Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Darth Ruin

It's time to ban C3P0

Recommended Posts

Lets say I'm flying 4 x-wings vs a Falcon and I attack first with Luke - I roll 2 hits, you activate C-3PO and guess zero.   You roll 1 evade.    You cancel 1 hit, another goes through.   C-3PO did NOTHING, and now you cannot use him again this turn.   

 

It's not like his ability carries over if it fails.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Funny. I feel you did NOT refute the *fact*  that top players use the Falcon.

For the simple reason these top players perceive the Falcon as the strongest contender to win tournaments.

 

 

Less QQ, more pew pew Elkerlyc.

 

 

Sure pal.

 

Just a random question; how often did you win nationals?

 

I am sure your tactical genius would make short work of those Falcons.

 

Show us unbelievers how it is done.

 

Just for added emphasis;

 

No. Falcons not not breaking the game.

But they are at the moment just that bit better than the alternatives.

 

I have a feeling that is why top players (who do not bring 'more pew pew but falcons!) use them. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a feeling that is why top players (who do not bring 'more pew pew but falcons!) use them. ;)

 

 

Less QQ, more pew pew Elkerlyc.

 

 

(See?  You're not the only person in this thread who can repeat a nonsensical "argument").

Edited by FTS Gecko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny. I feel you did NOT refute the *fact*  that top players use the Falcon.

For the simple reason these top players perceive the Falcon as the strongest contender to win tournaments.

He's being condescending, but (unfortunately?) he's also right. Looking through the Nationals data at length yesterday, there were 12 Falcon builds in the top 8 (of 6 tournaments)--but only half used Threepio. That is, there are as many very successful Falcon builds without Threepio as there are builds that use him.

That suggests to me that my hypothesis from way upthread is correct: it's the Falcon that's popular right now. Once you've committed to flying a Falcon, Threepio is an attractive but by no means necessary ingredient for tournament success.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Why is it so many Falcons end up being played by the best players and ending up so high?

 

Maybe because the best players are playing them? If I go up against Paul Heaver, the dice gods favour neither player and my list is more metagame popular than his, who's going to win?

Paul Heaver, of course. He'll wipe the floor with me because he's a World goddamn Champion.

 

There are a ton of Falcons in the top 8, but I bet there are a ton of smouldering wrecks of dead Falcons all over the rankings. We're seeing so many Falcons at the top because there are a huge number of Falcons outright. It's not the Falcons always winning, it's the massive number of Falcons meaning they're more likely to show up in the top eight. You pick a dice blindly out of a bag and if there's twice as many reds as blues guess which you'll pick more of.

Edited by Lagomorphia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If

 

 

I have a feeling that is why top players (who do not bring 'more pew pew but falcons!) use them. ;)

 

 

Less QQ, more pew pew Elkerlyc.

 

 

(See?  You're not the only person in this thread who can repeat a nonsensical "argument").

 

 

 

So your stance is that the argument that the very best players use the Falcon in large numbers is nonsensical?

 

Haha. Too funny to even continue this.

 

Let's agree to disagree then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Funny. I feel you did NOT refute the *fact*  that top players use the Falcon.

For the simple reason these top players perceive the Falcon as the strongest contender to win tournaments.

He's being condescending, but (unfortunately?) he's also right. Looking through the Nationals data at length yesterday, there were 12 Falcon builds in the top 8 (of 6 tournaments)--but only half used Threepio. That is, there are as many very successful Falcon builds without Threepio as there are builds that use him.

That suggests to me that my hypothesis from way upthread is correct: it's the Falcon that's popular right now. Once you've committed to flying a Falcon, Threepio is an attractive but by no means necessary ingredient for tournament success.

 

 

This I never said you know.

 

I said that in my opinion hte very best players perceive the Falcon the best alternative to most the opponent can deploy.

Not OP. C3PO makes it a bit 'worse' but still not 'broken'. Just a bit 'too good'.

 

Unless of course all those top players perceive it wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

didn't a "top player" just win Australian nationals with a whisper build against a field of falcons? which is the whisper build's worst matchup?

twice in swiss... twice in top 4

 

Again... when people perceive something to be "the build" and a greater number of people field it. You're most likely to see it place higher...

france top 4 only had 1 falcon build

nordic top 4.. 1 falcon

gencon top 4.. 2 falcons

australia 2 falcons in top 4

germany.. 1 falcon

 

its a build, but you see 4 reb builds, swarms and phantom builds too.

so out of the 20 top 4 players from the respective nationals.. youre seeing 7 falcon builds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Why is it so many Falcons end up being played by the best players and ending up so high?

 

Maybe because the best players are playing them?

 

 

It is my firm belief that the very best players have a keen eye for what is best deployed.

