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Darth Ruin

It's time to ban C3P0

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Oh, playing against a Fat falcons 1 time on a tournament is fine. Playing 3 games straight against Fat Falcons i can assure you, it gets boring.

 

@Lagomorphia Well, one is speculation, the others is raw data. I prefer raw data, even if it could slightly missguide you, there is no contest that it is the most solid performer .Or do you claim that's not true ?

Edited by DreadStar

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It's no more speculation than your claim that they're winning because they're overpowered. People copy the winning lists: Paul Heaver won as pretty much the only XXBB, then suddenly they were everywhere, a permanent fixture through weight of numbers until some internet scaremongering scares them away (see TIE swarm). You have to be good to get to the top but once you're there you stay there. Most people would rather grab a "winning list" off the internet rather than build their own.

 

I ask you again, what are you flying against them?

Edited by Lagomorphia

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Sorry, but don't write down stuff i haven't said. I haven't said it is overpowered. I said it is a solid contender. Quite a big difference. Yes, there are list that actually can smoke falcon lists, the problem for those lists is to get consistent results across the tournament, and it is shown.

 

By the way, you are being annoying at asking me what i am flying, like i have some serious troubles with them, something i haven't even said. Maybe you can enlighten us with what you are flying that works as consistently as Falcon builds.

Edited by DreadStar

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It's no more speculation than your claim that they're winning because they're overpowered. People copy the winning lists: Paul Heaver won as pretty much the only XXBB, then suddenly they were everywhere, a permanent fixture through weight of numbers until some internet scaremongering scares them away (see TIE swarm). You have to be good to get to the top but once you're there you stay there. Most people would rather grab a "winning list" off the internet rather than build their own.

I ask you again, what are you flying against them?

Ironically enough I can show you posts back in March before this build was released stating this build variant was going to be overpowered. There was no meta then, there was no copy and paste since the ships were not released yet. Fat falcon variants are just a strong build currently. Rebel aces is going to make this build stronger. This build will only start to drop out of the meta when scum and villainy releases because the strongest counter to both the falcon and c3po is swarm ships and ironically scum and villainy seem to be one of the best at it. Cheap ships w low ps and 2 or more atk die. Turrets laugh at Expensive maneuverable ships. I'm kinda interest in how scum and villainy can strip tokens from ships as well that may play a role in how to disable this small 3-4 ship falcon builds which rely on one main powerful ship. Edited by Gungo

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C3P0 is a great card. It's thematic and balanced.

 

Try shooting the Falcon with more than one ship: Problem Solved. 

 

You do realize that 3po only works once per turn right?

 

Edit: I'm grumpy like Vorpal. I'm in Florida and the AC just went out.

I think you have bigger problems than a X-Wing card.  Florida in August is, pretty much, my version of hell.

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Don't forget about blocking actions. MF is powerless against it. Fat Han just needs one thing to push him off the table, and that is called focused fire. At half your squad points we should expect no less.

Everyone should realize that each squad we build involves sacrifices, and yeah, maybe we can't run four interceptors anymore.

Maybe what is upsetting people is the need to be creative on your list and finding out that somebody's falcons just work better.

How come no one ever thinks, "maybe my opening is wrong?"

Little mistakes add up in this game, so get in there and funk those falcons up.

Edited by Huhwhat

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C3P0 is a great card. It's thematic and balanced.

 

Try shooting the Falcon with more than one ship: Problem Solved. 

 

You do realize that 3po only works once per turn right?

 

Edit: I'm grumpy like Vorpal. I'm in Florida and the AC just went out.

I think you have bigger problems than a X-Wing card.  Florida in August is, pretty much, my version of hell.

As I think I said on another thread a few weeks ago--central Florida in summer is where Satan goes when he gets chilly and wants a nice warm vacation.

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it's everybody copying it because everyone claims it's unstoppable.

It's a couple things...

It's people saying that they're unbeatable.

It's that they are a good list.

It's that they're a good counter to the Phantom which has everyone freaked out over.

For those 3 reasons we see a lot of fat Hans. But that is not by any means proof that 3-CPO is broken or even the reason behind all the fat Hans.

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By the way, you are being annoying at asking me what i am flying, like i have some serious troubles with them, something i haven't even said. 

You have to give him credit for at least asking you what you're flying before telling you why you suck and need to learn to play.

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Sorry, but don't write down stuff i haven't said. I haven't said it is overpowered. I said it is a solid contender. Quite a big difference. Yes, there are list that actually can smoke falcon lists, the problem for those lists is to get consistent results across the tournament, and it is shown.

 

By the way, you are being annoying at asking me what i am flying, like i have some serious troubles with them, something i haven't even said. Maybe you can enlighten us with what you are flying that works as consistently as Falcon builds.

 

If you're looking for a list that always wins you're looking for a broken list in a balanced game. The way you win games is with a bit of luck and a skill advantage over your opponent.

