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CeaselessTiger

Torpedo versus Lance

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Hi all!

 

As you can probably tell, I'm brand-spanking new to the forums. However, I've played a few games from the 40k series and even a mod based on Dark Heresy (oh AdEva, how horrible thy Breach is). So I know a bit, but am relatively new to Rogue Trader

 

I'm here to ask a question about Torpedoes versus Lances. I'm essentially the only one who knows the ship combat rules in our game (even beyond the GM, currently). I'm also the Rogue Trader class, so people have (to a limited degree) just given me power over the ship.

 

My group has elected to use a Raider as our first ship. It rolled Reliquary of Mars and Ancient and Wise. We used the Cobra-class Raider from Into the Storm (think). 

 

Here's my question-type thing. I'm not trying to min-max this ship or make it good at everything. Currently, the only neat thing it has going for it is that it's kind of okay at Exploration. It's also FAST (Warpsbane Hull, Markov warp drive, archaeotech plasma generator). What I worry about is it dying in the beginning of combat. Being a Raider, we're squishy at 26HP (32 after I gave it Field Bracing). We have yet to fight, though. 

 

What I have on it now is Gryphonne-pattern torpedo tubes with Virus warheads and a Sunsear laser battery. I figure our schtick is going to be pirates since Raiders (again, no combat experience) seem good at ambushes? However, I worry about running out of these guys in mid-combat because you only get 28. And I do want us to be kind of independent and not have to restock after every battle and head back to Port Wander. The Starbreaker Lance does seem ideal for that. It's just, I'm super worried about long-term combat. The longer it lasts, the harder it seems for us to survive. 

 

Am I wrong? Am I stressing over nothing and should I just stick a lance on it and be all independent, going to different worlds? Or should I work on the Virus torpedoes to end fights rapidly without much damage (current strategy is torpedo, board, capture).

 

Current loadout: Gryphonne-pattern torpedo tubes with Virus warheads and a Sunsear laser battery.

Possible loadout: Starbreaker lance with plasma batteries. I'd have to get rid of the Melodium and Broadband Hymncasters. 

 

Again, not trying to minmax. Just trying to figure out which is more needed in a pirate Raider crew. Ending a fight fast or being able to last a while? 

 

Thanks.

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Raiders would be my last choice for a starting RT ship. Transports allow you to theme up for stealthy smuggling missions, and Frigates can be outfitted with enough armour to be able to take a hit or two, but Raiders are so incredibly fragile without the bonus of the Main Cargo Hold for endeavours.

 

Your plan for torpedoes is probably the best, because a Strength 1 Lance (which I believe is all a Raider can take) is not going to be dropping anyone, even another Raider. The Sunsear is one of the two best Macrobatteries in the game, but I would consider swapping it out for a Grapple Cannon from Hostile Acquisitions. That way your plan can be to try to kite people with Virus Torpedoes, then if they get too close suddenly surge in and attempt to lead a heroic boarding action that the PCs can get involved in to plunder a ship.

 

Also a Virus Torpedo is Near Unique meaning they must be required one at a time, and acquiring a War component incurs an additional -30 penalty to your Acquisition Test, so you are making a series of very slow, -80 Acqisition tests to replenish every single torpedo that you fire. I would try to get by on the threat of using the Virus torpedo more than actually using them. On the other hand, if you do want to be elite ship boarders, then the Virus Torpedo is the perfect, ridiculously expensive counterpart to the Grapple Cannon.

 

The other flaw with Capturing a ship is you need to keep the Navigator alive, you need to hope that they don't trigger a time-delay self-destruct sequence, and that your Raider doesn't have much of a crew population that you'll need to leave on board to deal with survivors/pilot the ship yourself, so if you get into an unexpected combat your ship is already running crippled.

