Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
venkelos

Fraternization among the Guard

Recommended Posts

I would think the Cadians would be something like IDF and that depicted in Starship Troopers (the movie). Yes, women would be part of it, and yes they would fraternize as hell, as we need to breed new strong soldiers. Even Hitler wanted his soldiers to breed in WW2, as long as they were "genetically acceptable" - special homes were set up to provide for such. 

 

However the mother-child nurturing as seen in feudal societies and our own pre-suffrage society would be too inefficient - every Cadian should know how to field strip a lasgun before he can barely walk, so what better way to do this than through mass kindergartens? Maybe a young mother (40s and 50s mothers are more likely to breed genetically faulty children) would have a year of leave when she gets pregnant, but after the first weaning period the baby would be raised by semi-militaristic kindergartens, that seamlessly turn into Basic training and advanced training as the child gets older. 

 

Every Cadian is a soldier first, and a civilian second. It still needs a lot of the latter - to produce goods, repair vehicles, etc. Thus only the best become Cadian shock troops and even their support elements, while the rest are defending the homeworld part-time. 

 

Well, that's my take on it at least ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sidenote: the IDF doesn't actually seem to be that egalitarian when you consider that they still keep their females out of "hot zones" and relegate them to guard and border patrol duties mainly to free up male troops for frontline service in the Gaza Strip. Their universal conscription seems primarily driven by the question of "how can we get more male soldiers to X" as opposed to "why don't we see how female soldiers perform at this".

 

A better example may be some of the European militaries. They don't make news as much because they do not conscript women (most of them do not conscript men anymore either) and because many policy changes are a fairly recent thing, but the organisations make less of a difference between the genders now. I think it was in 2010 that the German Bundeswehr, for the first time, saw a female officer lead a mechanized infantry company into combat against the Taliban. Lots of similar "premieres" were made in the past decade, and lots more will be made all around the world in the next 10 years. Australia recently dropped gender discrimination from its military as well, opening all combat roles for female troops as long as they make the cut.

 

 

The IDF being the most popular example when it comes to female soldiers is just a little pet peeve of mine, similar to how just about everyone first thinks of Jeanne d'Arc when discussing female warriors in medieval times. There are so many better examples. Women who actually fought and killed in battle. Jeanne was incredibly brave and got herself injured in battle, but even though she had a weapon she never actually fought someone with it.

 

In other words, I think both the IDF as well as Jeanne d'Arc are rather bad examples as they do not represent the concept of female combatants as well as various alternatives do.

 

Alright. Carry on! :D

Edited by Lynata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think starship troopers are good example. It was inspiration for me while i was thinking about campaing set in jericho reach against tyranids. Live is short especialy in the war zone so i want players have that feel and while most of the time it's action sometimes it's good to slow the pace and let players fraternize. It's much more shocking when fellow soldier die after player character spent with him/her night together.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty sure the tabletop fluff mentions people in the guard having children and those children continuing the wars their parents fought in. Grim dark, and at least means some regiments allow things like that. And since the Schola Progenium takes orphans of those who fall in battle it's safe to say some of those are likely concieved while the guardsman is in service.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pretty sure the tabletop fluff mentions people in the guard having children and those children continuing the wars their parents fought in.

 

Yeah, it was specifically pointed out for Cadian Whiteshields, though the source (I think it was the 4E IG Codex, or maybe Codex EoT) also mentioned that the concept of Whiteshields, i.e. using kids as probationary soldiers, are "a thing" in many other regiments.

 

And since the Schola Progenium takes orphans of those who fall in battle it's safe to say some of those are likely concieved while the guardsman is in service.

 

Although depending on the source the Schola doesn't accept anyone. I think in codex fluff, the parents have to have a certain status for the child to be eligible, such as an Adept or an Officer. Plus, personally I'd doubt that the Navy is organising transportation out of a warzone just to get some kid into an orphanage, much like I don't believe they are ferrying Guardsmen back to their homeworld for retirement. Kids who get born during the campaign are kept in the regiment's wagon train until they're old enough to help out in menial duties or grab a gun themselves, and after a couple years more they may be raised to the status of full soldier as a coming-of-age bit. Or at least that's my take on it. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Once I've read that Cadia exports troops, and the born rating is synonymous of recruitment rating, so I think there are really few women in the Cadian Army, all fertile women should be stay at home to be impregnated or giving birth.