 

You may claim my questions as to what you're flying are annoying but you're refusing to answer, which is somewhat suspect, no? Could it, by any chance, be TIE interceptors and TIE phantoms?

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You may claim my questions as to what you're flying are annoying but you're refusing to answer, which is somewhat suspect, no? Could it, by any chance, be TIE interceptors and TIE phantoms?

 

I take it back.  He didn't wait for a response before going down the "You're stupid" road.

 

Ah well.  It looked promising there for a moment.

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Time to have my say about that Combo.

 

It is OK.

I like it. and I also play against it and blow it to bits.

 

I relay on Carnor Jax and my Saber Squadron of TIE-Interceptor to eliminate all resistance.

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Sorry, but don't write down stuff i haven't said. I haven't said it is overpowered. I said it is a solid contender. Quite a big difference. Yes, there are list that actually can smoke falcon lists, the problem for those lists is to get consistent results across the tournament, and it is shown.

 

By the way, you are being annoying at asking me what i am flying, like i have some serious troubles with them, something i haven't even said. Maybe you can enlighten us with what you are flying that works as consistently as Falcon builds.

 

If you're looking for a list that always wins you're looking for a broken list in a balanced game. The way you win games is with a bit of luck and a skill advantage over your opponent.

 

You may claim my questions as to what you're flying are annoying but you're refusing to answer, which is somewhat suspect, no? Could it, by any chance, be TIE interceptors and TIE phantoms?

 

Again, putting words in my mouth that i haven't even said. 

 

No, it is annoying because you are being obviously condescendent, withouth even reading my posts, and just reading whatever you want to read out of them.

 

What i do play ?

 

Phantom builds (mini swarm, five swarm, soontir yorr, etc)

3 Rebel ship lists (Corran is just so good)

6 Rebel ship lists (anybody wants vaporized falcon for lunch?)

4 Rebel ship lists (quite meh in my opinion right now)

HLC defender lists (so much fun)

Tie swarm 

Krassix HLC + Rebel captive + Soontir PTL + Doomshuttle (quite a performer in my experience, i am surprised it doesn't do better at tournaments)

 

I am actually one of those players who likes try out stuff, even if it is not taking it to tourneys, to know how it works. I am lucky enough to have more than 10 games each week.

 

Then again, the only ones i have troubles against fat Hans. I just said it is boring to play a lot of games against them, because first, the gameplay's of the match, is not exactly amazing, compared to regular dogfighting (personal taste probably), and then because they are very common.

 

The overreaction to phantoms should had ended awhile ago in my opinion. Z's and the tournament rules had made the fat Falcon more popular too.

Edited by DreadStar

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For those complaining about 3P0 being packed with the Tantive as a cashgrab, which ship is he depicted as on in the card art? It's like claiming PTL in the A-wing (instead of the interceptor) was a cashgrab: it depicts an A-wing and was designed with A-wings in mind.

 

Precisely. It's a Epic Level ship card and should stay at the Epic level. It clearly wasn't expected to dominate the 100 point metagame the way it has come to. 

 

Any card which makes a ship invulnerable (2 attack vs 2 evades) has no place in a game where every other ship has the potential to take at least one damage from a given attack.   

 

Vorpal, the reasons C3P0 is a problem have been documented at length elsewhere. Hence the 'its time' post.

 

I'm not advocating it be banned completely, I'm suggesting it should stay on the Huge Ships it was designed for. Unless you consider Epic play somewhat inferior to Standard, or enjoy playing Fat Falcon 4-5 games out of every tournament. 

 

The people who don't have a meta dominated by Falcons (i.e. don't play competitively) or don't even know what C3P0 does and have to be told probably cannot contribute meaningfully to this discussion. 

 

 

I still don't undertsand how 1 evade per round is game breaking...

Edited by Zarynterk

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Fat Falcons are already obnoxious in the hands of a rookie player relying on the dice, in the hands of a skilled professional they are downright brutal. At the highest level it's 6/8 at two Nationals, 5/6 at Chicago Regional, and has won everywhere else. Worse still, it is killing the small ship meta. 

 

Tourney 1 (Singapore Regionals, one of the first Wave 4 Tournaments) I anticipated it running Blue Squadron + Ion, Blue Squadron, Roark+ Ion and Knave R3-A2. I even suggested Falcon + 4 Bandits to my training partner looking for an easy list to fly. My only losses were to Chewbacca+4 Bandits, twice; First time I had a B-Wing with TL against Chewbacca with 1 HP, who dodged it with C3P0 (did only 2 damage with reroll) Second time in the quarter final we timed out just as I was about to land the killing blow and ion him off the board. 

 

Tourney 2 (Malaysia Regional) I brought Rexler HLC + Outmanuever and 4 APs to hunt Falcons. I killed 4 out of the 5 Falcon lists I faced, but lost the semi-final when Rexler got 1-shotted at Range 3 by Chewbacca from 3 hp. The point is, even against list tailored to kill them they still are dangerous, and anyone suggesting 'shoot it with more than one attack' is a tenuous strategy when you have guaranteed evades and Engine. 