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While I'd agree with Erathia that a raider isn't the ideal starting ship for a Rogue Trader, they can work.  I had (am having) a lot of fun, actually, with a tricky cobra raider during one of my previous games.  Of course, we were playing Black Crusade, but the principle still applies.  Don't bother with the Lance - Lances are hard to use decisively on anything smaller than a cruiser, or squadron.  The Torpedos offer you a bypass-shields offer.  Our crew elected to compliment them with a Jovian Missile System to save space, and based on the idea that we wanted to cause as much damage as possible turn 1, then evade and get into a good position for round 3.  (Reloading Torpedos takes time, after all)

 

Invest in an eyrpian mantle if you can - Raiders rely on shooting first, and best if they can shoot then move to a location that makes them a harder target.  On that subject, don't forget your maneuverability.  Raiders live & die by maneuvering.  Also, as tempting as capturing may be, your better off raiding.  Put a cargo hold on your own ship, take what's valuable then leave the ship to rot.  If your pirating.  If not, blow them to hell, run away, or sneak by.

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In response to Erathia: The GM has limited the number of books. Battlefleet Koronus, Navis Primer, Into the Storm, and Core are all that's allowed. Also, is it really -80 per torp? I figured it'd be +10 because you're buying 28 (so the scale isn't huge), then -40 because Near Unique. The Battlefleet Koronus book imposes an additional Acquisition penalty just because it's war? Jeezus, that makes torpedoes nigh-unusuable early on.

 

In response to Quicksilver: So, if Torpedoes are as impossible as Erathia says, what should I sub in instead of a lance? Sunear+Plasma? Jovian Missile bays?

 

In regards to all: Then what should I do with this low health Raider? I don't want us dying right away. That kinda thing kills a game and I really want to keep going on this one. We had one session and it went well, I just don't want to explode or have to consistently run away. Should I go and call up my mighty powers of "I am party leader, I have the Warrant of Trade, and you all voted me Rogue Trader and none of you understand the rules so shut up, we boardin' the Transport train, choo-motherf*ckin'-choo"? I don't want to be Captain Mywayorthehighway but I'd rather do that once over "WE'RE ALL DEAAAAD IN THE INTRO MISSION."

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Although I don't have the (any) of the books in front of me, I think your calculation is actually correct, not Erathia's.  A torpedo bay is a component - torpedos themselves are just items.  I'll attempt to distill the exact numbers later, when I have the books.  Of course, we didn't use special-nifty torpedos, we had plain old plasma-boom torpedos.  If not, well, Macrobattery up in some way, just keep in mind Space is your most limiting factor. (and you should use some for at least some kind of cargo bay, just for fluff/rp reasons if nothing else.)

 

WIth a low health raider, you have to accept your going to Run.  Not necessary away, but Run.  Your speed is your best, greatest and only asset.  Use Terrain, flip around to their back side, Fade, then sneak up and hit them again an hour (2 rounds) later.  Never, and I mean Never, let them have a clean shot at you.  At least, not more than one - you still have a void shield that'll take the first hit.

 

Keep in my with Transports, you gain some survivability, but out-maneuvering is no longer an option.  I find that transports are actually more vulnerable than raiders.

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That brings me to another question, then. 

 

Alright, let's say I go your route. Ditch the Sunsear and grab a Missile Battery. Now every other turn is shooting. Wouldn't this get a little...Iunno, one-sided? I mean, I'm the only one who can pilot. Our other guys are a Seneschal, an Explorator, and a Navigator. I want them to do stuff too, though. 

 

Also, can you do that? Scoot away, Silent Run with Empyrean Mantle, wait 'till they turn their back, BLAST 'em. I thought Disengage prevented us from doing that since you can't re-enter combat. 

 

Are there other places you can store torpedoes to boost your stock? Can I throw them into the Melodium and worry about that getting hit?

 

Is this ship badly built? It's got a Melodium, an Observatory, Field Bracing, an Archaeotech Plasma drive, Markov warp drive, Sunsear battery, M-1.r life sustainers, voidsmen quarters, Deep Void sensors, a Command bridge, standard shields, a warpsbane hull, and torps. And I spammed the crap out of craftsmanship, burning all 50sp we started with. Should I have invested in a frigate and minimal essentials with some nice bling on it?

Again, not trying to minmax but I also don't want us killed on day two of the adventure. I don't want us to take down Grand Cruisers but I also don't want us fleeing in absolute terror from a Transport. And I don't want to one-arm the GM and say "Dude, you gotta pull your punches." I want to to be viable and fair. I want a challenge. I just don't want us limping away at -3HI from a fight with two Raiders. 

