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Darth Ruin

It's time to ban C3P0

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The prevalence of Falcons in the meta owes a lot to evolutionary theory and natural selection, I.e. Survival of the fittest.

Things that have contributed to Falcon breeding programme:

Lack of Apex predators: Nobody is using the natural counters to Falcons for fear of other predators in the environment (namely phantoms). Ordnance and Swarms are both natural counters to Falcons but they are currently facing extinction due to predation by phantoms.

Top of the Food chain: Currently Falcons are the apex predator and are good at hunting other species high on the food chain such as the Phantom.

Lack of competition: Rebels have a fairly tight points costing and viable alternatives to Falcons are either suboptimal against all comers (3-ship builds) or vulnerable to predation.

Change of habitat: the introduction of a new species, the Headhunter, has caused the X-wing and B-wing to be forced out of the habitat. Because Headhunters require less space to grow the Falcons have more room to grow and importantly evolve.

Mutations: introduction of new non species specific traits has allowed mutation across all species, but these new non species specific traits are synergistic with other non-species and species specific traits that the Falcon has. Being a large species the Falcon has more room than most to evolve as new mutations start to appear and better chance for synergistic expression of adaptive traits.

Evolutionary viability: Falcons look like a strong breeding partner so many people are propagating them in the environment, which results in more success and more propagation.

Survival of the fittest: As mutations occur throughout all species and habitats the species that mutate to better adapt to the environment will continue to continue to breed (have an evolutionary advantage) until something comes along that has adaptive mutations that allow them to survive and pass on those mutations to the next generation.

Based on evolutionary theory it is highly unlikely that one single thing contributed to the evolutionary success of the Falcon species. For example, the 3PO mutation while adaptive, does not provide that much (if any) of an evolutionary advantage over the Chewbacca mutation. Given that expression of the Chewbacca gene has been around for a while indicates that 3PO mutation is unlikely to have been primarily responsible for the increased dominance of the Falcon species. In turn, nobody has mentioned two of the most important mutations of the Falcon species, the engine mutation, which allows it to avoid other predators, and the predator mutation and predator/gunner synergy that allows the Falcon to use it's time more wisely by defending itself, rather than expending energy or actions on offense.

It is much more likely that a combination of the evolutionary factors listed above have resulted in the Falcon becoming the apex predator in the current environment.

Just as no single gene breaks evolution, no single card breaks the game.

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I almost could see "banning" C-3PO in standard, 100 point play, but that is not because of its power so much as it is about its source.  In a tournament C-3PO is almost a "pay to play" card because a person needs to have purchased the Tantive IV which serves little purpose to the standard game outside of a couple upgrade cards.  "Buying" C-3PO means spending as much as some people's entire squadron.

 

I know we can say that about many things but that CR-90 seems to be the biggest offender which offer little to the standard game.  In an epic game there certainly is no reason to ban the upgrade card.

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The way to beat a Falcon build before C3PO was to keep your ships together and get as many attacks against each turn you could.  If you are trading three or four attacks for every one the Falcon shoots back at you your going to take it down pretty quick (baring dice hate).

 

The weakness of the falcons has always been relativity low firepower (for its cost) not its low agility.

 

The introduction of C3PO doesn't change the way to beat a falcon in the slightest.  I would actually prefer to face a Falcon with C3PO vs a Falcon with a Gunner.

 

The only real difference I have seen with the advent of 3PO was people stopped doing dumb things like Marksmanship on their Falcon and started Evading EVERY TURN. 

 

Sure Falcon+3PO is harder to kill than one without, but isn't that the point of an upgrade. 

 

A Black Squadron + Predator does more damage than one without it.

 

The thing IMO that has really made Falcons more powerful is all the new Toys the Empire has to play with, we are neglecting our TIE Fighters, the Falcon's natural enemy.

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A discussion on whether to ban C-3PO?

No, in the current status of the metagame. The ban this card is obviously the ranty part.

 

 

I'd recommend a new thread for a civilised discussion on the state of the metagame. The "ranty part" is in this thread's title.