Because they are the best players. ;)

 

So if the best players deploy lots of Falcons odds are that Falcons are simply the 'best' if you consider all alternatives.

(not 'best' as in 'overpowered' but 'best' as in 'better than alternatives')

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

French National. 4x Academy 4x Obsidian. Wrecked everything.

 

It is my firm belief that the very best players have a keen eye for what is best deployed.

Because they are the best players. ;)

 

The best players win with solid squads. This isn't a broken mess like 40K where the actual game is little more than a formality at the end of the "find the broken squad" metagame.

 

The champions, the ones that hit the top, fly what they can fly well and that they like, and a lot of them change squads for new tournaments. Paul Heaver was flying a Falcon at GenCon, his Championship squad is what we now call XXBB but then was a new idea: the Adv Sensor B-wings flew weird and threw people. The TIE swarm world champion (or the finalist that went against Paul Heaver who was also TIE swarm, I forget which) decided to take Firesprays the next time. Squadbuilding isn't just finding a very solid setup, it's also partially finding a solid setup people don't expect.

How many people here are actually admitting to being kerbstomped constantly by Falcons? Because what I'm seeing is "yeah I can fight them but I don't like fighting them." That's not liking the ship, not the ship being broken.

If you want to drive Falcons out of your local area fly Falcon hate (Howlrunner does a good job of it). If you're sick of high level tournament Falcons, just wait half a year, certain lists spike and then fall when the new big thing comes along.

Edited by Lagomorphia

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Funny. I feel you did NOT refute the *fact*  that top players use the Falcon.

For the simple reason these top players perceive the Falcon as the strongest contender to win tournaments.

He's being condescending, but (unfortunately?) he's also right. Looking through the Nationals data at length yesterday, there were 12 Falcon builds in the top 8 (of 6 tournaments)--but only half used Threepio. That is, there are as many very successful Falcon builds without Threepio as there are builds that use him.

That suggests to me that my hypothesis from way upthread is correct: it's the Falcon that's popular right now. Once you've committed to flying a Falcon, Threepio is an attractive but by no means necessary ingredient for tournament success.

 

This I never said you know.

 

I said that in my opinion hte very best players perceive the Falcon the best alternative to most the opponent can deploy.

Not OP. C3PO makes it a bit 'worse' but still not 'broken'. Just a bit 'too good'.

 

Unless of course all those top players perceive it wrong.

You're correct that lots of people are choosing Falcons right now (although there's still lots of diversity in non-Falcon lists, and even some interesting diversity in the Falcon lists that win), but with reference to the thread topic--Threepio isn't the cause of the problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

C3PO may not be the cause of the problem.

He sure ain't helpin'.  (IMO)

 

[edit] -> It might be useful to point out that banning C3PO is not the solution. (IMO) But a nice counter to 'Fat' ships would be appreciated. I'd appreciate it anyhow. Plenty waves to come to correct any imbalance and create more diversity. (which is the spice of life and gaming)

Edited by Elkerlyc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Threepio may not be the cause of the problem.

He sure ain't helpin'.  (IMO)

Of course not. But the right question to ask (the one that potentially refutes the OP) is: if Threepio didn't exist, would people still be taking the Falcon and winning with it? Counterfactuals are always difficult to address with real-world data, but the Nationals results seem to say "yes".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But a nice counter to 'Fat' ships would be appreciated.

 

If you mean Falcon turretships, you outgun it. Keep it in arc (this is why maneuvering seriously matters for the Falcon pilot) and focus it down. If you don't want to swarm against it, there's an antiturret modification in Wave 6. We don't know what it is yet but it supposedly lets TIE interceptors and StarVipers take on Falcons. (Not phantoms, which have their modslot used by ACD).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Threepio may not be the cause of the problem.

He sure ain't helpin'.  (IMO)

Of course not. But the right question to ask (the one that potentially refutes the OP) is: if Threepio didn't exist, would people still be taking the Falcon and winning with it? Counterfactuals are always difficult to address with real-world data, but the Nationals results seem to say "yes".

 

 

Agreed. But I *do* think you'd see less Fat Falcons. But I admit this is my speculation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

C3PO may not be the cause of the problem.

He sure ain't helpin'.  (IMO)

 

And see - that's where you're going wrong.

 

There is no problem.

 

There IS however a trend.

 

They're two entirely different things.

 

People latch on to trends.  It's the Falcon's turn (again).  Just like TIE swarms were a trend.  Biggs walks the Dogs was a trend.  As soon as someone wins an event with 3 x Defenders, it'll become a trend, and we'll see people taking copycat lists and people will cry and wail about them, too.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Falcon.  There is nothing inherently wrong with C3PO either, they're just popular.  They're also effective against one of the ships people currently worry about the most.  You want to change the meta?  Beat the meta.