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If you're using the rules as written in the core rulebook then there's no debate, because lances are worthless in the vanilla rules so if you're arming a raider either be a gunship or a torpedo boat and stay the hell away from lances. If you're using a variation of the mathhammer rules like you should be doing then Torpedos are the more consistanlty lethal option but they're still the option with more strings attached. Unless you have strong ties to the Navy or a forge world getting resupplies is going to be a pain in the ass, and remember that even if you have resupply points available your ventures may routinely take you as many as three months travel out from any of them.

 

Now when mounting torpedo tubes on a Raider you have to consider that by doing so you really are turning it into a dedicated torpedo boat, that componant is going to totally dominate the ship with that space requirement and you can only fire an absolute maximum of six full salvos before you're totally out of ammo and that's only if you keep four continually loaded inviting an increased risk of catastrophic accidents, if you don't want to do that you can only fire a full load five times. Realistically unless you're way too trigger happy or unless your back is against the wall you'll probably fire two at a time which will give you approximately 10-12 shots or three at a time for 6-8 shots before you're out/almost out.

 

Raider torpedo boats would be a fantastic addition to a well constructed warfleet. If I did have such a large composite force I'd rather turn my biggest ship into a carrier and not waste any of it's space on torpedo tubes/lances/macrocannons or any of it's turns trying to line up shots while the enemy just jinks around it's fat ass, likewise frigates are at their best covered in macrocannons, but if I was running a raider by itself without a fleet I'm not sure I'd want to further hyper-specialize it as a torpedo boat when Raiders are already way too damned specialized to start with.

Edited by Amazing Larry

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A Unique or Near Unique item must be acquired one at a time according to page 276 of Core. You can't acquire 28 of them at a single time, you make 28 individual acquisitions. They have individual rarities and the book specifically says you have to acquire them when they run out, it's not a free resupply. The table on page 274 of Core even references Torpedoes as counting as a "War" component, imposing the additional -30 even though they didn't print rules for Torpedoes for two more books. Which is good because they are incredibly powerful, but also very rarely made. If it was this easy to use Virus Torpedoes then literally everyone would use them because apart from Vortex Torpedoes they are so much better. Everyone can see the value in taking a ship intact with the crew dead versus blowing it to pieces. Also Near Unique is a -50 penalty, not -40.

 

Raiders aren't useless by any means, but they are definitely Hard Mode for a starting crew. Losing Hostile Acquisitions really hurts, because apart from Grapple Cannons you lose a lot of the Silent Running boosts like the passive detection array and the Variable Figurehead. Crank up your Maneuverability for Evasive Maneuvers when you close, purchase Defensive Countermeasures and Flak Turrets and that should help your survivability. Get an Empyrean Mantle for when you need to be sneaky and consider Pyros Melta-cannons. They have a low crit rating (for PCs), and Fire! is an excellent way to wipe out a crew but leave a ship intact. Your GM may rule that a lot of gear is lost, but it's another great way of tanking crew population. 

Edited by Erathia

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Why is everyone but my group so hostile to Hostile Aquisitions? It's one of the best books, and then his group keeps the Navis Primer?  Navis Primer is a ******* mess of a book and even if you like a few things in it you would be insane to implement it in it's entirety. I don't get it, I guess at least he's being allowed to use the other two key expansions but Hostile Aquisitions is so damned good.

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That brings me to another question, then. 

 

Alright, let's say I go your route. Ditch the Sunsear and grab a Missile Battery. Now every other turn is shooting. Wouldn't this get a little...Iunno, one-sided? I mean, I'm the only one who can pilot. Our other guys are a Seneschal, an Explorator, and a Navigator. I want them to do stuff too, though. 

Don't have my books in front of me either; however, I recall reloading torpedoes requires one full round.  And there is plenty of stuff for the other guys to do.  Scan, Lock On, Re-load the torpedoes, etc etc.

 

Also, can you do that? Scoot away, Silent Run with Empyrean Mantle, wait 'till they turn their back, BLAST 'em. I thought Disengage prevented us from doing that since you can't re-enter combat. 

I think what they all were implying was that you run out of their gun range and circle back around to attack at an angle they can't return fire from.  Like most ships can't shoot directly behind them, so the rear is the most vulnerable. Anyhoot, who cares if you do disengage from a fight.  Wait 4 hours and attack them again when you have an advantage (surprise, fire-superiority, position, dowsed your fires, etc.).  I can't see a GM saying "No, you can't attack them again because you disengaged from them a week ago."