 

This is incorrect, as all adult Cadians serve either in the PDF or IG.  That's what they meant by recruitment being equal to the birth rate is that all Cadians serve by law.  Even the disabled and children serve in some capacity.  'Maternity leave' probably equates shuffling papers for a few months. 

 

I know people don;t like using Relic as a source, but the last surviving Cadian officer on Graia was female.

 

 

The IDF being the most popular example when it comes to female soldiers is just a little pet peeve of mine, similar to how just about everyone first thinks of Jeanne d'Arc when discussing female warriors in medieval times. There are so many better examples. Women who actually fought and killed in battle. Jeanne was incredibly brave and got herself injured in battle, but even though she had a weapon she never actually fought someone with it.
 
In other words, I think both the IDF as well as Jeanne d'Arc are rather bad examples as they do not represent the concept of female combatants as well as various alternatives do.
 
Alright. Carry on! :D

 

 

 

A better example would be Russia in WW2, at least a few of whom became highly decorated combat veterans. 

 

Also, according to the letter to Charles by John of Orléans, yes she did actually fight people, personally leading an assault on a siege tower at Orleans, that saw her uninjured, but several of her bodyguard killed.  Joan herself claims she never killed anyone, but several surviving sources claim that she fought plenty of them.

 

Further, several all female orders of knights existed, including the Order of the Hatchet, who fought the Moors at Tortosa, iirc.

Edited by BaronIveagh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Once I've read that Cadia exports troops, and the born rating is synonymous of recruitment rating, so I think there are really few women in the Cadian Army, all fertile women should be stay at home to be impregnated or giving birth.

 

This is incorrect, as all adult Cadians serve either in the PDF or IG.  That's what they meant by recruitment being equal to the birth rate is that all Cadians serve by law.  Even the disabled and children serve in some capacity.  'Maternity leave' probably equates shuffling papers for a few months. 

 

I know people don;t like using Relic as a source, but the last surviving Cadian officer on Graia was female.

 

 

The IDF being the most popular example when it comes to female soldiers is just a little pet peeve of mine, similar to how just about everyone first thinks of Jeanne d'Arc when discussing female warriors in medieval times. There are so many better examples. Women who actually fought and killed in battle. Jeanne was incredibly brave and got herself injured in battle, but even though she had a weapon she never actually fought someone with it.
 
In other words, I think both the IDF as well as Jeanne d'Arc are rather bad examples as they do not represent the concept of female combatants as well as various alternatives do.
 
Alright. Carry on! :D

 

 

 

A better example would be Russia in WW2, at least a few of whom became highly decorated combat veterans. 

 

Also, according to the letter to Charles by John of Orléans, yes she did actually fight people, personally leading an assault on a siege tower at Orleans, that saw her uninjured, but several of her bodyguard killed.  Joan herself claims she never killed anyone, but several surviving sources claim that she fought plenty of them.

 

Further, several all female orders of knights existed, including the Order of the Hatchet, who fought the Moors at Tortosa, iirc.

 

Interesting! A few historical notes here I did not know! Thanks Baron!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although it's not a terribly exciting answer, I don't think the Adeptus administratum (From whence the IG draws it's regulatory structure.) cares so long as combat efficiency is not affected. However, The culture a regiment comes from will care and the results will vary by culture (Sometimes in extremis!)

 

As to the Cadians; Like the earlier poster I tend to draw inspiration from "Starship troopers" since I believe the Cadians were largely inspired by said movie. This would suggest a Coed everything approach which I think is probably closest to the "pure" Imperial Idea.

