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Thebearisdriving

Bind Force Power

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When using the control  duration upgrade to sustain the bind power, does it repeat damage, mastery effects, and all other aspects of the power as originally activated?  This could dramatically affect the power level of this ability, as our group has currently been interpreting this as only the immobilizing effect is sustained. But this seems to weaken bind relative to some of the other offensive force powers (both dark side and non-dark side applications of bind).

Edited by Thebearisdriving

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I'm assuming you mean Duration instead of Control. It looks to me like you activate the power, then based on whichever ongoing is occurring at the moment, then you commit the two dice to keep those going based on the original range of the power.

 

So flipping it on immediately after you activate to use the base effect keeps all affected in an Immobilized state, but the damage is not part of the ongoing effect, so only the Immobilized effect continues. If you activated the strain damage with the base, then whenever you commit the dice, the strain damage effect continues. If you wait until the power rolls into the strength upgrade to commit the dice, again, if you activated it by spending force points on the initial roll, then that effect is what is ongoing instead of Immobilized. Finally, with the Mastery Upgrade, if the power was activated to produce the Stagger effect, then you could commit before it would run out, and continuously have all effected targets staggered. But since the critical injury effect isn't an ongoing thing, it doesn't receive the benefit of the Duration upgrade.

 

So essentially, no, the dark side gets no real bonus from Duration towards its more damaging effects, but the dark side does get to deal direct damage (ignoring all soak) to up to 4 opponents at once, and can further attempt to crit one of those targets.

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I agree with some of your logic, but my player doesn't and pointed out a critical item in the duration (my mistake before) upgrade.

 

"commit [two FR] as an incidental after successfully activating the basic power. This power remains in effect on each affected target as long as the target stays within range of the power."

 

So, he says that since the damage dealing aspects are set within the basic power, the power should deal it's damage every turn, remaining in effect.

 

Clearly also the other control upgrades may not be extended, as the duration upgrade cites only the base power (though obviously duration and range upgrades persist).

 

So I think that wording could stand to be cleaned up and clarified, as i know many people that have had differing interpretations.

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Narratively that makes sense, considering that this is essentially Force Choke (at least for Dark Side).  When Vader chokes somebody, his eyes don't bulge momentarily as he's lifted and then he hangs there until Vader puts him down.  He takes damage until he dies, then Vader drops him.

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I agree with some of your logic, but my player doesn't and pointed out a critical item in the duration (my mistake before) upgrade.

 

"commit [two FR] as an incidental after successfully activating the basic power. This power remains in effect on each affected target as long as the target stays within range of the power."

 

So, he says that since the damage dealing aspects are set within the basic power, the power should deal it's damage every turn, remaining in effect.

 

Clearly also the other control upgrades may not be extended, as the duration upgrade cites only the base power (though obviously duration and range upgrades persist).

 

So I think that wording could stand to be cleaned up and clarified, as i know many people that have had differing interpretations.

If you look at Battle Meditation, the duration upgrade also says "after successfully activating the basic power", but if that meant the basic power effect didn't happen every turn... Then there would be very little reason to commit Force dice to sustain the power. You'd be better off "casting" a new Battle Meditation every turn for a significantly greater benefit of having the basic power effect each turn that also wouldn't require you to commit any Force dice.

Edited by Demigonis

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I agree with some of your logic, but my player doesn't and pointed out a critical item in the duration (my mistake before) upgrade.

 

"commit [two FR] as an incidental after successfully activating the basic power. This power remains in effect on each affected target as long as the target stays within range of the power."

 

So, he says that since the damage dealing aspects are set within the basic power, the power should deal it's damage every turn, remaining in effect.

 

Clearly also the other control upgrades may not be extended, as the duration upgrade cites only the base power (though obviously duration and range upgrades persist).

 

So I think that wording could stand to be cleaned up and clarified, as i know many people that have had differing interpretations.

If you look at Battle Meditation, the duration upgrade also says "after successfully activating the basic power", but if that meant the basic power effect didn't happen every turn... Then there would be very little reason to commit Force dice to sustain the power. You'd be better off "casting" a new Battle Meditation every turn for a significantly greater benefit of having the basic power effect each turn that also wouldn't require you to commit any Force dice.

 

 

I'm a touch confused.  Are you saying that the power should deal damage while maintained, or not?