 

Are there other places you can store torpedoes to boost your stock? Can I throw them into the Melodium and worry about that getting hit?

Don't have me books, but RAW I think it is only in the Munitions and/or the Torpedo components.  With that said, I don't see why a GM wouldn't allow you to store them in a Cargo Hold or similar component.  Anywhere else, like the Melodium you mentioned, is highly unfeasible as a large crew, machinery, and doors, winches, cables, and loading areas would be required to move them around.  So, it's up to your GM, really.

Is this ship badly built? It's got a Melodium, an Observatory, Field Bracing, an Archaeotech Plasma drive, Markov warp drive, Sunsear battery, M-1.r life sustainers, voidsmen quarters, Deep Void sensors, a Command bridge, standard shields, a warpsbane hull, and torps. And I spammed the crap out of craftsmanship, burning all 50sp we started with. Should I have invested in a frigate and minimal essentials with some nice bling on it?

I've had 4 players have two Raiders each, and they destroyed ships pretty easy.  This was before mathhammer rules though (GM and players discretion to use them).  Your proposed ship is good for a starting group.  Pretty good ship starting off, so after getting your PF up about 15 points you can invest in additional support craft, which all depends on your groups play style.  A) if low risk exploration and/or trade endeavors are your key, purchasing a transport to tag along with your raider would work wonders.  B) if medium risk military or criminal endeavors are your forte, then another raider or a frigate.  C) If high risk endeavors are what your group strives for, a light cruiser or above; however, you would probably need PF in the range of 60+ to begin to purchase one, unless obtained by other means.

 

Again, not trying to minmax but I also don't want us killed on day two of the adventure. I don't want us to take down Grand Cruisers but I also don't want us fleeing in absolute terror from a Transport. And I don't want to one-arm the GM and say "Dude, you gotta pull your punches." I want to to be viable and fair. I want a challenge. I just don't want us limping away at -3HI from a fight with two Raiders. 

If you are using Core RAW for ship combat, you will have utilize Evasive Maneuvers and strategic positioning in order to win fights using a Raiding.  Going toe to toe with anything that has macrocannons can get you blown to smithereens if the GM uses well trained NPC's to combat you, even on a transport.  Using mathhammer this almost will never happen (unless Torps or Bombers), and will allow you to disengage after getting hit a few times (unless Torps or Bombers).  Heck, even Cruisers aren't immune to Core RAW ship combat, and can get blown up by a ship with a high Str macrocannon in one turn.  So it's just against Raiders class ships.

Edited by Nameless2all

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I would allow my players to store torpedoes in other places, but they aren't in a battle-ready mode and can't be used during ship combat, it only extends their reloading capabilities out of combat. There is also a greater chance of them exploding should that component be critically hit because they're not being stored "properly". 

 

The problem with Disengaging/Silent Running is that you lose your ship's sensors so you have no idea where the enemy is. Hostile Acquisitions allowed you to scan while in Silent Running, but otherwise you're going quiet mode and hoping that no one scans you. My players have tried it twice, and the second time they were detected and the enemy encircled them before they came out of Silent Running. After that they've gone big and pompous. Disengaging is literally turning your ship off and praying, and I force them to wait at least one Strategic Turn just turning all components back on during which they are scannable and defenseless. There'd be no way of tracking or even maneuvering after the ship you're fighting if you try a Disengage.

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Both torpedoes and lances take up so much space, power and SP that they really limit what your ship can do. Best to keep them as a goal to get hold of in later game once you have bigger hulls available...