 

The simple truth is; If you put a population of young, fit, men and women together for an extended period of time you will have "fraternization". Period! It doesn't matter how you try to regulate it, it will happen! Coed armies of today are all aware of this and simply try to do their best to control it's effects.

 

Logistically, every source I've personally read about the Imperial guard seems to heavily infer if not outright state the presence of "camp followers". While the IG does have a professional logistics division in the form of adepts from the Adeptus administratum (Basically a low level adept from DH.) but they are no doubt augmented by labor from the camp followers. This also presents a ready source of recruitment for the administratum for those who might not be cut out to be combat soldiers.

 

Finally, Homophobia; Sorry to our resident activists but I don't even think this makes it on to the Commissar's auspex either way! I believe this would be entirely defined by the culture the regiment is drawn from with virtually no interference from the Administratum whatsoever!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is incorrect, as all adult Cadians serve either in the PDF or IG.  That's what they meant by recruitment being equal to the birth rate is that all Cadians serve by law.

 

And if we go by codex fluff, distribution between the Interior Guard (PDF) and Shock Troops (IG) was entirely at random, with every 10th trooper being assigned to off-world deployment - so done to ensure that there was no discernible quality gap between both types of regiments.

 

Also, according to the letter to Charles by John of Orléans, yes she did actually fight people, personally leading an assault on a siege tower at Orleans, that saw her uninjured, but several of her bodyguard killed.  Joan herself claims she never killed anyone, but several surviving sources claim that she fought plenty of them.

 

Really? Do you have a link regarding that topic? I was under the impression that she basically just carried that sword "for show", being more concerned with the role of an inspiring figurehead. Undoubtedly she participated in assaults (and even got injured), but I thought the only thing she'd held in her hands was her banner.

 

The legend of Jeanne d'Arc was actually one of the main reasons for me finally deciding on SoB as an army, and I am still curious about the real life history of that person. ;)

 

Further, several all female orders of knights existed, including the Order of the Hatchet, who fought the Moors at Tortosa, iirc.

 

Indeed - it's a bit sad how very few people are aware of such things. The "broad strokes" method of public education may be at fault here, with knights in general always being explained as "no women"...

 

Though it could also be that we are just now catching up on such details of medieval life, with ever more sources being located/restored/released and analysed, and the internet helping to disseminate this knowledge among historians and lay persons alike.

It's crazy how even now we still find out new things about how people lived ages ago!  ^_^

Edited by Lynata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, my points where based on a grim dark vision of the setting, however, since so many players here like to put historical facts in a fantasy game, let me remember to you that young women are more suitable to give birth than older women, so to me this is another motive to said that young women in Cadian army are few. Probably they are sterile.

In general to me, the most iconic heroes of Imperium should have some dystopian side or something that put them out from the rest of humanity.

For example, the space marines with the most "human" behavior are probably the Space Wolves, however, they are the most biologically distant from the humanity, because they are werewolf space marines...they are an heresy even among the other space marines.

 

A more interesting idea could be merging a misogynist regiment with a "misandric" regiment. Or better, we are in the grim dark future, a misogynistic regiment of women (penitents?) with a "misandric" regiment of men!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, my points where based on a grim dark vision of the setting, however, since so many players here like to put historical facts in a fantasy game, let me remember to you that young women are more suitable to give birth than older women, so to me this is another motive to said that young women in Cadian army are few. Probably they are sterile.

If we want to be a little grimdark about it, I suppose the view could be something like this: "A young Cadian woman, shown to be fit and healthy, of sound soul and such, would be expected to give birth at an early age, possibly 13-16 (early to me, anyway). During this time, they are still expected to do all the things that Cadian youths do to prepare for a life of war on a Fortress World, holding back the denizens of the Eye of Terror, or heading out into the wider Imperium to prosecute the Emperor's myriad Crusades, but having one or two kids will also work in there. Once you've had a healthy child, or more, your "quota" is met, and once you are 18, you go into the Imperial Guard, or Interior Guard, and serve as normal."

