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Darth Ruin

It's time to ban C3P0

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Dash Rendar + Veteran Instincts + Heavy Laser Cannon + Jan Ors + Outrider (51)

Chewbacca + Recon Specialist + C-3PO + Millennium Falcon (49)

Just wait until people see this build start popping up. Recon and Jan combo to allow a focus and Evade for the YT-1300 every turn the Outrider is floating by.

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Crew Lando is worse.

Statistically yes slightly, reliability wise no.

I rather have c3po and falcon title for 2 evades and rely on that 1 defense for any other atks. Then pray for an evade or eyeball to show up.

However since c3po is unique I'm sure those double falcon lists or outrider players will love lando over c3po

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Can we ban questioning the intelligence of the designers?

because no game designer anywhere has ever did something completely stupid... :rolleyes:

 

 

This is FFG, not WizKids. They're as good a designers as half our forummers like to think themselves are.

 

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Another thing to add to my point on the dominance of Falcons being largely a product of the dominance of Falcons: Rexler with proper support can lay the crits down on a Falcon.

Which ship isn't showing up a lot because the "metagame wisdom" massively underates it? The TIE defender.

I can honestly say falcon builds are easy to play.

Really?

High level Falcon players are good. If you can bring the full firepower of a swarm to bear on a Falcon it'll wither. It's got three dice for up to sixty points: it cannot match you for firepower. To win, it has to avoid the arcs of your ships, avoid blockers and shoot you with its turret when you can't shoot it back. That takes skill. Even a turtled Falcon that's C-3POing and evading dies if you just switch on the autopilot and roll dice all day.

If you're winning constantly with the Falcon and say you're not putting effort into your maneuver choices then you either don't realise how good a player you are or your opponents don't know the strategies to deal with it.

The falcon is easier to fly then most other ships. If you don't see why you are in denial.

It's a turret ship.

With a large base

A large base ship With asteroids and limited dial and limited actions limits your movements compared to smaller ships.

Playing ANY ship you want to avoid arcs or blockers this isn't a falcon exclusive worry. However the above list are falcon exclusive which is why I said it's also the list I give new players to play the game.

I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings and you thought you were an amazing xwing player. However this does not mean a good player can not fly well or limit mistakes. It simply means the falcon in my opinion is easier to fly.

Edited by Gungo

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Did you just say the Falcon has a "limited" dial? You're kidding me. It's a ship that can overlap its own base on a turn yet can keep pace with a TIE fighter. It's got two K-turns like a TIE fighter, TIE interceptor and A-wing and I've heard its dial be called the best in the game multiple times.

 

Playing ANY ship you want to avoid arcs or blockers this isn't a falcon exclusive worry.

Not Falcon exclusive but far more important. It needs its actions and it sure as hell isn't a jouster. Not against the full brunt of 60 points of firepower.

 

It's imperative for the Falcon to dodge arcs, FFG's designers said it themselves. It's got three dice and when tricked out costs up to 60 points. It needs to avoid focused by lists with more firepower than it or they'll incinerate it.

 

If you're one of those that, this far into Wave IV, claims the Falcon flies itself then it's pretty clear to me your opponents don't know how to fight it or that you're not giving yourself enough credit as to how well you're flying it. Regardless of what people think of its power against an opponent who knows how to fight it you've got to pay just as much attention to it as you do to the TIE interceptor or X-wing.

 

I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings and you thought you were an amazing xwing player. However this does not mean a good player can not fly well or limit mistakes. It simply means the falcon in my opinion is easier to fly.

You had a pretty good post before you edited in that snippet of ad hominem. A post I disagreed with but a civilly made and well put together one nonetheless. And then you had to go back and ruin it.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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Did you just say the Falcon has a "limited" dial? You're kidding me. It's a ship that can overlap its own base on a turn yet can keep pace with a TIE fighter. It's got two K-turns like a TIE fighter, TIE interceptor and A-wing and I've heard its dial be called the best in the game multiple times.

 

Playing ANY ship you want to avoid arcs or blockers this isn't a falcon exclusive worry.

Not Falcon exclusive but far more important. It needs its actions and it sure as hell isn't a jouster. Not against the full brunt of 60 points of firepower.

 

It's imperative for the Falcon to dodge arcs, FFG's designers said it themselves. It's got three dice and when tricked out costs up to 60 points. It needs to avoid being focused by lists with more firepower than it or they'll incinerate it.

