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question round - back from the vaults

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Ok folks - here it goes. Its been some time since i was around - so the questions have kinda stored up. Possibility is, some of these were answered already and i probably could answer some of theses myself, but am stuck. 

Big sorry for this load - but enjoy urselfs ;)


1) Immobilize

i do did find, that being immobilized while in a move action, the entire Movementpoint is drained. was this ruled somewhere? either that or i dont see the point in not spending already gained movement points while immbolizied, since i already performed the move action and now have the mps in pool (i know it is nuts, but we had a huge discussion about it....)


2) Bol'Goreth

i had a major argument with a player of mine whether Bol'Goreth gets affected by his own rampageaction.

"Bol'Goreth performs a movae action followed by an attack action. This attack affects EACH FIGURE WITHIN 2 SPACES OF EACH SPACE HE ENTERED during this movement. After this attack is resolved Bol'Goreth is stunned and Weakend"

Hit me - but Bol'Goreth is a figure, he is within the described spaces - so why would he NOT be affected by it?


3) Workman's Ring

"Each time you would suffer any amount of [Fatigue], you may instead place it on this card (Maximum of 3)..."

As i understand the card - a hero with full fatigue would not be able to willfully suffer fatigue and put it on the Ring, since in the first place he isnt allowed to announce the action - because of his stamina cap. i know this seems rather counter intuitive, but the ring doesnt enhance ones stamina, does it? The ring only triggers, once the fatigue is suffered, but i cannot descide to suffer a fatigue i am not allowed to take... ?


4) Counterattack


I'm having huge troubles with all these counterattack abilities 

Knight: Counterattack

"After an adjacent monster resolves an attack that that affects you, exhaust this card to perform an attack with a Melee waepon against the attacking monster. After this attack is resolved, if the monster was not deafeated, it may continue its activation"


Marshal: I am the Law

"Exhaust this card after a monster within 2 spaces of you resolves an attack that affects you. Perform an attack that targets that monster. Then, you may test [intelligence]. If you pass, suffer 1 [Fatigue] and that monster gains 1 condition of your choice"


Stalker: Ambush

"Exhaust this card whan a monster enters an empty space within 3 spaces of a trap token to immediately perform an attack targeting that monster. After the attack is resolved, if the monster was not defeated, it may continue its activation"


Wildlander: Firststrike

"During the overlords turn, immediately after he chooses a monster to activate, you may exhaust this card to perform an attack targeting that monster with a BOW. After this attack is resolved, if the monster was not defeated, it may continiue its activation"


What happens, when you get knockbacked (Spligg) during the attack, can you still use counterattack/I am the Law if the monster is (no longer) adjacent or within 2 spaces to you? My shot would be no - but my hero party enraged a lot and you know where this goes.


The Stalker gives me more problems. what kind of an attack is this? is it performed from th space the stalker occupies (which could be anywhere on the map.) i have to target the monster within 3 spaces of my trap token. but what happens when im equipped with a melee weapon? do i still get the attack since the "target is locked"? would i miss if it was a ranged attack and did not roll sufficient range from my occupied space? do i need LOS for my attack? this is driving me formal nuts.... . =(


Marshals "i am the law" is even harder on me. lets say i have a non-reach melee weapon equipped and i get an attack targeting a monster within 2 spaces. do i get the attack regardless of non adjascency?


5) Shadow Soul

can a Shadow soul be discarded any time? other familiars like the reanimate or wolf have this ability written on the skill, that summons them in the first place, not the shadow soul. Is it bound on the map, once on it? what happens, when another effect would place the shadow soul again, while still on the map - would it be replaced or ignore the effect?


some goes for the raven flock btw.


6) Skirmisher

Unrelenting: "Exhaust this card after resolving an attack with a Melee weapon with 1 hand icon. Perform an attack that targets ONE OF THE SAME MONSTERS with a different melee weapon with 1 hand icon"


it does say one of the same monsterS. the plural is what buggs me. I do think they added it to make it usable with the lvl3 skill (carve a path) - but again - would range and LOS be ignored, when you would move around lets say a corner? 


My hero party did argue, that monsterS is in plural, because it referrs to the monster group (they one hitted a minion goblin and wanted to use the ability to attack another minion goblin archer... .)


7) Lord  Hawthorne Heroic Feat

"[special Action] Perform an attack, then you may move up to 2 spaces and perform another attack against a different target"


Do i need a valid target for the first attack? or can i "hit the air", move 2 spaces and then perform another attack?


