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Darth Ruin

It's time to ban C3P0

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Hit the falcon with more than 1 attack per turn. It cost as much as 2 hips with C-3PO on it. and C-3PO can only stop 1 attack per turn.

 

Rebel solution for Falcon, Biggs at range 3 with supporting upgrades such as luke with draw their fire and R2D2 and a couple of B wings or Y-wings for firepower.

 

Imperial solution for falcon, Howlrunner swarm throw in Backstabber there too, your opponent won't worry about firing arcs with a 360 so Backstabber will more than likely get an extra attack. If you have the points to spare swap a few academy for black squadron with opportunist or outmaneuver so as your academy blocks the falcon actions your black squadron get extra dice rolls.

 

There are always solutions, I don't think anyone is doubting that (and to a certain degree this is what balances the game), but when those solutions are so niche and specific that they perform poorly against any other list they really aren't really a solution at all.

 

Sure Biggs with Luke + R2-D2 + DTF is a solution but clearly its not a good enough squad (or part thereof) for it to be a contender vs the rest of the field in terms of consistent results for high level events.

 

the same with focusing down the YT, sure you might eventually get there but in leaving alone the 2-4 remaining ships unharmed and free to go about their business is never ideal either.

 

Currently the Tie Swarm (the Great White Shark of X-Wing as described by the FFG game designers) appears to be putting up consistently significant numbers to both be a counter to Fat Han while at the same time not folding completely to everything.else.

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But on a 1 Agility Falcon, he becomes something of a guarantee.

No it doesn't. If you're rolling a single defense die and guess zero C-3P0 has a 5/8 chance to add an evade result and a 3/8 chance to do nothing. The 3/8 chance of rolling an evade on your defense die is completely independent of C-3P0.

Edited by iPeregrine

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But on a 1 Agility Falcon, he becomes something of a guarantee.

No it doesn't. If you're rolling a single defense die and guess zero C-3P0 has a 5/8 chance to add an evade result and a 3/8 chance to do nothing. The 3/8 chance of rolling an evade on your defense die is completely independent of C-3P0.

 

 

I think this is just semantics.

 

When using C-3PO regardless of what you roll if you call 0 you will in fact be guaranteed to evade 1 hit.

 

This is clearly what is intended from his statement.

 

You even have the chance to evade a further hit should you roll an eye and happen to have an unspent focus token.

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When using C-3PO regardless of what you roll if you call 0 you will in fact be guaranteed to evade 1 hit.

So? If you have an evade token and you use C-3P0 you're guaranteed to evade at least one damage no matter what you guess or roll. Does that make C-3P0 automatic? Of course not. The fact that some event completely unrelated to C-3P0 provides evade results does not make C-3P0 any less random.

Edited by iPeregrine

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When using C-3PO regardless of what you roll if you call 0 you will in fact be guaranteed to evade 1 hit.

So? If you have an evade token and you use C-3P0 you're guaranteed to evade at least one damage no matter what you guess or roll. Does that make C-3P0 automatic? Of course not. The fact that some event completely unrelated to C-3P0 provides evade results does not make C-3P0 any less random.

 

 

Uhhhh… Yeah not quite sure what your actually trying to say there so I will put it this way:

 

If my ship with C-3PO is being attacked and the attacker rolls 1 damage, if I can use C-3PO I know that I'm not taking the damage regardless of what I roll.

 

That’s enough of a guarantee for me, the default setting for C-3PO on a YT-1300  is “Name 0” Statistically speaking for all but the most dire situations, i.e. when your guaranteed 1 damage save is not enough to save you from multiple hits that will kill you outright.

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So...

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

C-3PO crew

MF title

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

Lando

Flight Instructor

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

Chewie

R2-D2

 

I think we will see this and look back on the good old days before Wave 5 and think we had it good when we had only one YT-1300 to deal with.

 

Oh well...

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So...

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

C-3PO crew

MF title

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

Lando

Flight Instructor

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

Chewie

R2-D2

 

I think we will see this and look back on the good old days before Wave 5 and think we had it good when we had only one YT-1300 to deal with.

 

Oh well...

Are you genuinely worried about that list?

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When using C-3PO regardless of what you roll if you call 0 you will in fact be guaranteed to evade 1 hit.

