EOTE/AOR Lightsaber versus FAD Lightsabers

[Shakespearian_Soldier 502]

I've noticed that the lightsabers used in the first two games are different from the new beta. Of course, people could argue that the former books simply mention modded-up lightsabers, but that's not what I'm curious about.

 

What I'm keen to find out if whether the weaker lightsaber variants mentioned in FAD are better balanced for consistant use in the game? Or do people think that the Damage 10 variants were fine as they were?

[Lorne 2,021]

The sabers in Edge/Age can be constructed with mods included in F&D with the final price as listed therein, but prolly better to use the un-modded base stats from F&D since PC's don't typically start with modded-up weapons.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Lorne

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

The Damage 10 variants were far too powerful in comparison to other weapons in the EotE and AoR books, since it often meant that one hit would cripple if not outright defeat anything less than a seriously jacked-up Nemesis with a very high Wound Threshold, and even that wasn't a sure thing since having Crit 1 and Vicious 2 meant that it was easy to inflict critical injuries that left a foe badly hampered when the 'saber was wielded by a competent user (which could happen as many GMs did house-rule in a Lightsaber skill).

 

The F&D versions are far more sensible, enough so that if a GM wanted to allow a starting PC to have one (or obtain after the first adventure or two), they're not going to radically shift the balance of the game, and the guy with the vibro-ax is still competitive in terms of damage output if one considers equal degrees of skill with their respective weapons.  It's also not exactly easy for a Force user with a lightsaber to modify their weapons, so odds of them hitting the EotE/AoR stats are pretty slim since I'm fairly sure few of them have access to Mechanics as a career skill, which is (currently at least) the skill used to modify a lightsaber crystal to get those killer bonuses.

[Shakespearian_Soldier 502]

Which mods were applied to the base lightsabers to make them AOR/EOTE-esque? I remember reading that a crystal counts for two slots, or something similar?

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

The EotE/AoR lightsabers are the equivalent to a full-modified Ilum Crystal, with +4 damage, -1 to Crit Rating, and Vicious 2, which is around 700 credits' worth of modifications, though the F&D versions get a few extra Hard Points to account for the fact that they don't start out being uber-awesome.

 

Edit: Re-read the section on modifications in all three core books, having always thought the cost increased for each modification past the first, not that it was a flat 100 credits per modification.  My bad.

Edited August 23, 2014 by Donovan Morningfire

[EldritchFire 499]

It's 9k for the Ilum crystal (base of 6 damage, crit 2, breach 1, sunder), 300CR for the hilt, and 700CR for all 7 mods (+4 damage, -1 crit, +2 vicious) for a total of 10k, 10 damage, crit 1, vicious 2, breach 1, sunder.

 

-EF

[Doc, the Weasel 1,777]

It should be noted, that there are no "stock" lightsabers. They are all crafted by hand and adjusted by their owner(s). 

 

The EotE, AoR ones reflect this customization. The F&D ones are where PCs start working from.

[MrBaldwin 48]

I wouldn't mind seeing lightsabers keep one rank of Vicious to start.  Otherwise I really like the way they handled toning down lightsabers.

[2P51 33,444]

I really like the Lightsabers and how they can be personalized.  From crit or damage monsters, to a passive defense boon, and options in between.

[Issumar2380 32]

Our group voted to stick with the AoR, EotE lightsaber standard

[Shakespearian_Soldier 502]

I think I prefer the FaD ones - they're more balanced for a less experienced group, and also allow enough "modification room" that the players can make them into something more personal. Of course, there might be groups out there who feel a bit cheated if one of their EOTE/AOR characters have a Damage 10 lightsaber, and the FAD characters have to start with Damage 6.

[Lathrop 838]

Edit: Re-read the section on modifications in all three core books, having always thought the cost increased for each modification past the first, not that it was a flat 100 credits per modification.  My bad.

 

You had it right originally. Cost does increase, just like difficulty.

 

"Each additional mod installed in an attachment beyond the first increases the difficulty of the Mechanics check by one, and costs an additional 100 credits beyond the base cost."

[Scalding 83]

The Damage 10 variants were far too powerful in comparison to other weapons in the EotE and AoR books, since it often meant that one hit would cripple if not outright defeat anything less than a seriously jacked-up Nemesis with a very high Wound Threshold, and even that wasn't a sure thing since having Crit 1 and Vicious 2 meant that it was easy to inflict critical injuries that left a foe badly hampered when the 'saber was wielded by a competent user (which could happen as many GMs did house-rule in a Lightsaber skill).

 

The F&D versions are far more sensible, enough so that if a GM wanted to allow a starting PC to have one (or obtain after the first adventure or two), they're not going to radically shift the balance of the game, and the guy with the vibro-ax is still competitive in terms of damage output if one considers equal degrees of skill with their respective weapons.  It's also not exactly easy for a Force user with a lightsaber to modify their weapons, so odds of them hitting the EotE/AoR stats are pretty slim since I'm fairly sure few of them have access to Mechanics as a career skill, which is (currently at least) the skill used to modify a lightsaber crystal to get those killer bonuses.

I don't think the older versions of the lightsaber were at all overpowered.