 

Now, someone might say that I am cutting out literal years of baby-factory good years, but I'll argue that, with the entire productivity of a planet at their command, the numbers needed can be made. As for raising children, whole chunks of 40k lore don't make sense to me, so I don't know exactly how that works in. If you stay on Cadia, some of your "downtime" each day could be devoted to your children, and family unit, and I would imagine this is how Cadian fathers get to spend time with their children, too; I've never imagined every Cadian never knowing their dads, while those lottoed to the AM (Cadia has two IGs, so...) would have their still-remaining families take on the responsibility. This allows for maximum strength application for soldiers, and also productivity for pop growth. Pop Growth is crucial, but not if it overtaxes the word's means, and plenty of sources state "not always enough Cadians", so I assume they aren't just a bun-oven, planet-scale. It doesn't allow for marriage, homelife, and other "frivolities", the way we might expect them, but this is grimdark, and it puts its own stamp on all of these things. Also, and I'm about to be a bix sexist here, so I apologize in advance, I can see Cadian women having to soldier, or at least heavy-train for it, during pregnancy. I don't see 40k as I often see today, where someone gets pregnant, and then halfway through, they bring a note to work, and don't have to lift anything over 20 lbs. My mom didn't take days off from work while she was pregnant, and I assume most of your parents didn't either, if you are around my age, or older. 40k isn't that nice, so I'd imagine training while pregnant would just be one more test, one more hurdle to make you the best you can be, and your baby will still be born fine. If an aspect of this banter has touched your personal life in a negative way, I apologize, but I'm from the time where we drank out of the garden hose, and other such "tougher" times than I sometimes see today, so yeah.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Pregnancy before conscription into active service might make sense, in that it at least ensures the woman gives birth before she might be killed in battle, or suffer an accident, or contract a deadly illness, or ... well, generally seeing her life cut short. So if a high quota of pregnancies really is a concern, then this might fit in.

 

At the same time, I don't even believe this would be necessary ..

 

To go with Codex interpretation of Cadia: if "only" every 10th trooper of the Interior Guard is recruited into the offworld Shock Troops, this leaves 90% of the soldiers planetside free to procreate (or not) in their spare time. Additionally, the Cadian Shock Troops are one of the few (if not only) regiments that actually return home after a tour of duty to get rotated back into the Interior Guard, and this includes not only them but also the children fathered during the campaign, basically forming a sort of immigration into Cadian society, with these kids being granted citizenship and, in addition to their own numbers, likely participating in procreation as well.

 

I'm no expert on demographic studies, but I could see the above system being sufficient to maintain the planetary population in spite of combat casualties, which only really affect the offworld Shock Troops anyways - the exception to this of course being the 13th Black Crusade which saw the Fortress World's local forces participate in the defence, causing an overall decline in population numbers.

 

Naive (simplified*) assessment:

 

If 100% of the planet's population counts as soldiers

but only 10% are actively fighting in warzones (Cadian Shock Troops)

this means that only 9 in 10 women somehow** need to rear 10 kids to maintain a balance

(children fathered by the Shock Troops themselves are considered a bonus here as their potential immigration is difficult to account)

 

*: dismissing the presence of retired seniors and invalids or child pregnancies, essentially assuming that all pregnancies would occur during the service

**: including twins, triplets, repeat pregnancies etc, meaning that certainly not every woman would have to get pregnant (accounting for early deaths, sterility, or simple refusal)

 

In general, I've never been under the impression that the Imperium in 40k has a problem with having too few people. Rather, it's quite the opposite - there is so much overpopulation and resource shortage that there exists a casual disregard for the value of not just individual human lives but hundreds of thousands of them.

Edited by Lynata

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

In general, I've never been under the impression that the Imperium in 40k has a problem with having too few people. Rather, it's quite the opposite - there is so much overpopulation and resource shortage that there exists a casual disregard for the value of not just individual human lives but hundreds of thousands of them.

 

 

Enter Commander Chenkov...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Really? Do you have a link regarding that topic? I was under the impression that she basically just carried that sword "for show", being more concerned with the role of an inspiring figurehead. Undoubtedly she participated in assaults (and even got injured), but I thought the only thing she'd held in her hands was her banner.