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You may claim my questions as to what you're flying are annoying but you're refusing to answer, which is somewhat suspect, no? Could it, by any chance, be TIE interceptors and TIE phantoms?

 

I take it back.  He didn't wait for a response before going down the "You're stupid" road.

 

Ah well.  It looked promising there for a moment.

 

Oh sorry, i understand now, my english...

Edited by DreadStar

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Every single competitively played game goes through phases of squads or builds that peek. The environment was set because of all the Phantom fears for the YT-1300 to peek in the meta. The truth is there are really good squads that kill YT-1300's. as that count goes up in tournament play the counter will get played more and more. Suddenly the pendulum swings as too mnay counters for a build are in the format and the YT-1300 count drops. We now will begin a new cycle of threads of build X is broken and the sky is falling because build X wins to much. The best part is looking at the bigger picture we have a very balanced meta in this game as every good squad has a nemesis to deal with.

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C3P0 is a great card. It's thematic and balanced.

 

Try shooting the Falcon with more than one ship: Problem Solved. 

 

You do realize that 3po only works once per turn right?

 

Edit: I'm grumpy like Vorpal. I'm in Florida and the AC just went out.

I think you have bigger problems than a X-Wing card.  Florida in August is, pretty much, my version of hell.

 

 

Fortunately the compressor's breaker just tripped and it was an easy fix. It got pretty warm inside though.

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Crew Lando is worse.

 

Unless you're like my buddy Dozer on Monday. He rolled double blanks on Lando five times, this was without Experimental Interface or PTL.

 

Poor guy.

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@DreadStar

Huh ? I haven't insulted him ?

Seriously, what are you guys on ?

He was accusing me of insulting you when my aim was to get you to say what you were flying, which you eventually did. Somehow he thinks suggesting you were flying TIE interceptors against a Falcon meant you were a stupid person. Hardly: people don't choose their opponent's squads nor do they always know them ahead of them.

 

Anyway, as you did answer the question:
Your TIE phantoms, as you know, aren't going to do very well against Han. Three ship Rebels likewise just don't have the firepower. Based on your comments you already know what kills Falcons, so the question is why aren't you flying it? If everyone's following the Falcon sheepdog they deserve to be slain enmasse by one person with a counterbuild. That is, of course, assuming that there isn't a skill differential. People are saying Paul Heaver wrecking with a Falcon is proof of the Falcon's power: it's not. It's proof of Paul Heaver's power.

 

@whoever it was:

Ironically enough I can show you posts back in March before this build was released stating this build variant was going to be overpowered.

That's not irony.

 

At Darth Ruin:

anyone suggesting 'shoot it with more than one attack' is a tenuous strategy when you have guaranteed evades and Engine.

I'm beginning to suspect you don't understand the C-3PO card. It says "Once per round."

 

What are you sending against them?

Edited by Lagomorphia

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I can honestly say falcon builds are easy to play.

I like playing 7 tie swarm builds as well but I suck at it.

However even playing fat falcon builds before they were released (proxy z95) they are much easier to fly. The turret takes a lot of skill away. It's also one of the builds I give people when I want them to try out the game with me. The falcon is very new person friendly.

C3po is not by itself overpower. There is a few things that all at once made this build overpowered. Cheaper support ships replaced the old Han shoots first xwings. Allowing for more ships in this build. Change in tournament rules meaning if you don't take out the falcon before time is up the majority of that players points are I the board still. The shift away from swarm builds that were historically the falcon Achilles heel. The introduction of c3po which is ideal for 1 defense high hit point ships. And c3po replaces the Chewie crew card which allows for chewie pilot which is a bit better since he is cheaper and his ability pairs well w c3po however it's abit less offensive then Han which is so far ok if you play with gunner predator or some other offensive bonus. C3po on almost any other ship sucks. I personally like the awing refit mini swarm w fat Chewie since it's a lot more survivable for a nominal cost.

Right now I'm just waiting for scum and villainy so that the mess that is the fat falcon goes away.

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Another thing to add to my point on the dominance of Falcons being largely a product of the dominance of Falcons: Rexler with proper support can lay the crits down on a Falcon.

Which ship isn't showing up a lot because the "metagame wisdom" massively underates it? The TIE defender.

 

I can honestly say falcon builds are easy to play.

Really?

High level Falcon players are good. If you can bring the full firepower of a swarm to bear on a Falcon it'll wither. It's got three dice for up to sixty points: it cannot match you for firepower. To win, it has to avoid the arcs of your ships, avoid blockers and shoot you with its turret when you can't shoot it back. That takes skill. Even a turtled Falcon that's C-3POing and evading dies if you just switch on the autopilot and roll dice all day.

 

If you're winning constantly with the Falcon and say you're not putting effort into your maneuver choices then you either don't realise how good a player you are or your opponents don't know the strategies to deal with it.

Edited by Lagomorphia

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