So? If you have an evade token and you use C-3P0 you're guaranteed to evade at least one damage no matter what you guess or roll. Does that make C-3P0 automatic? Of course not. The fact that some event completely unrelated to C-3P0 provides evade results does not make C-3P0 any less random.

 

 

Yeah, I don't actually get what you are trying to say here. He's not saying that C-3PO is automatic, he's saying you'd be guaranteed an evade if you called 0 for the roll. Either you get that sweet evade roll or C-3PO activates, which is the definition of guaranteed.

 

I don't think C-3PO should be changed though.

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So...

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

C-3PO crew

MF title

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

Lando

Flight Instructor

 

Outer Rim Smuggler

Chewie

R2-D2

 

I think we will see this and look back on the good old days before Wave 5 and think we had it good when we had only one YT-1300 to deal with.

 

Oh well...

Are you genuinely worried about that list?

 

No.

 

It was a passing thought I had on pages 6 and 7.

 

Looked to see if it was would fit under a hundred points.

 

It does so I put it up.

 

After all...

 

Why have one double evade YT-1300 when you can have two (if your lucky) and one that regenarates.

 

As I said, a passing thought.

 

That and when wave 5 hits then we will have that Impearal crew that gives free evade as well,Ysanne Isard.ysanne-isard.png

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There's an easy way to see if a card is broken: put it on another ship. When I start seeing B-Wings and HWKS dominating with Threepio, then I'll be worried.

A fairly good point although neither of those ships can partner the effect with an evade.  Although I'm generally amused at this situation.  No one in my area is using C-3PO, and I personally think there are better ways to spend your points.

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Neither off those shops have the "health" or the primary turret of a falcon, to say nothing of the pilot abilities and efficient point cost. Also the point is not really 3po in general, it's fat falcons. It's how they are generally uninspired and not fun to play against, on top of being way too common. Remember just because a card works possibly too well in one build doesn't mean it's does so in all builds/ships.

The other problem is that when they "fix" or release other units the usual response is, "cool, now I can pair this with my falcon..."

Edited by Ayleron

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Neither off those shops have the "health" our the primary turret of a falcon either to say nothing of the pilot abilities our point cost. Also the point it's not really 3po in general it's fat falcons. It's how they are generally uninspired and not fun to play against, on top of being way too common. Remember just because a card works possibly too well in one build doesn't mean it's does so in all builds.

The other problem is that when they "fix" or release other units the usual response is, "cool, now I can pair this with my falcon..."

 

The problem is actually a perfect storm of factors. Is the YT broken by itself? Not likely, though whether or not it's fun is debatable. Is Threepio broken? See my previous post. Do they amount to a broken combo when taken together? That's subjective, but the diversity of winning lists seems to bear out that the format, while not extremely dynamic at the moment, also isn't warped. When a list becomes too dominant (again, subjective), there are two paths available to the powers that be: whip out the banhammer, which should always be the choice of last resort; or fix the problem indirectly by releasing more options and/or counters into the meta. Considering the fact that we can expect three more releases before the end of the year, it's a bit premature to declare Threepio worthy of the former option, especially since he may not even be the root of the problem.

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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I concur banhammer should always be the last resort, and that its not fully broken. Just supremely over used because it's too effective. If.the game was as perfectky balanced as we wish it was, 3rookie pilots equalling 1point more than Solo the Hutt would be an equal or superior choice. They are not. 12~ish bonus hp for 4 points of title and paranoid android is really hard to match and that is hurting diversity in many of our eyes. Competetive metas are tricky things, but I can tell you I personally have seen a falcon win and place 2nd, meaning different players both spots, anumber times in the tourneys in my area. I would rather loose to a phantom any day of the week.

Edited by Ayleron

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Neither off those shops have the "health" our the primary turret of a falcon either to say nothing of the pilot abilities our point cost. Also the point it's not really 3po in general it's fat falcons. It's how they are generally uninspired and not fun to play against, on top of being way too common. Remember just because a card works possibly too well in one build doesn't mean it's does so in all builds.

The other problem is that when they "fix" or release other units the usual response is, "cool, now I can pair this with my falcon..."