 

If you're one of those that, this far into Wave IV, claims the Falcon flies itself then it's pretty clear to me your opponents don't know how to fight it.

 

sadly the other half is that it punishes anything else that isnt a swarm.  ever tried 3 elite rebel versus that?  no good.  you can actually intentionally bump one ship, so that only 2 of his can fire.  or if its toward the end of the game, kill off one of his ships and then bump one, and only have to deal with the other.  

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It's limited choices as a large base ship w asteroids and other ships on the board. Not because the dial sucks. In fact the choices of its dial makes it an easier ship to fly because it does have a great dial. There are plenty of times you are limited in manuevers moreso then a smaller ship because you will run into something. This happens Moreso w larger base ships then smaller ones. The plus side is a larger base w turret gives you a massive threat range offensively. Yes the falcon is one of the easiest to fly. This same idea was stated long before on this forum with many threads talking about large base turret ships dumbing down the game. Now just because the ship is competitively popular doesn't change that fact.

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3 ship elite Rebel gets killed by most things nowadays. Interceptors and Phantoms have little trouble arcdodging them, swarms bury them in firepower and Falcons no longer have the crippling firepower disadvantage that is their achilles heel.

 

It's limited choices as a large base ship w asteroids and other ships on the board. Not because the dial sucks. In fact the choices of its dial makes it an easier ship to fly because it does have a great dial. There are plenty of times you are limited in manuevers moreso then a smaller ship because you will run into something. This happens Moreso w larger base ships then smaller ones. The plus side is a larger base w turret gives you a massive threat range offensively. Yes the falcon is one of the easiest to fly. This same idea was stated long before on this forum with many threads talking about large base turret ships dumbing down the game. Now just because the ship is competitively popular doesn't change that fact.

 

If your options are being limited that makes it harder to fly as you need to avoid those situations in the first place. It being a large base ship makes it easier to block meaning it's harder to avoid being blocked. The Falcon has to maneuver well against an opponent that brings significant firepower to the battlefield and knows how to fight it. You may be very good at maneuvering Falcons but it still needs to be flown well and it's not dumbing down the game: it simply nullifies arcdodging against it. It's still got to arcdodge itself. Likewise, the ships attacking it still need to maneuver: it is not a ship that endures being blocked well and you need to stop it escaping your arcs.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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Fat Falcons have ruined the small ship meta; when 6 out of 8 top lists at any given tournament and 25-30% of the player base are carbon copies of the same silly Falcon build utterly killing diversity it's time we had some action from FFG. 

 

I vote that C3P0's text be errata'd to Huge Ship Only. 

I see no reason for the need to ban or restrict one of the worst crew cards in the game.

 

Seriously, I have been unable to fathom why everyone thinks Ol' Goldenrod is a must-include. Nevermind the one or two point crew, just look at all the other three pointers. Kyle, Lando, Navigator, Recon Specialist, and Weapons Engineer: all better investments, in my opinion. Even most of the higher-point crews are better investments (only Leia is a toss-up).

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It started out calling to outright ban a card, effectively accusing FFG of screwing up their game design.

 

It didn't exactly start with a high bar.

 

I see no reason for the need to ban or restrict one of the worst crew cards in the game.

C-3PO is good against phantoms. When people are just flying TIE phantoms or Falcons and then calling to ban the other side he's going to thrive. Against squads with lots of ships he's nowhere near as good but with people using the "grab it off of the Regional Top 8 lineup" method of squadbuilding we're just going to keep seeing more Phantoms and Falcons. Same with XXBB and TIE swarm in Wave 3.

 

Edited by Lagomorphia

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Well this thread went down the drain fast. People need to realize that backseat game developing does nothing but hurt the community and the game. Just because you don't like a card, doesn't make is OP. I have had this discussion with people locally about phantoms. One of the local players has played against my phantom so much he finally started to understand it and beat it on a regular basis, yes he did build a list that some what counters the build but so be it, its still a good list against almost all other builds and it doesn't use a falcon.

 

I digressed, sorry, back to the C3P0 thing. The fact of the matter is there are plenty of ways to limit the use of this card, yet just because it means you have to come up with a different strategy, it makes it too OP. People, I plead that instead of nay saying things and degrading cards and each other, especially after that great interview with the developers that shows they are energetic and passionate about the game, to actually try out new things and work with each other to do so. This game has many different strategies yet people are getting hung up on a few.

