Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Scalding

Knight Level Play - too soon?

Recommended Posts

If I was to stat Darth Vader I would use the adversaries rules not the career choices in FAD because as the Counselor career states that this Consular career is not the same as the Jedi Consular of the Old Republic hence if I was to stat Obi Wan or even Yoda I would modify the Jedi in Hiding to suit my needs but back to Vader I would use the Inquisitor as the base and build from there brawn 7 agility 3 cunning 3 intellect 3 willpower 4 presence 4 and I would use the warlord and add mechanics and pilot(plant, space) skills at 4 and lightsaber at a 4 and talents would vary I probably throw in some Shien Expert talents saber throw defiently and as far as Force Powers Sense, Bind, Move, Enhance, a Force Rating of 5 and that's bout it plus the bonuses on his armor

Edited by Issumar2380

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I`m sorry, I only have the Edge of the Empire book and I haven`t looked that much into my brother`s Age of Rebellion book. What is knight level? And is 150 xp awarded xp after char gen or total xp with starting xp and everything?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I`m sorry, I only have the Edge of the Empire book and I haven`t looked that much into my brother`s Age of Rebellion book. What is knight level? And is 150 xp awarded xp after char gen or total xp with starting xp and everything?

Knight Level simply provides a character with 150 XP that is awarded after character generation (so no spending it on increasing your characteristics) as well as the option of a basic lightsaber (which is much less powerful than the EotE lightsaber) or 9000 credits on top of the base 500 that all PCs get.

 

In short, it lets the PCs make characters that are generally more capable in their field of expertise and have some pretty nifty equipment when they begin their adventuring career.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I`m sorry, I only have the Edge of the Empire book and I haven`t looked that much into my brother`s Age of Rebellion book. What is knight level? And is 150 xp awarded xp after char gen or total xp with starting xp and everything?

Knight Level simply provides a character with 150 XP that is awarded after character generation (so no spending it on increasing your characteristics) as well as the option of a basic lightsaber (which is much less powerful than the EotE lightsaber) or 9000 credits on top of the base 500 that all PCs get.

 

In short, it lets the PCs make characters that are generally more capable in their field of expertise and have some pretty nifty equipment when they begin their adventuring career.

 

Ok, I see. And where is this from and what is it related to?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

It's from the Force and Destiny beta book. Soon to be in your FLGS as the full game.

 

-EF

FYI, it my be in the gm screen booklet instead of the core based on the marketing mats they've put out.

 

 

It'll always be in my beta book, GM screen be damned! lol

 

-EF

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far, I've estimated a Knight at about 600 XP.

 

This allows for 5 different force powers, with about 30 XP spent on each...

 

Half a saber tree

 

Enough of the other two career trees to make a beeline for force rating

 

Characterestics of 4, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2

 

Level 1 skills in all career skills+3 pro dice in lightsaber

 

Which seems to be about right for a Knight.

 

I wouldn't consider anyone a 'master of their form' until they've got the entire talent tree for that form learned. I mean all of it. Even the one the player doesn't think is necessary. Thus, if I made Obi Wan, you can be sure he'd have Soresu Defender maxed out, for example.

 

Vader was a master of form 5 (capped) and had elements of forms 2, 3, and 4 in his style. So he'd have Form 5 capped, and about half of the form 2, 3, and 4 trees...

 

By contrast, Dooku had Form 2 Capped, with perhaps some other stuff mixed in.

 

Sidious and Yoda mastered all forms, so they'd have EVERY saber tree capped out. (If Yoda likes Ataru, it's because he has agility 6 and force dice to back it up...)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, using just what you see in TPM film you'll notice that while Obi does use the force regularly, he never really does anything that requires a high FR.

 

Feel free to mention anything I missed, but offhand he.....

Holds his breath

Knocks over some battledroids

How many droids? At what range? According to my math, this would require at least four pips to make happen — one pip for the base move power, one pip to activate the necessary strength upgrade(s) since the droids are Sil 1 and not Sil 0, one pip to activate the necessary control upgrades to affect that many droids at once, and one pip to activate the necessary range upgrades to affect them at that range.