8)Image tokens - Conjurer

Conjurer: Channeling

"[special action] perform an attack with a Magic weapon. Measure range and line of sight from one of your image tokens"


i once tried to counter out a conjurer with the OL-Card Blackout "Play this card at the end of your turn. Until the start of your next turn, monsters cannot be targeted by an attack, unless the attacking hero is within 2 spaces of them".


The conjurer did try to make his attacks through his image tokens, standing hell i dont know where away. he argued, that the image tokens were hero figures, within 2 spaces of the monsters, and the space from which the attack was measured.

My argument was, that it was the HERO performing the attack THROUGH the image tokens, resulting in him standing more than 2 spaces away and not be able to perform the attack. The argument did go on. What is your opinion?


9) Conjurer and treacherous shadows

Treacherous Shadows: "Play this card at the start of your turn. Each hero tests [Willpower]. For each hero who fails, you may perform an attack with that hero as if he were one of your monsters. You can force the hero to attack himself"

Since image tokens are treated as hero figures and do have a willpower roll (that of the conjurer) they are per rule affected by this card. but they do not have a waepon or their own attack dice. Does the overlord affect them but does not get resolved in the end? do they get a blue attack die on themselves - since a hero ALWAYS has the possibilty to attack with a blue attack dice?


10) Hexer

when does a monster become hexed? everytime it gets a hexed token? or only when it gets his first hexed token? i find this hard to decide, butimportant for internal rot "Each time a monster becomes hexed, you may place 1 additional hex token on that monster."


11) in the Nerekhall Campaign there is a Quest bugging me - widespread panic


in encounter 2, there is an objective token on the map which can (under certain conditions) be treated as a monster that "may not be the TARGET of an attack, when within 3 range of a changeling". on that time i had a group with a skirmisher who had carve a path. He laughed out loud, would stand next to her, carve a path and beat **** out of her 12 life. 


The rules sure say cannot be targeted... do i miss something between targeted and affected? otherwise this quest ended quit unsatisfying.


2nd. the villagers in the case above have to move in the water spaces. the rules do not mention anything about blocking movement or LOS. So i moved them as i'd like (3 spaces every turn) resulting in some of them standing on another. per rules this seems legit (again counterintuitive - and my heroes argued it would not be possible). am i missing some per se rule on villager tokens and occupying spaces?


12) I got alot of trouble with some basic 2 cards and the bloodape monstergroup

Leap Attack "This monster may move its Speed, ignoring enemy figures as it does so. When it finishes its movement, perform a single attack that targets each figure this monster moved through. Each figure rolls defense dice seperately. Limit once per turn"


Lets say i get a lock on 3 heroes with this action, including a healer and a warrior. I play mental error on the warrior, which he fails. does the ENTIRE ATTACK gain +2 damage, or only that against the warrior, same goes for the pierce from "dirty fighting". or do we suddenly have 3 different attacks?


NOTE, that the wording is QUITE DIFFERENT to fire breath, which first targets 1 hero and then AFFECTS several others.


13) in the Trollfenns Campaing there is a Quest which i have aquestion to - SOURCE OF SICKNESS


in the reinforcement section it says "at the start of each overlord turn, he may discard an infested villager not being carried to place a minion plague worm in an empty adjacent space." 

can the OL do this - even if the group limit of plague worms is on the map? would a plague worm then "Warp" to that villager position? 


On another section in the rules it says "place 2 fatigue tokens in the overlords play agea for each infested villager discarded." which i intuitively would relate to the situation of a villager discarded into the pit by bol goreth or a master minion - to which section this rule referrs. My friend argued, that it says each time a villager is discarded the OL would get 2 fatigue (of 10 needed for the OL-Win condition), resulting in an early end in round 2. am i getting something wrong?




sorry for this awfully long post...




krawallbürste ;)




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I can't answer to all, but some


1) I think it's in the FAQ


2) It's not precisely said, but a figure never attacks himself.


3) It's a detail. Let's say the ring is a "charge" that can be used to store 3 fatigue on it by quest.


4) They are not functionning the same way

I am the law allow you to counter attack 2 spaces away even without reach, since it's precisely written on the card. (2 spaces)

Ambush need the target to be legal, since it's say "targeting". Melee weapon can only target adjacent spaces, so I you have a ranged weapon, you can target a monster who is not adjacent to you. If the weapon have reach, you need to be 2 spaces within the target and the target within 3 spaces of the token.

Since it's a normal targeting, every normal needs for an attack apply : you need LOS and range.