I personally would recommend a Shrike if you want to be doing piracy in a Raider class:

 

Ceaseless Tiger's Ship

MERITECH SHRIKE Class Raider

TURRET RATING                                       2

SHIELDS     Repulsor Single Void Shield

ARMOUR                                                   16

SPEED                                                      10

HULL INTEGRITY                                      26

MANOEUVRABILITY                                   35

DETECTION                                               30

SPACE AVAILABLE                                   35     SPACE Left Over           0

POWER AVAILABLE:                                45     POWER USED              44

Skill Test Modifiers: Tech-Use Repair Ship/Emergency Repairs -20, Ballistic Tests 15, Command  5

Weapon Capacity         Prow, Dorsal

Crew Disposition:   Fanatical

Crew Max    100%

Crew Quality  Crack (40)

Morale Max  100%

Achievement Bonuses: Military + 25

Essential Components

Jovian Pattern Class 2 Drive [C:GOOD Space], Miloslav G-616.b Warp Engine (T,R,F) , Gellar Field, Emergency Field (Roll 1d10, on 3+ Geller Field Activates if vessel is drawn into the Warp), Command Bridge (R, F) (If CRIT'd Unpowered on roll of 3+ on d10) , Vitae Pattern Life Sustainer , Auto-Stabilized Logis Targeter & M-201b Auger Array , Voidsmans Quarters

Supplemental Components

Munitorium (Explodes if Damaged, 2d5 HI loss and 1 Component on Fire),

Complications / Past Histories

Ancient and Wise,  Reliquary of Mars Weapons

Pyros Melta-Cannons  [strength: 3, Damage:1d10+5, Crit Rating: 4, Range: 4]  Location:PROW       Pyros Melta-Cannons  [strength: 3, Damage:1d10+5, Crit Rating: 4, Range: 4]  Location:DORSAL      

 

 

Apologies for the formatting but copying from the ship builder spreadsheet i was just mucking about with. So with this setup you have a crew rating of 40 and great maneuverability and detection, allowing players to focus on the BS tests. To which you get +15. And only need 4 DoS to get a critical hit.

As you get the option to upgrade your ship later on, get Best Craftsmanship Turbo Upgrades so that you can shoot out to range 8 without any penalty which, while still considered 'short range' in comparison to many other weapon systems, will be easy to manage due to how fast and agile your ship is.

If you are using the rules as written, then mass-firing the macros will benefit from the Munitorum boosting damage further. If you're using Mathhammer fixes then these will utterly slice ships apart - the first battery to fire will take down the shields and land one or two hits, while the second will land a couple more hits. So you have a incredibly good damage output.

I could go on for ages about ship building as its one of my favourite aspects of RT...

Edited by Kasatka

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I believe they're not using Hostile Acquisitions not out of some perceived imbalance but because they don't own it.  Surprisingly, not everyone has every Rogue Trader book.  

 

Anyway, regardless of the ship you choose except maybe a battleship or grand cruiser, you're going to run into some enemies you can take, and some who will kick your ass.  It's the nature of the expanse and well, anything with that kind of disparate nature.  A raider at least gives you the option to run-like-hell instead of simply turning and going dark.  

 

On that note, although you obviously can't use active augury while running silent, I can't imagine why your passive sensors would suddenly stop working when you cut the engines.  At least I assume that when you disengage you're not dropping to 0 power - just turning it way down and shutting of the big emitters, like the engine plume off the back.

 

Ultimately, we don't know your group or your play style.  The game I played where I had a raider, that was the whole concept/plan/thought for the game, so it was perfect.  If you guys want to be SuperMerchents™ or GloriousRogueTrader™ then you might be better off with a transport or cruiser respectively.  

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My goal is not to drop the game to Easy mode. There are things I (and my group) should run from and I understand that. Taking on a Grand Cruiser in a Raider should be suicide. I just want to drop us from the Hard mode that ya'll seem to be mentioning into Medium.

I like the idea of taking a few hits and maybe getting away crippled from a high-risk high-reward fight. I don't like the idea of fleeing from a Transport because it has a single macrocannon battery.

We're using Vanilla (with errata) rules at the moment, because the GM is hesitant to modify anything. 

 

Operating off the idea that avoiding a hit is the best possible thing, I modified the Raider. Some things I kept the same because we already used them (Warpsbane hull and the Markov 1 drive). I haven't crunched these yet, but tell me if this is better than my "Run out of Virus Torpedoes, restock Plasma 24/7/365" plan. Again, don't want to be good at everything and I understand our agility is our best strength. I just don't want to get my face melted because I flubbed a Pilot check. Gotta make room for the dice 'n all. I'm okay with building my character around the ship (to a degree), I don't want to make the rest of my party do that. ...except maybe the Explorator, 'cuz what else is Tech-Use for?

