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Saevus2

How does DH 2.0 compare to existing systems?

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Hey guys, my gaming group recently got into Only War and so far we really like the system and we were already 40k-heads so the setting it great.

 

I saw DH 2.0 and was wondering, how does the system stack up vs something like OW? Can you move things easily between the two? Is there a power creep difference?

 

 

Just curious.

 

Cheers!

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Dark Heresy 2e is very compatible with Only War. They're practically the same system, in a lot of ways. I don't think you'd have trouble transferring content from one to the other.

 

I'm not sure how DH2 PCs stack up to Only War PCs, though. Gut feeling says OW ones are a bit more competent.

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As always with a new FFG system and the previous game the new game is an iteration. There are some rule changes, but not a lot. Not sure how the character's stack up either, but overall relatively compatible with from what I understand a minimum amount of work to convert what you'd like.

 

Power creep is relative really.

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Even then I'd say you wouldn't have too much trouble porting things over. I mean, DH1e's internal balance was so hilariously broken when the supplements are added to the equation that I can't imagine porting their content to DH2e would be much more broken. 

 

The systems are still similar enough that a lot of content is transferable with minor effort. The idea of things being imbalanced seems to scare a lot of people off, but nothing's stopping you as a GM from going "hey, turns out this thing I ported over is broken as hell, I'm gonna go ahead and nerf it a bit". If that upsets your players you might have bigger problems than game balance.

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Sounds good! We are stuck in OW for a couple cycles, but I am notorious game system/book junky. I'll have to order me a DH and give it a look.

 

I am a bit scared if DH characters start with less skill than the OW ones though. These guys are wearing socks, armed with big laser pointers. We have done a couple OW test scenarios to iron out the rules and basically have a pool on who will die each time.

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The major boon of DH2 at least in my opinion is that characters have a lot more aptitudes so they can quickly get skills and talents for relatively cheap. I'd say your best bet is make character give them their starting xp and look at them, if they seem a bit empty give them a few (I'd say max 300) xp more.

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Assuming you're talking about combat balance, keep in mind that OW is based on an assumption of combat -ready characters. If you're porting NPCs over, keep that in mind, as they could overwhelm the PCs. Same thing for porting OW, weapons over; they may be too powerful for the DH NPCs to handle.

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I suppose I should go out and buy BC, as the adversaries section in DH2 is kinda skimpy(?).

That, and Necrons.

:D

 

Among other things, BC has a sourcebook for each of the Chaos Gods, with monster sections and lots of fluff. Of course, a lot of it is specific to BC. 

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Compared to the other current 40k roleplay systems, the new Dark Heresy is pretty much the same as Rogue Trader, Black Crusade and Only War, only with extra fate point options for each role the player is using. Rogue Trader uses the old combat mechanic, which made full auto weapons crazy. The Psychic powers are slightly different in how they work as well.

 

Aside from my problem with the aquisition system the new Dark Heresy is a vast improvment over the old book. Sadly it's just one book of material to use, instead of the old systems 8 books with character options, gear and other stuff. Thankfully converting it all is pretty easy.

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Compared to other games, mechanically it's similar to Only War, right down to the Aptitudes mechanic.

 

Because each player picks Homeworld-Background-Role, there can be a lot more variation in stats compared to a squad in Only War, where everyone has an identical Regiment and then choses speciality.

 

The players start fractionally more competent - starting stats of 25 (give or take the odd bonus) - and more fate points than a guardsman. However, there's no comrades and no option to start with more impressive hardware like a heavy bolter, plasma gun, chainsword, etc, like a guardsman can.

 

The background and role bonuses are good, though. Most of them give you an extra way to spend fate points, and things like auto-passing an awareness test can mean the difference between life and death....

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Not much to add other than OW and BC should convert easily.Fluff from DH1 will more than suffice until FFG cranks out more material, but their really is plenty IMHO to go with in just the core.

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I'm actually happy there's no Comrade rules. I never liked them.

As someone that constantly criticizes Only War for not endowing Comrades with any substance, I'm inclined to ask: "What Comrade rules?".

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I'm actually happy there's no Comrade rules. I never liked them.

As someone that constantly criticizes Only War for not endowing Comrades with any substance, I'm inclined to ask: "What Comrade rules?".

 

 

I've run OW for my IRL group and a totally different set of people online. Out of the ~dozen people there, one person had an interesting comrade dynamic, two remembered to take comrade actions with any regularity, and the rest completely forgot they existed. So yeah, not great rules.