 

Also, should non-basic aspects of the power be maintained (control upgrades, etc)?

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Based on how the power is currently worded, I'd say that whatever effects the Force user generated on that initial activation, all of those effects continue if the Duration Upgrade is activated.

 

So if the Force user made use of a dark side Force Point to activate the power, then the target's taking damage as long as it's maintained.  Which would be in keeping with how Vader operated in the movies; he decided that somebody needed chocking, and proceeded to do exactly that until ordered to lay off or the person being choked was dead.

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so the non-basic powers would continue to affect the target, even though the duration upgrade specifically calls out only the basic power?

 

Or more specifically, when the duration upgrade refers to "this power" do they mean the basic power referenced in the first sentence, or the totality of the power's activated stats (control upgrades, etc.).

 

I just want to be sure, because Myself, another GM I talk to about his games, and my player have been discussing this, and I want to be sure I am specific about these particulars.

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It never says "hey, only the basic power is what's being sustained" I'm pretty sure it's just saying "hey, after you successfully activate the basic part of the power, this is when you can commit dice to give Bind the on-going effect."

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The wording is odd though, mentioning the basic power specifically, and then the power generally.  they could have simply said upon successfully activating the power, not the basic power. Then the duration upgrade only refers to the power from that point on, which is where the confusion lies among my peers.

 

 

Mostly this is important for the control and master upgrades, as those can thin minion ranks quickly (my Bind PC jsut got to that point and it's becoming more of an issue that needs resolution.  My GM friend has said that he does not think anything bu the basic power should be maintained.  my player says the opposite.  of course both have their own reasons, and I'm stuck in the middle seeing both sides and unsure what the actual rule means.)

 

I realize I'm being a touch nit picky, but this is something that could cause a lot of FAQ and board chatter, and can be easily resolved through some slight rewording, either way.

 

Also, would the mastery upgrade count as ongoing while maintained?  because brutal.

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Yeah, it is potentially really brutal. At least it requires an opposed check for the mastery element.

 

The language on things could be a little cleaner, but I'm pretty sure they're saying "after you've executed the basic power" because that's the first part you HAVE to accomplish before you do anything else. Then after you know the power is going to occur, then you worry about spending pips on additional features. I think that's the intent, anyhow.

Edited by Demigonis

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Maybe the description of Duration in the tree might make it clearer:  "Commit DD to sustain the ongoing effects of the power on each affected target."

 

As far as I can tell, the "ongoing effects" are any effects that last for a specified amount of time.  That would include immobilize (basic power), disorient (Strength), and stagger (Mastery).  The effects that deal immediate damage I wouldn't consider to be "ongoing", except the strain effect of the first Control, which specifies that it occurs each time the target takes an action (which is never if he's staggered).  I would also assume that activated modifiers, like Range and Magnitude, would also be included, as it's implied in the longer description.

 

As for Vader's choke ability, I'd say that he activates the basic power with at least the Mastery effect (plus whatever Range and Magnitude he needs), commits two of his FD to it so his victim is staggered continually, then uses his remaining FD on following turns to continue wounding his victim until he's dead.

 

Of course, I could be wrong :)

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Isn't that cherry picking, to include the range and magnitude upgrades, but not the damage dealing aspects of the base power though?

 

I'm not disagreeing, but I keep hearing both sides of this arguement, and both seem reasonable.

 

My main concern is IF the damage does not repeat, then Bind is a subpar power.  xp expensive, higher prerequisite, and low damage dealing.  The immobilise is nice, but not so amazing that you'd often use it, rather than just murdering face with harm or Move.

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Isn't that cherry picking, to include the range and magnitude upgrades, but not the damage dealing aspects of the base power though?

 

I'm not disagreeing, but I keep hearing both sides of this arguement, and both seem reasonable.

 

My main concern is IF the damage does not repeat, then Bind is a subpar power.  xp expensive, higher prerequisite, and low damage dealing.  The immobilise is nice, but not so amazing that you'd often use it, rather than just murdering face with harm or Move.

No, because the longer description specifically says "... each affected target" (Magnitude) and  "... as long as the target stays within range of the power" (Range).

 

There is a bit of a disconnect, however, between the long and short descriptions.  The short description says "sustain the ongoing effects", while the long description says "This power remains in effect".

 

To be honest, I think they just need to reword the description to make it clearer.

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