 

Total Ship Points Available: 50

Cobra-class Raider. Reliquary of Mars. Ancient and Wise. 

Lathe Pattern 2-a Sprint Trader Drive.

Good C. Markov 1 Warp Drive (space reduced)

Castellan Shields

Command Bridge

M-1.r Life Sustainers

Good C.  Voidsmen (space reduced)

Deep Void Sensors

Retro Thrusters

Empyrean Mantle

Thunderstrike Macrocannons

Pyros Meltacannons.

Broadband Hymncasters (to bluff our way out if we can't hide)

 

Also, is Active Auguary akin to sonar if you're on Silent Running? So, shoot, run, their turn, Silent Run to maneuver into position, their turn, shoot 'em up for two or three turns.

Edited by CeaselessTiger

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IMO, torpedo ships are better.  Your starting off in the game pretty good with 40 PF and 50 SP, so resupplying your ships torpedoes would either be (-10 for Rare, -30 for War Component) -40 for each Plasma Torpedo, or (-10 Rare, +0 for Standard) -10 for each Plasma Torpedo.  I think I went with the later, because the Torpedo Component, to me, are the Tubes.  Just like the macrocannons and lances each have their components.  Your paying for the component table 9-36, while table 9-35 should be the ammo or gear for those components.    Some people think the scale should be Negligible, which is +30, but that just seems to odd to me as a GM.  Anyhoot, the Acquisition modifiers are for you and your GM to debate about.  Everyone has their own little opinion on Acquisition rules, so I'm not going to presume to know what your GM has in mind.

 

Back on topic.  Are you down grading to the Thunderstrike Macrocannons because of the above issue, or is it something else?  Your current load-out is survivable, and could take out other Raiders, Transports, and Frigates pretty easy.  If your up against anything else, your in for a run for your money.  I'm sure you already knew that though.

Edited by Nameless2all

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Actually, that's my main goal! I'd like to have a difficult time with stuff beyond Frigates. I also took Peer (Imperial Navy) so I can make those Plasma Torpedoes Scarce. I always thought that since it was ammunition and I was buying around 28 at a time it was a Minor on scale, giving me +10. So, to acquire a group of them it would be +10 at a Naval Shipyard. I dunno, maybe I interpret the rules oddly. 

 

So, the Mk. 1 version of the Opportunity for Divestment was better?

Cobra-class Raider. Ancient and Wise. Reliquary of Mars.

Good C. Archaeotech Plasma Drive (power)

Good C. Markov Warp Drive (space)

Warpsbane Hull

Void Shield

Command Bridge

M-1.r Life Sustainer

Good C. Voidsmen (space)

Deep Void Sensors

Melodium

Observatory.

Prow Gryphonne Pattern Torpedo Tubes with Standard Guidance Virus warheads.

Field Bracing (supplied with 3 power)

Best C. Dorsal Sunsear Battery. (upped crit rating and strength)

Good Broadband Hymncasters (dropped power requirement)

Crew Rating: 35 (due to the Bosun)

Players: Navigator, Rogue Trader, Explorator, Seneschal. 

 

I'm downgrading in the Mk. 2 version so I have enough power to be sneaky but also not get hit. Also, so we can be somewhat independent and not have to run back to a refueling station every time or worry about being on a Feudal or Agricultural world and being unable to restock. 

 

I guess in a sense, the Mk. 1 version was my own design that was based on ending a fight as fast as possible since we're kinda squishy. The Mk. 2 is after input that I should try to avoid hits as much as possible and let my crew worry about shooting when they can, and dealing as much damage as possible.

 

I don't intend this to be the final ship. I plan for us to acquire more. I just want to make sure this guy is viable by himself until we reach 50-60 PF. Then get a trade-heavy transport and the Raider will be the main offensive tool. Transport is more tank/bait. Eventually (waaaaay down the road) I plan to completely replace the two with (godwilling, after burning a lot of profit factor) a Universe-Class Mass Conveyor and a Repulsive Class Grand Cruiser. Or Battlecruiser. 

 

I know the GM has a fight planned for tomorrow so that'll be the final version of the Raider. 