 

The problem is actually a perfect storm of factors. Is the YT broken by itself? Not likely, though whether or not it's fun is debatable. Is Threepio broken? See my previous post. Do they amount to a broken combo when taken together? That's subjective, but the diversity of winning lists seems to bear out that the format, while not extremely dynamic at the moment, also isn't warped. When a list becomes too dominant (again, subjective), there are two paths available to the powers that be: whip out the banhammer, which should always be the choice of last resort; or fix the problem indirectly by releasing more options and/or counters into the meta. Considering the fact that we can expect three more releases before the end of the year, it's a bit premature to declare Threepio worthy of the former option, especially since he may not even be the root of the problem.

 

 

I think the true root of the problem is the relatively strict time limit on tournament matches.

If anything is actively distorting the metagame, it's that. 

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wow, a rare and serious post from Wonderwaaagh.

 

Anyway, if anyone read my first post clearly, I wasn't really calling for a ban, I just wanted it restricted to Epic Play, where it belongs. Any large ship which can reliably evade 2 damage every turn are not appropriate at the 100 point level. It is overly powerful in a timed environment. 

 

The counterarguments have failed to sway me thus far: 'Shoot it with more ships!' 'Fly a TIE swarm!' 'Wedge or Outmanuever!'... done and tried. There's a reason you don't see any TIE swarms, Wedge, Outmaneuver or 5 ship Rebel builds winning tournaments- they consistently lose to Fat Falcons and Phantoms. 

 

FFG can easily also errata it to 'not being able to guess 0'. It's not a difficult fix. Just remove the certainty of the 0 evade would suffice to fix the card. 

Edited by Darth Ruin

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wow, a rare and serious post from Wonderwaaagh.

 

Anyway, if anyone read my first post clearly, I wasn't really calling for a ban, I just wanted it restricted to Epic Play, where it belongs. Any large ship which can reliably evade 2 damage every turn are not appropriate at the 100 point level. It is overly powerful in a timed environment. 

 

The counterarguments have failed to sway me thus far: 'Shoot it with more ships!' 'Fly a TIE swarm!' 'Wedge or Outmanuever!'... done and tried. There's a reason you don't see any TIE swarms, Wedge, Outmaneuver or 5 ship Rebel builds winning tournaments- they consistently lose to Fat Falcons and Phantoms. 

 

FFG can easily also errata it to 'not being able to guess 0'. It's not a difficult fix. Just remove the certainty of the 0 evade would suffice to fix the card. 

 

As it turns out, it's not up to you.

And few share your opinion. 

 

Personally, I'm bored with flying against Falcons.

I hope I never see one again.

but is it broken in any way? Nah.

Is any particular component of the Superfalcon list broken? Nah.

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wow, a rare and serious post from Wonderwaaagh.

 

Anyway, if anyone read my first post clearly, I wasn't really calling for a ban, I just wanted it restricted to Epic Play, where it belongs. Any large ship which can reliably evade 2 damage every turn are not appropriate at the 100 point level. It is overly powerful in a timed environment. 

 

The counterarguments have failed to sway me thus far: 'Shoot it with more ships!' 'Fly a TIE swarm!' 'Wedge or Outmanuever!'... done and tried. There's a reason you don't see any TIE swarms, Wedge, Outmaneuver or 5 ship Rebel builds winning tournaments- they consistently lose to Fat Falcons and Phantoms. 

 

FFG can easily also errata it to 'not being able to guess 0'. It's not a difficult fix. Just remove the certainty of the 0 evade would suffice to fix the card. 

 

Well, your thread title does use the word 'ban,' and there isn't really much of a difference between removing a card from standard play and outright banning it. I believe people have already addressed why C-3PO clearly wasn't designed for epic only, not the least of which is because it's **** near unusable in that format.

 

And for the record, the only reason TIEs have issues beating YTs is because of Engine Upgrade / Expert Handling, which had been around long before Threepio entered the scene. A more predictable YT will receive a lot of focused fire from several ships, which is where Threepio is least effective. Again, it's not one specific card but a confluence of factors. 

Edited by WonderWAAAGH

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wow, a rare and serious post from Wonderwaaagh.

 

Anyway, if anyone read my first post clearly, I wasn't really calling for a ban, I just wanted it restricted to Epic Play, where it belongs. Any large ship which can reliably evade 2 damage every turn are not appropriate at the 100 point level. It is overly powerful in a timed environment. 