Don't see the point with first strike


5) I'm not so sure about this one, but I would say the shadow soul can't be discarded at will. But anytime he should be spawned elsewhere, it is taken from his current position and put in the new one, as all other stuff.


Same for Raven Flock


6) This "problem" is simple : the plural is only if you attack targeted multiples targets. Then, you can choose one amongst thoses targets and attack it with another weapon. That's all. So, no group logics, or whatever !


7) You always need a valid target for an attack, whatever the attack is. You can never target an empty square or a friendly figure


8) I would say you're right. The image token is a relay to do attacks, but not a real hero. It's is treated as a hero figure for the purpose of attacking it (because you can't target tokens normally). But you could ask FFG for this one.


9) I must say I don't know. Maybe you shoud ask FFG for this one too, like above


10) First time he takes a token if I red well the LoR rulebook


11) Ask FFG. I would say targeted and affected are 2 differents things, but it looks like it is not.


12) I would say it work, since it use the word "target". But FFG needs to clarify this wording anyway so, ask FFG for confirmation. I personnaly play that the whole attack has +2


13) Dunno for this one, sorry

Edited by rugal

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1) Yes, the MP pool gets drained to zero. I think it's in the FAQ, but it might be in the unofficial FAQ.


2) I have not seen an official ruling on this, but it actually sounds a lot like the Runemaster's "break the rune." This one would be worth submitting to FFG, there is precedent for an area attack affecting the figure that performs it.


3) The Workman's Ring overrides the normal rule about suffering fatigue in excess of your stamina. It's a piece of equipment that explicitly allows you to suffer that fatigue. 


4) It is my opinion that any attack must have range and line of sight unless an ability specifically allows otherwise. Most of the abilities say "ignoring range and line of sight" or something to that effect. The ability gives you the ability to perform the attack, but it doesn't guarantee a hit.


5) I don't know about the shadow soul. If the card doesn't state it can be discarded, perhaps it cannot be. Other familiars can be "re-summoned" in a new location. This may require an official ruling.


6) The plural definitely just allows for the possibility that the initial attack targeted multiple monsters, it doesn't extend to the rest of the monster group. Just like #4, the attack action is allowed by this ability, but you still need to be able to declare a valid attack for the ability to be applicable.


7) You cannot attack an empty space. Attacks may only be declared targeting spaces containing enemy figures, unless stated otherwise (such as the geomancer's attack targeting a space containing a summoned stone.)


8) I have become quite interested in the conjurer- the conjurer is making all the attacks, not the token. The rare scenario I have encountered where a token itself performs an attack is the champion's ability "No Mercy." The image token can discard 2 valor and perform an attack. However, it would not roll any dice unless granted by another ability. (I received an FFG clarification about this, but haven't posted it yet.)


A note in response to Rugal: the image token is treated as a hero figure always, not just for attacks. The status allows it to be treated as a hero for the purposes of "hero and monster abilities, attacks, and OL cards that target a hero." Otherwise, it is also counted as a figure, regardless of the circumstances.


9) As per #8, the image token could be tested, and could attack. However, as in #8, it would roll ONLY dice granted by additional abilities. It would not roll a blue. I do not know whether the attack would be melee or ranged.


10) I read internal rot as meaning "each time you would give a monster a hex token, you can give it 2 hex tokens."


11) Targeting and affecting are two different things. For example, with "Fire Breath," the initial space the shadow dragon attacks is the target space, and the figure in the target space is always affected by an attack. The additional spaces the attack is traced though are only affected. Same with "blast." Check with FFG if "carve a path" is valid. RAW, it seems it is.


12) The attack is a single attack- it gets modified by cards like "Dirty Fighting" and extends to all figures affected by the attack. I actually often use this trick by targeting a healer with a shadow dragon, using "Dirty Fighting" to add the surge for fire breath if necessary (damage if not) and a pierce 1 to the whole thing.


13) I think there may be a ruling on this somewhere, but I don't remember where. I know it's been discussed, at least. In any case, RAW, discarding the villager to summon the worm gets you tokens. However, I think somewhere there is a rule about group limits being in effect unless specifically stated otherwise. As such, I don't think you could summon worms beyond the group limit.


You're right, that was a lot of questions.

Edited by Zaltyre

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A note in response to Rugal: the image token is treated as a hero figure always, not just for attacks. The status allows it to be treated as a hero for the purposes of "hero and monster abilities, attacks, and OL cards that target a hero." Otherwise, it is also counted as a figure, regardless of the circumstances.

So, the illusion token's square is "blocked" and cannot be entereted without flying for example ?