Edited by CeaselessTiger

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Looks like a nice ship, should be fun.  Particularly if you do some good exploring/scouting with it.  Which when (if) you go up to fleet work and transfer your flag, It'll make a great scout/skirmisher.  Now's the time to read up on what the other players can do during ship combat.  (Navigator in particular has some good stuff from Into the Storm & the Primer).

 

Make sure you come back after and tell us all how you fared.

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Alright, cool! I shan't worry about this guy anymore, then. Hopefully, the fight will go well. 

 

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I'll see if maybe I can get the GM to use Hostile Acquisitions later or maybe the Mathammer rules to make the lances viable. ...whatever the Mathammer rules are.

 

We space now. 

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Lances are always viable, the Mathhammer rules stop a Macrobattery from being overpowered. By RAW two Ryza Plasma Batteries salvoed together can hit a maximum of 8 times, which assuming you're up against 1 void shield will do, on average, 66.5 Hull Integrity damage. That's enough to one-shot anything of Frigate sized or below, excepting the Universe Mass Conveyor, and seriously injure a Light Cruiser or Cruiser.

 

The Mathhammer suggestion for Lances is just to make them Tearing. The suggestion for Macrobatteries is increase all their damage by 12, but make it apply against armour one at a time.

Edited by Erathia

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Oh, jeez. No wonder Mathhammer exists. 

 

It makes ship combat a lot more tense and unreliable. You still get the odd wild swing of amazingly good rolls (an Ork Rok almost took out my PCs once), but otherwise battles can last a number of turns rather than 3 at best.

 

It does have the unfortunate side effect of really sidelining Raiders as support attackers, but that is sort of their role in the fluff.

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Oh, okay.

 

Well, bright side is that I got him to agree to Mathhammer rules. Not only that but interpret Torpedoes how I figured they were to be interpreted (Virus Torpedoes are Near Unique but don't suffer the issue from being a Component. However, because of how scary they are, they can only be acquired on Naval Shipyards, but you do one Test to acquire a whole...magazine or whatever term you use for bulk torpedoes). 

 

I guess I have two more questions before I can consider this topic closed (still haven't gotten to our fight, but we will later today). 

  • Is the Universe-Class Mass Conveyor or Goliath-Class Factory Ship better than just getting a dusty ol' Transport? Even if I can't quite outfit it with weaponry yet.
  • We have a PC Navigator. Do we need an NPC Navigator when we get the Transport and have to worry about that guy making rolls or can we just say "He follows the PC Navigator and thus does not need to roll"? 'cuz the Navis Primer does a good job of slowing things down and I don't want to have to repeat the same luck-based process for a second ship. I also don't want to, say, lose my newfound trading ship because WHOOPS dice screwed you. Dice add a fun random element but save-or-dies aren't fun. I like being able to take two or three hits so I can at least realize "Oh, dude...I'm not doing too hot. Change of plans."
Edited by CeaselessTiger

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In the fluff many Charter captains use single-navigator convoys.  Granted, they're in more stable areas and dropping out of the Warp more often to make sure everyone's still together, but it goes to show that it's possible for a Navigator to provide jump-data to more than one ship.  If you have an NPC navigator on the other ship, she should be able to interpret your Primary Navigator's instruction and keep an eye out for any course corrections you make in route.  It might slow you down a bit, but that'll happen anyway with the transports slower warp drive (presumably not a markav).

 

On a related note, I don't recall any of the Navigator rolls being save-or-die.  There's Save-or-drop-out and save-or-hull-damage checks, but nothing that makes the ship disappear.  

 

On a fluff note, your Navigator can & should probably ask his/her house to provide the transport's navigator.  Actually, you probably have contract with the house requiring you to do that anyway.

 

As for class of ship - Jericho is really your "Just a dusty ol' transport".  a Universe-class is "Just my dusty ol' larger-than-anything-you've-ever-seen super-freighter", while the Goliath is traditionally more of a ship-of-many-uses. Both are good, but neither are your 'Oh,-Just-A-Transport".

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Obviously, I have to optimize the Mass Conveyor further is what you're telling me. Thus, it will have no guns and the bare minimum essential components. Other than that, nothin' but Main Cargo Holds.

1,000+ Cheevo points per Trade Endeavor here I come. 

Then I need another Conveyor to hold my gold.

And a final Conveyor to hold the people to count my gold.

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