 

 

The thing IMO that has really made Falcons more powerful is all the new Toys the Empire has to play with, we are neglecting our TIE Fighters, the Falcon's natural enemy.

All new toy. The other new Empire ship, the TIE defender, was written off before it even launched. But it's a good and fairly survivable ship plus HLC Brath's Crit-A-Cannon is not something a Falcon likes to fight.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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And by the way, why aren't the same people complaining about C-3PO, also complaining about Predator?   It is almost like a Target Lock, just like 3PO is almost like an evade... and like 3PO it doesn't require an action.   It is essentially the Anti-3PO.  

 

No, it's not. If C3PO simply let you reroll 1 (or even 2, against a low PS attacker or something) once per turn, I doubt it will generate the hate it does. C3PO is annoying because it turns 1 evade into an auto success (even at once per turn, this is excellent) and really it's the combo with the Falcon title for the second guaranteed evade per turn that makes it obnoxious. People are complaining about C3PO, when really it's the Falcon/3PO combo (especially late game and especially on crit-proof Chewie) that is annoying.

 

Just wait until the Falcon has access to Lone Wolf. The bitching is going to be INSANITY.

 

 

BTW, I think a simple "fix" to C3PO might be to simply say that you must guess "1" or higher (i.e., the 0 guess is no longer legal). Double or nothing, sure, but at least when you don't roll the evade you can actually get hits through.

Edited by R2ShihTzu

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Predator is on every roll. C-3PO is once per turn. One shot. Dependent on squad composition it could have up to eight shots coming at it, at something good against Falcons probably at least four. If it's bunkering down it has no focus and is using an unmodified turret too, relying on total rerolls (Han and Gunner).

 

As for critproof Chewie, he ain''t Brath-proof.

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"pay to play"

 

God I hate when people bring FtP game terminology into a paid for environment. Not only does it mean crap in this game because you are already PAYING to play, but you DON'T need the card. There is no one shoving a gun to your head, saying you need to buy this ship, to get this card, so that you can be competitive in the tournament scene. Want to know why? Because its just ONE option from many. Learn to adapt, don't blame. It is unbecoming. 

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If you don't have the Tantive IV you can't 3PO Falcon, but there are plenty of nasty Falcon setups that don't use him.

 

Uhm...  unless you're talking about Corran, Predator will activate exactly as often as C-3PO.

Or Gunner, but yeah, brain derped there. I was thinking it didn't have a Once Per Round but somehow failed to proc that as it only works on red dice and you only roll them once...

 

My post was more saying that you can blast through 3PO with multiple ships or Gunner fairly easily. If you don't have the firepower to blow through the Falcon's single evade die being hot then you're either having trouble keeping the Falcon in arc, which isn't 3PO's fault, or you didn't bring enough ships to fight a Falcon anyway, which is also not 3PO's fault. The Falcon can dodge two damage a round before being at the mercy of a single unmodified evade: TIEs get that level of evading all the time. Hell, so do X-wings. We're talking one evade roll being guaranteed to not fail a round. That's not the gamebreaking Falcon Ascendance people claim it is.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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Predator is on every roll. C-3PO is once per turn. One shot..

Uhm...  unless you're talking about Corran, Predator will activate exactly as often as C-3PO.

 

Gunner would like a word...

 

Fine - and Gunner.  You missed Cluster Missiles, though, and you didn't actually call out Luke, although I can probably forgive that one since he's really a subset of Gunner.

 

If you're going to be pedantic about listing off every single card that can provide an exception, you really should be more thorough about it.

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Predator is on every roll. C-3PO is once per turn. One shot..

Uhm...  unless you're talking about Corran, Predator will activate exactly as often as C-3PO.

 

Gunner would like a word...

 

Interestingly enough, predator + Gunner/Luke is a common upgrade path for Fat Hans... already paired with C3PO.

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I trust FFG over backseat designers.

 

I trust them too.

 

But then, I read Fel's Wrath and Saboteur's text and become suspicious again.

 

True, they're really didn't hit off with the players at all (although I know of one forummer who's actually pretty fond of Fel's Wrath). Which means they're not broken cards. When FFG is unsure they overcost. FFG occasionally make duds that people don't like as much as FFG thought they would but they've yet to break the game.