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A note in response to Rugal: the image token is treated as a hero figure always, not just for attacks. The status allows it to be treated as a hero for the purposes of "hero and monster abilities, attacks, and OL cards that target a hero." Otherwise, it is also counted as a figure, regardless of the circumstances.

So, the illusion token's square is "blocked" and cannot be entereted without flying for example ?



Correct. For all intents and purposes, the illusion token is an actual physical entity, it's an illusion to all senses, including touch.

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A note in response to Rugal: the image token is treated as a hero figure always, not just for attacks. The status allows it to be treated as a hero for the purposes of "hero and monster abilities, attacks, and OL cards that target a hero." Otherwise, it is also counted as a figure, regardless of the circumstances.

So, the illusion token's square is "blocked" and cannot be entereted without flying for example ?


For monsters, yes. For heroes, it's like there was a hero figure there- they can move though, but not stop there- and it blocks LOS just like a reanimate would. You can think of the image tokens as almost familiars, but distinct in that they don't get an activation of any kind. 


In most cases, an image token can't act on its own- for all of the Conjurer's abilities, it is the Conjurer acting through the image token.

The few things that image tokens commonly do for themselves is:

-roll attribute tests (using the Conjurer's normal attributes)

-roll defense when attacked (a gray, + anything granted by abilities like "Stoneskin.")


Examples of things image tokens could do for themselves in special circumstances:

-Perform a move action granted by Syndrael's heroic feat (EDIT: Image tokens don't have a speed value. While Syndrael could choose an image token for her feat, the image token wouldn't actually go anywhere.)

-Discard valor to add a wound to an attack (Champion's Valor of Heroes), or a defense (Glory of Battle), or reroll an attribute test (Inspiring Presence) or even perform an attack (No Mercy) (as said, it would only roll dice it was granted from abilities, like a yellow from the Disciple's "Divine Fury.")

-Be dark charmed.


I think of the image tokens as illusions of the hero who creates them- to the monsters they look like Ravaella, or Quellen, or Shiver, etc, and that's the reason behind the skill "Sleight of Mind" and "Blinding Light." For one you (the real hero) are appearing where just your illusion was before and stunning the monsters there. For the other, you're creating a disorienting flash, and in the confusion you leave a copy to deceive the monsters, while you move two spaces away. However, these are illusions that the Conjurer can direct his energies through to attack, and he can also see what the image sees (giving him range and LOS) but his connection to them comes at a cost- when they are damaged, he feels the pain as well, if only lightly, hence the damage and fatigue.


As you may have noticed, I really enjoy this class both thematically and mechanically.

Edited by Zaltyre

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Answers from Nathan as follows:


2) Bol’Goreth does not attack himself. Figures cannot attack themselves unless it is specifically called out.
3) A hero that is fully fatigued can use the workman’s ring to suffer that fatigue instead. The hero cannot suffer the fatigue in excess of his Stamina, but using the ring does not do so, therefore it is permissible. 
4) Each of these cards allow the hero to perform the attack, however, they still need to follow the standard rules for performing the attack (LoS, range, adjacency, etc). If their current weapon does not allow them to perform the attack, then they can’t do it. 
5) The shadow soul cannot be removed at any time during the turn, but can be summoned to a different location if it is already on the map and a hero skill places it somewhere else. In this case, it is simple picked up and placed in the new location. The same goes for the Servant token: the rules specifically state that when it is summoned, it is removed from its current location and placed as instructed; this creates a new servant, so any previous damage, conditions, or otherwise are discarded.
8) That one is tricky. I would say since you are counting from the image token, that is the distance that should be considered in regards to Blackout as well. So yes, if the image token is within 2 spaces, the attack is viable. 
9) The image token could perform the attack, however, it would roll no dice. 
10) I would say the first time. If they are already hexed, they would not gain an additional token.
11) This could be errata’d but I’m not sure that’s necessary. As written, she can be affected by attacks, and either the heroes will need to set this up or the overlord can choose that she is not the siren. 
  You played the villager tokens correctly. 
12) Because there are multiple targets, a game effect that adds damage to the attack adds the damage to each target. 
13) The section that states that the overlord gains 2 tokens for each discarded villager token is speaking to the previous paragraph. Villager tokens discarded when reinforcing do not grant the overlord fatigue tokens.

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Be sure to post your answers on this thread: http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/863073/ffg-sez-thread-link-wiki-1st-post-unofficial-answe


Though I would probably break them down by question so it's easier for the moderators of this page http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Descent_Second_Edition_Unofficial_FAQ to sort through them. (As opposed to all the questions together followed by all the answers together)

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