Edited by FTS Gecko

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But a nice counter to 'Fat' ships would be appreciated.

 

If you mean Falcon turretships, you outgun it. Keep it in arc (this is why maneuvering seriously matters for the Falcon pilot) and focus it down.

Sure. Easy answer. Alas not as easy to actually accomplish.

Which is why I suspect more than a few good players pick the Fat Falcon to begin with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

if Threepio didn't exist, would people still be taking the Falcon and winning with it?

One of the root causes of the fat Han, is the Z-95 as was pointed out some pages back. It lets you put out a 60 point Falcon and still have 3 escorts. 3-CPO is a natural fit for the fat Han, but is not the root cause of it, or even makes it broken really.

The main reason so many Falcons are being played is because they're the natural enemy of the Phantom and everyone was pretty freaked out about seeing a ton of those, but those lists also work well against other stuff so it's natural you'd see a lot of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

C3PO may not be the cause of the problem.

He sure ain't helpin'.  (IMO)

 

And see - that's where you're going wrong.

 

There is no problem.

 

There IS however a trend.

 

They're two entirely different things.

 

People latch on to trends.  It's the Falcon's turn (again).  Just like TIE swarms were a trend.  Biggs walks the Dogs was a trend.  As soon as someone wins an event with 3 x Defenders, it'll become a trend, and we'll see people taking copycat lists and people will cry and wail about them, too.

 

There is nothing inherently wrong with the Falcon.  There is nothing inherently wrong with C3PO either, they're just popular.  You want to change the meta?  Beat the meta.

 

 

 

Yup. I am wrong. And the top players bringing Falcons too.

You just showed us the error of our ways.

 

All there is is people jumping the bandwagon and by sheer luck win a lot. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All there is is people jumping the bandwagon and by sheer luck win a lot. ;)

No you're not, and on one is really saying you are. I think they're reacting a bit more forcefully then they should, IMO anyway, because you're not really saying anything all that outrageous.

The Falcon is a good ship, and quite honestly perhaps a little bit undercosted, when you consider what you can put on it. Between the HP's, turret and all the combo's you can fit on it... It is more subject to power combos then any other ship.

As such it will often be seen at the top of the food chain.

But on the other hand, yes people do tend to play what ever won the last major tournament, because it's typically a good list. After the XXBB won, you saw a lot of those being played. Because it was a solid list. But the difference in X-Wing is, the best list will only do so much to cover bad flying. So even if the Fat Han is a bit too good, it's not like I'm going to beat Paul or any other world chap with it, just because it's that good of a list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But on the other hand, yes people do tend to play what ever won the last major tournament, because it's typically a good list. After the XXBB won, you saw a lot of those being played. Because it was a solid list. But the difference in X-Wing is, the best list will only do so much to cover bad flying. So even if the Fat Han is a bit too good, it's not like I'm going to beat Paul or any other world chap with it, just because it's that good of a list.

 

 

Sure, I agree that many will play whatever won the last tournament.

 

My point is not however how many people play a certain list or ship.

My point is how many out of those people end up in the top 4.

 

And looking at the numbers it seems to me that Fat Falcons are a very very good choice to take all comers.

But yes; you still need to play it very well. No one can dispute that. (well; reading this thread some could it seems...)

 

If you see the very best players taking Fat Falcons and doing very well in it odds are Fat Falcons are among the best choices your points can buy in order to compete at the top.

 

At least; that is what *I* make of it at the moment.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course not. But the right question to ask (the one that potentially refutes the OP) is: if Threepio didn't exist, would people still be taking the Falcon and winning with it? Counterfactuals are always difficult to address with real-world data, but the Nationals results seem to say "yes".

 

That question is big speculation, but i would say completely yes, since Falcon list relies on tournament timers, and strongest possible lategame. And C3PO doubles his evade chance for that matter. So yeah, it is pretty good. If its lategame staying power got halved against low count ship builds, i t hink that would change this quite a bit. 

 

Wave 5 brings Lone wolf tho, which can be a good substitute, or just latch it on top of it already since it is an EPT.

 

I just think we are on this metagame until wave 6 to be honest, because wave 5 does nothing but reinforce big ship builds. And while i don't think it is overpowered or anything since there are more lists which are viable anyways, i find falcon's gameplay rather boring.

 

By the way, the answer to why most good players bring Falcons to the table, is that according to most that had spoken about it, it has been their most solid performer. It doesn't mean they find it overpowered, but it is a reliable list that can deal with a good array of tournament lists, hence why you see it so often. Calling it a "trend", and be done with it isn't even argument to begin with.  Many players can play whatever they want, or follow whichever trend you like, but the good players, the ones that win tournaments and show up at TOP 8's, are the players who playtest their stuff, not your average copy paster. So that point is moot.

Edited by DreadStar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...