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Yay I haven't seen a random troll thread for a while ( week maybe ).

1. It does not need fixing, too many thing can mess it up.

2. Who has cookies? I'm bored and want cookies.

 

BtfdXcbCEAECe7j.jpg

 

dammit my joke post was ninjad :( and how is this up to 9 pages already o.O

Edited by Rob Jedi

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BTW, I think a simple "fix" to C3PO might be to simply say that you must guess "1" or higher (i.e., the 0 guess is no longer legal). Double or nothing, sure, but at least when you don't roll the evade you can actually get hits through.

 

You're assuming a fix is necessary.  It's not necessary.  Also - as highlighted earlier in the thread, that suggestion makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  It's like asking someone a yes/no question then forbidding them from saying no.

 

I simply cannot believe the level of crying and bleating going on in this thread about a card which is working as intended.  So C3PO gives you the chance to soak one (or two, if you're a gambler and really lucky) extra damage per turn.  SO what? Throw enough attack dice at it and it'll still drop like a sack of the proverbial.  Deal with it.

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You're assuming a fix is necessary.  It's not necessary.  Also - as highlighted earlier in the thread, that suggestion makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.  It's like asking someone a yes/no question then forbidding them from saying no.

 

I simply cannot believe the level of crying and bleating going on in this thread about a card which is working as intended.  So C3PO gives you the chance to soak one (or two, if you're a gambler and really lucky) extra damage per turn.  SO what? Throw enough attack dice at it and it'll still drop like a sack of the proverbial.  Deal with it.

 

Not really.  C-3PO should be interesting and viable on ships with more than 1 Agility, such as the YT-2400 or HWK-290.  But on a 1 Agility Falcon, he becomes something of a guarantee.  I'm not entirely sure that was the intended use, but I am very sure that you have no evidence to support that it is.  If I were going to stray into the realm of guessing intent, I'd say that an ability with a randomized component like that probably isn't intended to have the potential to produce a guaranteed result...  but there's nothing really to support htat, either.

 

Forcing a 1+ guess removes that guaranteed outcome.  It invests some level of risk in every use of C-3PO, just like there's a constant level of risk in using R2-D2.

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No single card in a vacuum is busted, HOWEVER certain cards when paired with other cards become worth more than the sum of all parts.

 

while certainly not unbeatable the combination of Chewbacca YT-1300 with C-3PO + MF Title + R2-D2 Crew combined with Draw their fire on an adjacent ship placed second at Gencon and would have been an absolute monster to beat.

 

If chewy makes it to the late game evading/regenerating 3 damage a turn is almost unbeatable, particularly if your opponent is down to 1-2 ships.

 

there's nothing more frustrating than still having ships on the board and knowing you cant actually win.

 

Context is also relevant to the power level of a card, in 60 minute timed games C-3PO is considerably more potent than longer or untimed games. killing half your opponents ships then running for the hills is a much more viable option, and certainly one I'm sure FFG would like to avoid becoming popular.

 

so in conclusion, banworthy? I am undecided but I feel that it has opened the door to powercreep when solutions to problems like this can create worse problems which snowball without intervention (banning, restricting or errata)

 

All I will say is this, come back to this thread in 6 months time and if C-3PO is still in 5-6 of the top 8 lists from major events then its time to start talking about 'curbing' C-3PO's effect on the meta.

Edited by Mace Windu

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Hit the falcon with more than 1 attack per turn. It cost as much as 2 hips with C-3PO on it. and C-3PO can only stop 1 attack per turn.

 

Rebel solution for Falcon, Biggs at range 3 with supporting upgrades such as luke with draw their fire and R2D2 and a couple of B wings or Y-wings for firepower.

 

Imperial solution for falcon, Howlrunner swarm throw in Backstabber there too, your opponent won't worry about firing arcs with a 360 so Backstabber will more than likely get an extra attack. If you have the points to spare swap a few academy for black squadron with opportunist or outmaneuver so as your academy blocks the falcon actions your black squadron get extra dice rolls.

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