 

The most deadly character I have seen in a EotE/AoR game has two vibroswords - fully upgraded (including Tinker and Jury Rigged), mind you, but they certainly compete with the EotE-version lightsaber.

 

I feel that a base damage 6 lightsaber is rather on the silly side.  I think it could be a couple points higher, still leave room for improvement, and not require 7 mods to reach its full potential.  While Jedi should be versatile, they are not generally known for their crafting skills.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

The thing with the vibrosword example was that it took the PC both time, credits and more importantly talents in order to get those weapons to that point, where the prior versions of lightsabers were incredibly deadly out of the box no matter who used them, with a number of folks finding that a PC acquiring one was often a game-changing event, since the damage on top of Breach 1 meant that many adversaries were being either butchered (minions) or severely crippled (rivals and nemeses) with alarming ease; after all Breach 1 means that a single success on that attack roll meant a lot of damage was getting through, and a single Advantage was enough to trigger a critical injury with a +20 bonus on the chart roll.

 

In a game where lightsabers are going to be a whole lot more common and the odds of having several party members using said weapons, they needed to be dialed back a bit.

[Scalding 83]

Ok, I see where you're coming from.  Yes, it took that character time, effort, credits and even strategy to improve his vibroblades to that point.  Also a party of players with those weapons would certainly present an unusual challenge to the GM.

 

I still feel that 6 damage out of the box is a bit too low.  Similarly, I feel that 7 mods on a crystal is ridiculously high.  Isn't there a nice middle in there somewhere?

[Shakespearian_Soldier 502]

To be honest, 6 Damage (+ successes) is enough to wade through most Minions, especially when you consider that their Soak is ignored (if valued at 10 or lower). This means that even a base lightsaber allows you to emulate the films, cutting down nameless foes whilst being forced to hack away at the big bad until you get that one lucky hit.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

To be honest, 6 Damage (+ successes) is enough to wade through most Minions, especially when you consider that their Soak is ignored (if valued at 10 or lower). This means that even a base lightsaber allows you to emulate the films, cutting down nameless foes whilst being forced to hack away at the big bad until you get that one lucky hit.

Which as you said fits perfectly with what we see in the films and even TCW series.  Luke plowed through Jabba's minions like a chainsaw through tissue paper, but Vader was a whole 'nother story.  Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon were decimating battle droids like there was no tomorrow, but Darth Maul put up quite a challenge, even mortally wounding Qui-Gon before himself being taken down.

[Issumar2380 32]

So with the FAD lightsabers Damage is a base 6+ success scored on dice rolls?

[Lorne 2,021]

So with the FAD lightsabers Damage is a base 6+ success scored on dice rolls?

 

Yes, instead of 10 + successes...

[Issumar2380 32]

Oh ok cool beans I like that better than the 10 damage

[yeti1069 345]

Does the difficulty for mods continue to go up, or does it cap somewhere? Is making that last roll for a fully upgraded Ilum crystal PPPPPPPPPP?

[Agatheron 657]

Keep in mind that in both EotE and AoR, Lightsabers are an extremely rare collector's item, rather than a "real" weapon that the players might use. The stats are reflective of one that might have been in the hands of a ranking Jedi Knight at the time of Order 66. As such, their value is reflective of the Black Market for such a rare item. I think with the adjustments in F&D, it allows customizations of these weapons, and frankly put them within reasonable reach of a PC group who wants to make use of them.

 

I think there would be a fair hue and cry if Lightsabers were not included in the first two games, but truthfully the approach in F&D makes them truly personal to the wielder. I like this approach, and I may even consider a basic lightsaber showing up in my Edge game.

[Lathrop 838]

Does the difficulty for mods continue to go up, or does it cap somewhere? Is making that last roll for a fully upgraded Ilum crystal PPPPPPPPPP?

 

There was some debate on it a while ago, I vaguely recall somebody e-mailing for an answer, but I can't recall how it ended and I can't find the thread either.

 

But basically in the rules, it says there's impossible tasks, this is supposed to be anything harder than 5 difficulty (formidable) and shouldn't be possible - examples include using reason to calm down a rampaging rancor. For these, it's basically just doing a 5 difficulty check, but require a destiny point be spent to even attempt it. But, the rules also say, to feel free to increase the difficulty past 5 (and flipping destiny point is up to the GM) as you feel necessary. So that's 2 ways in the book, and unless somebody can dig up whatever the answer was, it's really up to you how you want to do it.

 

I also recall a suggestion that after 5 difficulty to just upgrade it once for each mod past it instead of going to 6 or 7 difficulty.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Does the difficulty for mods continue to go up, or does it cap somewhere? Is making that last roll for a fully upgraded Ilum crystal PPPPPPPPPP?

According to Sam Stewart on the most recent O66 podcast, you'd actually upgrade the difficulty for every difficulty die past Formidable (5 purple).  So to get that 7th modification on your Ilum crystal, you'd be rolling against a Formidable with four upgrades, for a pool of 4 red and 1 purple.  Better not screw it up

[Lorne 2,021]

The saber listed in Edge & Age is a steal -- it only includes the book price for the attachment and upgrades, but it does NOT include the surcharge associated with the risk of hosing a crystal by rolling against 4 reds and 1 purple.