 

OW also included that squad sheet to keep track of all of the comrades that had died and how over the course of the campaign, but I don't think we ever lost a single one. They only get hit on doubles and take 2 hits to kill. What would have lent a black comedy bent to the game ended up just being a wasted page of card stock.

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I've run OW for my IRL group and a totally different set of people online. Out of the ~dozen people there, one person had an interesting comrade dynamic, two remembered to take comrade actions with any regularity, and the rest completely forgot they existed. So yeah, not great rules.

 

 

 

 

I wasn't a fan of comrades either, but I wonder if people didn't remember their comrade very often because we've been taught, through most RPGs, to play just one character at a time?  Dunno.  It's a thought.

Edited by LordPasty

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I wasn't a fan of comrades either, but I wonder if people didn't remember their comrade very often because we've been taught, through most RPGs, to play just one character at a time?  Dunno.  It's a thought.

Oh I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. But when the most common benefit of remembering you have a comrade is a piddly +5 to hit, you stop caring pretty quick.

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I've run OW for my IRL group and a totally different set of people online. Out of the ~dozen people there, one person had an interesting comrade dynamic, two remembered to take comrade actions with any regularity, and the rest completely forgot they existed. So yeah, not great rules.

 

 

 

 

I wasn't a fan of comrades either, but I wonder if people didn't remember their comrade very often because we've been taught, through most RPGs, to play just one character at a time?  Dunno.  It's a thought.

 

 

I think it has more to do with the issue that Comrades really don't feel like characters. They are poorly represented in the rules, and exists in some kind of NPC-but-not-really/PC-but-not-really flux state.

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I wasn't a fan of comrades either, but I wonder if people didn't remember their comrade very often because we've been taught, through most RPGs, to play just one character at a time?  Dunno.  It's a thought.

Oh I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. But when the most common benefit of remembering you have a comrade is a piddly +5 to hit, you stop caring pretty quick.

 

 

People tend to care more when you have a competent sarge. Get Them! makes a massive difference - +4 Damage out of a lasgun makes it actually able to threaten the big boys, especially for Weapons Specialists with Lasgun Barrage.

 

Playing two characters is an odd one. Some people manage some inter-character banter but normally, as you say, people just either ignore them or treat them as a mobile stat bonus. Mind you, I've seen people treat minions in Black Crusade the same way - at least they can go off and do things on their own.

 

 

I think the DH2.0 rules are simpler, though.

 

Getting back to the DH2 query; the role and background bonuses are nice but far from overpowered. Hammer of The Emperor (the Guard one) is a marginal damage boost if shooting at the same target as someone else. The Warrior bonus (can't remember the name) is nice if you've got a full-auto weapon or a decent ballistic skill but it's hardly the end of the world; normally working out at spending a fate point to land an extra hit or two with a shooting attack.

 

The hierophant (what I'd use to make an equivalent sarge) is essentially limited to trying to use the command skill for Inspire (giving everyone else +10 on their to-hit rolls) but again, can spend a fate point to auto-pass.

 

The assassin can spend a fate point on a hit to add a few points of damage. Potentially worth it when one guy absolutely must drop now, or is in some decent body armour (Tempestus Carapace, for example) that you'll struggle to punch through without it.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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I actually don't mind the comrades too much, they don't have a lot of rules or benefits but they can aid in role-playing if used properly. I was playing a big dumb ogryn so I actually did most of my role-playing through his comrade who was an old-timer who had been there and seen it all and took it as his duty to show my character the ropes and act as a guardian so he didn't hurt himself.

 

Of course if I wasn't used to playing minions from Black Crusade it might have been different. They can actually add a huge dimension to role-playing when used correctly and it's easier because you have one dominant character who you focus on and underlings who are secondary, not like trying to role-play two full characters at once.

 

Of course one of my fellow players who's comrade had been injured in a life and death grapple with a powerful xenos decided to solve this problem by simply throwing a grenade at the two. When the battle was over he casually asked "so when do I get another comrade?" to which we replied that the rules suggested this should be after a suitable mourning period to give him a hint.

 

I guess most people play minions this way, if they remember them at all.....

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I actually don't mind the comrades too much, they don't have a lot of rules or benefits but they can aid in role-playing if used properly. I was playing a big dumb ogryn so I actually did most of my role-playing through his comrade who was an old-timer who had been there and seen it all and took it as his duty to show my character the ropes and act as a guardian so he didn't hurt himself.