 

The counterarguments have failed to sway me thus far: 'Shoot it with more ships!' 'Fly a TIE swarm!' 'Wedge or Outmanuever!'... done and tried. There's a reason you don't see any TIE swarms, Wedge, Outmaneuver or 5 ship Rebel builds winning tournaments- they consistently lose to Fat Falcons and Phantoms. 

 

FFG can easily also errata it to 'not being able to guess 0'. It's not a difficult fix. Just remove the certainty of the 0 evade would suffice to fix the card. 

 

As it turns out, it's not up to you.

And few share your opinion. 

 

Personally, I'm bored with flying against Falcons.

I hope I never see one again.

but is it broken in any way? Nah.

Is any particular component of the Superfalcon list broken? Nah.

 

 

Riot pls 

 

So you can simultaneously agree with me and disagree? Doublethink, dear chap.

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But on a 1 Agility Falcon, he becomes something of a guarantee.

No it doesn't. If you're rolling a single defense die and guess zero C-3P0 has a 5/8 chance to add an evade result and a 3/8 chance to do nothing. The 3/8 chance of rolling an evade on your defense die is completely independent of C-3P0.

 

Yes.  I know that.  Thanks for that truly useless bit of information.

 

Because it is useless.  The guarantee is not that C-3PO will do anything.  Nobody honestly cares whether C-3PO actually does anything.  Nobody picks up a defense die for the Falcon going "Come on, 62.5% chance for 3PO..." while blowing on their dice.  Lacking tokens, there's not even a need to touch the dice.  Using 3PO, calling zero - one evade will be the result.

 

That's the guarantee.  Not that 3PO will actually do anything, but that the result of the roll will be exactly one evade (again, lacking other tokens).  Is there any other outcome?  No.  So how is that not a guarantee?

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Neither off those shops have the "health" our the primary turret of a falcon either to say nothing of the pilot abilities our point cost. Also the point it's not really 3po in general it's fat falcons. It's how they are generally uninspired and not fun to play against, on top of being way too common. Remember just because a card works possibly too well in one build doesn't mean it's does so in all builds.

The other problem is that when they "fix" or release other units the usual response is, "cool, now I can pair this with my falcon..."

 

The problem is actually a perfect storm of factors. Is the YT broken by itself? Not likely, though whether or not it's fun is debatable. Is Threepio broken? See my previous post. Do they amount to a broken combo when taken together? That's subjective, but the diversity of winning lists seems to bear out that the format, while not extremely dynamic at the moment, also isn't warped. When a list becomes too dominant (again, subjective), there are two paths available to the powers that be: whip out the banhammer, which should always be the choice of last resort; or fix the problem indirectly by releasing more options and/or counters into the meta. Considering the fact that we can expect three more releases before the end of the year, it's a bit premature to declare Threepio worthy of the former option, especially since he may not even be the root of the problem.

 

 

 

wow, a rare and serious post from Wonderwaaagh.

 

Anyway, if anyone read my first post clearly, I wasn't really calling for a ban, I just wanted it restricted to Epic Play, where it belongs. Any large ship which can reliably evade 2 damage every turn are not appropriate at the 100 point level. It is overly powerful in a timed environment. 

 

The counterarguments have failed to sway me thus far: 'Shoot it with more ships!' 'Fly a TIE swarm!' 'Wedge or Outmanuever!'... done and tried. There's a reason you don't see any TIE swarms, Wedge, Outmaneuver or 5 ship Rebel builds winning tournaments- they consistently lose to Fat Falcons and Phantoms. 

 

FFG can easily also errata it to 'not being able to guess 0'. It's not a difficult fix. Just remove the certainty of the 0 evade would suffice to fix the card. 

 

Well, your thread title does use the word 'ban,' and there isn't really much of a difference between removing a card from standard play and outright banning it. I believe people have already addressed why C-3PO clearly wasn't designed for epic only, not the least of which is because it's **** near unusable in that format.

 

And for the record, the only reason TIEs have issues beating YTs is because of Engine Upgrade / Expert Handling, which had been around long before Threepio entered the scene. A more predictable YT will receive a lot of focused fire from several ships, which is where Threepio is least effective. Again, it's not one specific card but a confluence of factors. 

 

 

These posts pretty much nail my opinion on Threepio. It's a combination of factors which make the YT-1300 good, I've really yet to see 3PO on HWK-290's and B-Wing/E's, although the latter is not in wide circulation.

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