is IMO a mistaken notion, that this is Rebel Aces lite... and people will buy it for upgrades to rebel lists. It's not that, it's a pack to help kick start the S&V faction, and as you pointed out they're already packing a ton of stuff in there.

If you have a HWK and Firespray already you're effectively getting 5 ships for less then the price of 3.

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The models are the expensive part of the kit.  Paper and cardboard sell the models.

Do you have any sort of citation for this? Anything to back it up? Do you have any idea how much the cardboard costs? How much is in the Most Wanted pack? What the wholesale cost for 50% more would be? What the cost for the extra packaging would be? I don't really know personally, but I suspect it's non-trivial.

The Most Wanted pack contains: 6 dials (12 dial halves). 2 large ship bases, 8 small ship bases, a mess of tokens. That's a lot of cardboard. 20 Pilot cards, 19 upgrade cards. It's not just three bits of painted plastic.

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Do you have any sort of citation for this? Anything to back it up?

I think that it's a reasonable assumption that in a standard expansion the model makes up the bulk of the cost. The dials, tokens and cards is not larger % of the cost.

That said I think it maybe a good bit closer in the Most Wanted pack, considering just how much cardboard you get.

Of course a large % of the cost is recouping the cost of development, playtesting, art, ect...

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The models are the expensive part of the kit.  Paper and cardboard sell the models.  Take away that motivation, and it all falls apart.  I don't love the system, but I understand it.  And expecting that system, which has made X-wing their top seller, to change is probably a long shot.

 

Upgrade cards do tend to be packaged with ships they fit with. Every card that a ship needs that's packaged in another ship also fits that ship. Advsensors is very good on the Lambda Shuttle, PTL has a pilot dedicated to it pretty much, Stealth Device looks like they had the Firespray in mind. Predator matches with the TIE defender. I doubt it's deliberate "optimisation" of sales and is more that's a ship that fits the card.

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If all maneuvers are the same, it would be pretty stupid NOT to allow them. If there is even one difference, though, forget about it.

 

I'm purposely 'vagueing' my HWK and Z95s so they will look ok in either a rebel or a S&V list.

 

I'd be annoyed if i had to buy 'S&V z95 dials' to play anywhere other than the house if they are identical.

 

I run a lot of events (airsoft weekends, conventions, gigs, clubnights)... rule no1 at every event (and i'll make it 'family friendly' here) is 'dont be a male chicken!'

 

Anyone you played who insisted you used an S&V dial purely becasue of the cosmetic artwork on it is clearly breaking my golden rule. :)

 

TBH, i think stuff like that affects the game and the star wars mythos 'not at all'....   two falcons flown by hand and chewie in a 100 point death match against two falcons flown by Han and Lando...  well tell me how that is 'star wars' :)

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