 

The legend of Jeanne d'Arc was actually one of the main reasons for me finally deciding on SoB as an army, and I am still curious about the real life history of that person. ;)

 

 

It's been a long time since I researched the Bastard of Orleans.  Journal du siege d'Orléans I think has a copy in it, but I'm not sure.  John was not a fan of Joan at his tactical planning meetings until the siege was raised and they apparently argued a great deal at first (despite how rosy they made it sound at her trial).

 

At her trial Joan comments on the excellent quality of a certain Burgundian sword she had received.  She described it as excellent for hard clouts and buffets.  Which suggests she did fight, even though at her trial she professed she never killed anyone.  Her preferred sword, for sentimental reasons, was the one she received from the church of Saint Catherine, but she sent it home apparently to avoid hard use (because she was beating the crap out of the other one from the sound of things, and could not recall where she lost it).

 

 

According to fluff, about 10% of the IG is female, the bulk probably being Cadian (WH40K:Space Marine).  Valhalla fields a few all female Regiments (For the Emperor), Tallarn does not (The Traitors Hand).  The Steel Legion (Hellsreach) and the Catachan Jungle fighters (mini) do.  Necromunda most certainly does, as do the Salavar Chem Dogs and Firstborn (Commissar).

Edited by BaronIveagh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the info! I'll try to track down some more details. :)

 

According to fluff, about 10% of the IG is female

 

Which fluff, precisely? I've never seen any hard number like that - especially as the background likes to diverge a lot depending on the exact source and the respective authors' personal take on the setting..

 

I sounds probable, though, given GW's unintentional(?) focus on male IG minis. Depending on how you interpret the miniatures and artwork representing the forces, there's very, very few regiments that have anything but men, which in turn makes the setting appear very patriarchal in spite of the background missing any actual "hard" background on that topic.

It'd probably fit to the culture of many pre-industrial and maybe even some industrialised worlds, though, for reasons similar to the real world Earth.

 

I did notice that the 3E Guard Codex actually showed a female tank driver for a regiment from "Dneipr" though (never heard that name anywhere else), and the all-female Xenonian Free Companies were represented as well. Though that's just 2 out of about 60 pictures, the rest being all males (albeit including mixed regiments such as Cadians and Catachan, who were only pictured with a male trooper as well ... could this mean that Dneipr is all-female as well, or is that just coincidence?).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spinward Front is established against separatist human population which is officialy declared traitorous, and therefore outside of any laws protecting normal imperial citizen.

Unless the regiment is extremely pious, has high moral standards or made of nobleborns who have serfs taking care of their needs, including sexual, it is very likely soldiers are not punished for (or even ordered to) ****, kill, enslave and rob enemy civilians. Whether you want to roleplay war crimes or not is another story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have a source for it, sadly, but I doubt that, with the demand for Cadian troops, both to serve on Cadia, and to fill the numerous requests abroad for the best regiment in the Imperium (I agree, you might not), that Cadia can't afford to lock up half their population in the "baby manfactoria". More likely, I imagine that young women fight in the forces, and as they get older, say into their 40's, and later, when many people aren't quite so fighting fit, they are withdrawn from the Guard/PDF, and breed, as women can breed into their 50's, and I assume that the Imperium might have some drugs to help these later pregnancies be more easy, frequent, and successful. This is my own vision, certainly, but I like Cadians, and so I often view them as great, and less segregated than many forces. I don't know the canonical truth.

 

I agree that they don't lock up Cadian women in baby factories, to keep their population up.

 

But I wouldn't be surprised if Cadian regiments tended not to be mixed-sex, and that the female ones do not get sent far from home, if at all, so as not to add to the high attrition rates the planet no doubt sees. That being said, this doesn't necessarily result in a sexually oppressive society, considering many 'warrior cultures' of the past tended to cede considerable authority to women, due to the male focus on fighting leaving them little time for management of the household, or other important issues (the Spartans, and the Iroquois, for two examples).