Edited by Hujoe Bigs

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7 pages is to much to read first thing in the morning so I'll just add my 2 cents if you can't beat them join them then when you start losing using c3p0 you will know how to beat it

I prefer recon over c3p0 anyway

 

7 pages that can be summarised as such:

"Falcons are beating me all the time. Falcon OP. Ban 3PO plz"

"No, they're not. Falcon dominance is a result of X Y and Z, not bad game design."

"Yes they are!"

"No they're not!"

"Yes they are!"

"No they're not!"

"Yes they are!"

"No they're not!"

"Yes they are!"

"No they're not!"

"Yes they are!"

"No they're not!"

 

This game has many different strategies yet people are getting hung up on a few.

This sort of thing is usually what happens when something comes along that invalidates (or even minorly inconveniences) previous strategies. People don't adapt, they complain that it's broken and want it gone so they can fly what they flew before in exactly the same way with exactly the same results. We had this for the TIE phantom, we had it for the Double Falcon, we had it for the Wave 3 TIE swarm...

Edited by Lagomorphia

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Crew Lando is worse.

Statistically yes slightly, reliability wise no.

I rather have c3po and falcon title for 2 evades and rely on that 1 defense for any other atks. Then pray for an evade or eyeball to show up.

However since c3po is unique I'm sure those double falcon lists or outrider players will love lando over c3po

Crew Lando has the chance of failure, or that he'll at least not grant an evade. There's chance in there. That makes the game fun. Plus, he requires an action, which means you're either taking a stress to use PTL (making movement predictable) or not taking an Evade/boost action.

C-3PO provides 5/8ths of an evade, always works, and costs nothing beyond a crew slot and three points. There's no choice in whether to save him. There's not even a choice in what number you guess. You always guess zero.

There's no strategy behind using him. There's barely a strategy when fighting him (Outmaneuver or Wedge). He's just astoundingly dull. Has anyone ever finished a game with the Threepio crew card and declared "Oh man, it felt so rewarding when I made that card work for me"?

Edited by PhantomFO

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Fat Falcons have ruined the small ship meta; when 6 out of 8 top lists at any given tournament and 25-30% of the player base are carbon copies of the same silly Falcon build utterly killing diversity it's time we had some action from FFG. 

 

I vote that C3P0's text be errata'd to Huge Ship Only. 

 

1. Just because 6 out of 8 of the top lists are Fat Falcon builds doesn't mean its game breaking for everyone... Just because an NFL team runs a spread offense doesn't mean a Peewee football team can... Yes everyone can build a fat falcon list... not everyone can actually play a falcon list well.

 

2. 25-30% doesn't really seem like a lot in the grand scheme; that tells me 75% of people aren't playing it which is pretty diverse.

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What's killing diversity is people picking their lists from the top of Championship league tables, and there's not much we can do about that except trim back the Falcons with counterbuilds. GenCon was massively diverse and you could see how overjoyed the FFG people were. French National was won by a non-formation 8 TIE swarm. It's not everywhere that people are trying to win in the metagame instead of the game.

 

1. Just because 6 out of 8 of the top lists are Fat Falcon builds doesn't mean its game breaking for everyone... Just because an NFL team runs a spread offense doesn't mean a Peewee football team can... Yes everyone can build a fat falcon list... not everyone can actually play a falcon list well.

 

When you think about how many Falcons are being played it's unsurprising that you see them at the top. There are probably a bunch at the bottom too.

 

Although, for those that loathe le turret, FFG has heard your cries, and in Wave 6 they are releasing...

AUTOTH -

 

Nobody actually knows what it does but it supposedly helps Interceptors, A-wings and anything that outmaneuvers maul turretships.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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Anyway, as you did answer the question:

Your TIE phantoms, as you know, aren't going to do very well against Han. Three ship Rebels likewise just don't have the firepower. Based on your comments you already know what kills Falcons, so the question is why aren't you flying it? If everyone's following the Falcon sheepdog they deserve to be slain enmasse by one person with a counterbuild. That is, of course, assuming that there isn't a skill differential. People are saying Paul Heaver wrecking with a Falcon is proof of the Falcon's power: it's not. It's proof of Paul Heaver's power.

 

Completely disagree, 3 rebel ships with Corran are perfectly fine against phantoms. Falcons can be a bad match up depending on your build mostly, not in the "3 rebel ships" by definition, but Corran with R2D2 and FCS has good chances at taking a Fat Han 1on1 if you don't screw up big time, and you are not overly agressive. I play it with VI because of phantoms, but i can see how a markmanship build would be even better in that regard, if it wasn't for EU.