 

Of course if I wasn't used to playing minions from Black Crusade it might have been different. They can actually add a huge dimension to role-playing when used correctly and it's easier because you have one dominant character who you focus on and underlings who are secondary, not like trying to role-play two full characters at once.

 

Of course one of my fellow players who's comrade had been injured in a life and death grapple with a powerful xenos decided to solve this problem by simply throwing a grenade at the two. When the battle was over he casually asked "so when do I get another comrade?" to which we replied that the rules suggested this should be after a suitable mourning period to give him a hint.

 

I guess most people play minions this way, if they remember them at all.....

A Comrade is not a Minion! If a player in my game showed that complete lack of remorse for his comrade, I would have had his character shipped off to a penal regiment (roll a new character!)! Sacrificing your "buddy" in combat is about the ultimate of bad things among real soldiers. It happens, but not casually. You can use your comrade for things other than a "mobile stat line" but they are an independent NPC at that point. Their stat line only applies in combat. Gm's should give comrades a personality like any other NPC. Why didn't the player just stick his bayonet in the offending Xeno? Given he would have gotten bonuses to hit and such and he probably would have saved his comrade, what gives?

Edited by Radwraith

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I actually don't mind the comrades too much, they don't have a lot of rules or benefits but they can aid in role-playing if used properly. I was playing a big dumb ogryn so I actually did most of my role-playing through his comrade who was an old-timer who had been there and seen it all and took it as his duty to show my character the ropes and act as a guardian so he didn't hurt himself.

 

Of course if I wasn't used to playing minions from Black Crusade it might have been different. They can actually add a huge dimension to role-playing when used correctly and it's easier because you have one dominant character who you focus on and underlings who are secondary, not like trying to role-play two full characters at once.

 

Of course one of my fellow players who's comrade had been injured in a life and death grapple with a powerful xenos decided to solve this problem by simply throwing a grenade at the two. When the battle was over he casually asked "so when do I get another comrade?" to which we replied that the rules suggested this should be after a suitable mourning period to give him a hint.

 

I guess most people play minions this way, if they remember them at all.....

A Comrade is not a Minion! If a player in my game showed that complete lack of remorse for his comrade, I would have had his character shipped off to a penal regiment (roll a new character!)! Sacrificing your "buddy" in combat is about the ultimate of bad things among real soldiers. It happens, but not casually. You can use your comrade for things other than a "mobile stat line" but they are an independent NPC at that point. Their stat line only applies in combat. Gm's should give comrades a personality like any other NPC. Why didn't the player just stick his bayonet in the offending Xeno? Given he would have gotten bonuses to hit and such and he probably would have saved his comrade, what gives?

 

 

In the Grim Darkness of the 41st Millenium there is only...Martial Honor.

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I actually don't mind the comrades too much, they don't have a lot of rules or benefits but they can aid in role-playing if used properly. I was playing a big dumb ogryn so I actually did most of my role-playing through his comrade who was an old-timer who had been there and seen it all and took it as his duty to show my character the ropes and act as a guardian so he didn't hurt himself.

 

Of course if I wasn't used to playing minions from Black Crusade it might have been different. They can actually add a huge dimension to role-playing when used correctly and it's easier because you have one dominant character who you focus on and underlings who are secondary, not like trying to role-play two full characters at once.

 

Of course one of my fellow players who's comrade had been injured in a life and death grapple with a powerful xenos decided to solve this problem by simply throwing a grenade at the two. When the battle was over he casually asked "so when do I get another comrade?" to which we replied that the rules suggested this should be after a suitable mourning period to give him a hint.

 

I guess most people play minions this way, if they remember them at all.....

A Comrade is not a Minion! If a player in my game showed that complete lack of remorse for his comrade, I would have had his character shipped off to a penal regiment (roll a new character!)! Sacrificing your "buddy" in combat is about the ultimate of bad things among real soldiers. It happens, but not casually. You can use your comrade for things other than a "mobile stat line" but they are an independent NPC at that point. Their stat line only applies in combat. Gm's should give comrades a personality like any other NPC. Why didn't the player just stick his bayonet in the offending Xeno? Given he would have gotten bonuses to hit and such and he probably would have saved his comrade, what gives?

 

 

Sorry last line was a typo I meant to say I guess most people play comrades this way.

 

And yep fully agree with you he should have tried to save his buddy, I guess he decided it was easier and safer to lob a grenade than get in close. Unfortunately he's not a straight role-player and looks more at how to win a scenario as if it's a board game than actually getting into the spirit of the events.

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