 

Of course, not only is this the Imperium we're talking about, but Cadia. Despite the possibility of Cadian women being planetbound (which is the way things are for most people anyway), they undoubtedly fill a variety of roles in the economic, industrial, and military infrastructure of the planet. Considering that someone who isn't working, and who is incapable of fighting, would be a drain on the overall 'war effort' that is life on the planet, so women certainly aren't going to be spending their entire lives in pregnancy after pregnancy. I could even see Cadians take life, and sex, more casually as a consequence of where they live. Someone is shipping off with the Guard in a week, and you'll never see them again? Happens all the time, no harm in giving them a tumble, ya never know when the next Black Crusade will hit and you'll all die.

 

I can't remember if it was from a novel, or the IG codex, but something like 1 in 5 Cadians who are qualified to be Imperial Guardsmen, are reserved for regiments assigned permanently on planetary defence, as well. So there's not exactly a shortage of Cadians, on Cadia.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would imagine that the male-centric guard miniatures has a lot to do with the cultural norms of the times they were produced. Now that women are allowed in combat roles in more and more modern armies, and feminist theory is well established scholarly study, the focus on women in combat IN fiction changes as well.

 

As a result, the fluff will change (as it often does).

 

The artwork of the newer Rulebooks is indicative of this. I am running Final Testament for my group right now, and the very first Imperial Officer they receive Vox comms with is a female Major in the Luggnum 3rd - who happens to be directly participating in combat at the time of the vox comms.

 

The game trends follow cultural trends, and one cannot change without impacting the other. So, it isn't really useful debating where it is in the fluff, since the fluff is essentially (to an extent) what we make of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, As the Social justice warriors on this forum delight in reminding us; I doubt you could actually tell a male guardsman from a female in 28mm scale! If you really wanted to differentiate the minis (And you're good enough) Paint their lips red. It's not really accurate, (I doubt many women in combat bother with lipstick!) but it will get the point across.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, As the Social justice warriors on this forum delight in reminding us; I doubt you could actually tell a male guardsman from a female in 28mm scale! If you really wanted to differentiate the minis (And you're good enough) Paint their lips red. It's not really accurate, (I doubt many women in combat bother with lipstick!) but it will get the point across.

 

**** you, sir! Just because a guardsman is male doesn't mean he can't wear lipstick! It could be part off their homeworld culture! :D

 

No, clearly the best way to go about this is to use green stuff to sculpt D-cup boobs on some of the figures and-AU! (my GF just slapped me!) :D

Edited by Robin Graves

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, As the Social justice warriors on this forum delight in reminding us; I doubt you could actually tell a male guardsman from a female in 28mm scale! If you really wanted to differentiate the minis (And you're good enough) Paint their lips red. It's not really accurate, (I doubt many women in combat bother with lipstick!) but it will get the point across.

 

I wish this forum had a "dislike" button.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would imagine that the male-centric guard miniatures has a lot to do with the cultural norms of the times they were produced.

 

Ironically, there used to be more GW-official female Guard minis decades ago (5) than there are now (2).

 

The fluff does not need to change. Indeed I hope it wouldn't, because it feels appropriate for some Imperial planets to be sexist. At the same time, the old fluff already had planets with mixed/equal regiments, and even entirely female ones. So one could argue that 40k has actually gotten worse over the past years, because the fluff currently doesn't mention all this stuff anymore.

 

GW nowadays treating the entire SoB faction worse than other races' subfactions doesn't help a lot either. And neither does FFG artwork giving female soldiers high heels.

 

I can't remember if it was from a novel, or the IG codex, but something like 1 in 5 Cadians who are qualified to be Imperial Guardsmen, are reserved for regiments assigned permanently on planetary defence, as well. So there's not exactly a shortage of Cadians, on Cadia.

 

In the Codex: Eye of Terror it was said to be 1 in 10, chosen at random to ensure an equal dispersion of ability and achievements.

 

Needless to say, I can't disagree more with your image of Cadian women, but I suppose in the end that is question of personal preferences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...