 

They suffer from swarmy lists way more than against Fat Hans.

 

I am not playing the Falcon, not because i haven't tried it. I did, since i like to play every build to understand them. But i don't play it because it was outrageously easy to fly with. I know i will be lapidated by stating my opinion in this regard, but the skill ceiling floor for a fat han build is pretty low, and it doesn't get that much better as people try to make it out to be. If you had played with and against them, and read most battle reports, most games comes down to the moment the opponent makes a mistakes.

 

If you play a 8 Tie/Z swarm vs a Phantom build, and play then a Fat Han vs said Phantom build, if you tell me that the Tie Swarm player doesn't have too solve a bigger puzzle on his head every turn, i don't know what else could we discuss. It can beat it by the way. I had beaten phantom builds with 3Z's 3X's. It takes a lot of patiente, but it is doable. 

 

And i will repeat again, just in case. If you quote me, you are answering me. If i haven't said it is overpowered (actually i stated them as solid, anything solid comes as balanced, well rounded. Not overpowered), you don't need to put somebody elses word into my writing. I am not saying i am struggling. Every game i lost against those builds, it was a mistake i made. As i told you, the problem is not finding a list that can deal with Falcons. It is a list that can deal with Falcons, Phantoms and everything else as reliabily as Falcon and Phantom builds do.

Edited by DreadStar

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Crew Lando is worse.

Statistically yes slightly, reliability wise no.

I rather have c3po and falcon title for 2 evades and rely on that 1 defense for any other atks. Then pray for an evade or eyeball to show up.

However since c3po is unique I'm sure those double falcon lists or outrider players will love lando over c3po

Crew Lando has the chance of failure, or that he'll at least not grant an evade. There's chance in there. That makes the game fun. Plus, he requires an action, which means you're either taking a stress to use PTL (making movement predictable) or not taking an Evade/boost action.

C-3PO provides 5/8ths of an evade, always works, and costs nothing beyond a crew slot and three points. There's no choice in whether to save him. There's not even a choice in what number you guess. You always guess zero.

There's no strategy behind using him. There's barely a strategy when fighting him (Outmaneuver or Wedge). He's just astoundingly dull. Has anyone ever finished a game with the Threepio crew card and declared "Oh man, it felt so rewarding when I made that card work for me"?

 

 

He doesn't "ALWAYS WORK".  He works ONCE per turn, and only if they don't have Wedge, Outmaneuver, or something else, like the crit that reduces agility.  

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If you play a 8 Tie/Z swarm vs a Phantom build, and play then a Fat Han vs said Phantom build, if you tell me that the Tie Swarm player doesn't have too solve a bigger puzzle on his head every turn, i don't know what else could we discuss.

 

The TIE swarm's certainly more complex to manage but the assertion that the Falcon flies itself is also completely wrong.

I apologise for supposedly putting words in your mouth, but if you come to the defence of someone calling to ban C-3PO the logical assumption is that you agree with him. What do you mean by "reliable deal[ing] with" then if not consistently defeating as if has some sort of unbalanced advantage over?

 

As i told you, the problem is not finding a list that can deal with Falcons. It is a list that can deal with Falcons, Phantoms and everything else as reliabily as Falcon and Phantom builds do.

Once again, this sounds like you're looking for a broken build even if you don't see it that way. Two balanced lists with two equally skilled players should have a roughly 50/50 win loss ratio. If one list is reliably beating the other then it isn't balanced.

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Has anyone ever finished a game with the Threepio crew card and declared "Oh man, it felt so rewarding when I made that card work for me"?

 

 

This.

 

 

Could say the same about the vast majority of upgrades: a lot of them are hardly explosive and are just little passive buffs. Hull Upgrade, for example. Should we ban everything that's "boring" from the game and just play with PTL interceptors?

 

And by the way, why aren't the same people complaining about C-3PO, also complaining about Predator?   It is almost like a Target Lock, just like 3PO is almost like an evade... and like 3PO it doesn't require an action.   It is essentially the Anti-3PO. 

Because they're not really complaining against Threepio. It's anger against the stupid numbers of Falcons. But that's not FFG's fault. They're not the ones spreading around that the Falcon is some sort of incredible god machine and thus causing people to flock to play it.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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