If he doesn’t spend enough XP to get the various upgrades he needs to make that happen, then he’d have to spend even more pips in order to be able to activate the same upgrades a second time, and a third time, and however many times are required.

That simply wouldn’t be possible at less than FR2, and more likely FR3. And FR3 isn’t cheap to get, regardless of how you do it.

Talent-wise he:

Reflects

He would need multiple ranks of Reflect to avoid taking any damage at all. Four ranks of Reflect would let him avoid six points of damage, which would correspond to the type of weapon that B-1 battle droids typically had — but not their successes that they would have rolled, so he’d need more than four ranks of Reflect. And you don’t get that many ranks of Reflect without going pretty deep into at least two specializations.

So with the film as my guide I notice two important things:

1) He never really does anything that requires a roll of more then 2 force pips

Incorrect. He would need at least four pips for the move that you described.

And he would need a lot of ranks of Reflect, as well as Improved Reflect.

Now about the whole: "But as a Jedi I should have a waaaay higher FR then some farmboy that hasn't trained a day in his life!" issue.

 

Should you? We assumed so for a long time because of a chart in the EotE beta, but that chart was eliminated and hasn't been seen since.

I certainly don’t know what chart you’re talking about. Did it say something like FR1=Initiate, FR2=Padawan, FR3=Knight, FR4=Master, and FR5=Grand Master?

So when you look at F&D now, you'll see that Force usage isn't intended to be as much about power as training. Max our your FR all you like, if you don't got the Power tree to go with it you're not much better then a guy with a low FR, but his power trees carefully leveraged to make the most of those few pips he will be rolling.

Sure, you need the power trees appropriately filled out. But that takes XP.

And you still need enough FR to get enough pips to activate the powers that you have. And that takes XP, too.

And XP is our main limiting factor here.

But there you have it. My certain point of view.

I think you’ve got a good idea to do a minimal build to accomplish what we see in the movies, but I disagree about just how minimal that build really could be in order to do what is required.

But YMMV.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So far, I've estimated a Knight at about 600 XP...

 

If it were only that easy. The problem has never been XP. That's the big red herring. The problem was basically everything else in your build and how that translates to a non force user. When you say "Knight level must have X number Talent tress, with minimum of Y experience in each,  Z Number force powers with Q experience invested in each... ect." Then of course you'll end up with a somewhat balanced, powerful "Jedi Knight" that feels like Obi and Ani in RotS.But what if I want to play Capt. Rex? Or Padme? Or Jar-Jar? Without the force powers, saber trees, and so on to soak up XP, you've got two options: Spend months and months developing a similar restriction list for non force builds, or knock down my XP,  putting us squarely back in WEG/WotC territory of after a certain point the game turns into "The adventures of Jedi Knight Obi-Von-Awesomesauce and his boring worthless nonforce using entourage that we wish would just go away...."

 

600XP is no doubt working for you for now. But it's not about you, it's about the public at large. The game needs a way to allow for that happy joy-joy lightsaber starting game, while still leaving things in a nice happy middle zone where XP is a thing people want, the GM can still challange the powergaming lunkhead that puts everything into Move, Discipline, FR, and goes Dark form day one, and the guy that wants to play Han Solo to your Luke doesn't feel like a worthless waste. Figure that out (and make it not be 20 pages of red tape and build limitations) and you'll impress everyone.

 

 

 

 

I think you’ve got a good idea to do a minimal build to accomplish what we see in the movies, but I disagree about just how minimal that build really could be in order to do what is required.

But YMMV.

 

To each his own, but to quantify some points so you'll see where I'm coming from:

 

 

Ghostofman saidsnapback.png

So, using just what you see in TPM film you'll notice that while Obi does use the force regularly, he never really does anything that requires a high FR.

 

Feel free to mention anything I missed, but offhand he.....

Holds his breath

Knocks over some battledroids

How many droids? At what range? According to my math, this would require at least four pips to make happen — one pip for the base move power, one pip to activate the necessary strength upgrade(s) since the droids are Sil 1 and not Sil 0, one pip to activate the necessary control upgrades to affect that many droids at once, and one pip to activate the necessary range upgrades to affect them at that range.

If he doesn’t spend enough XP to get the various upgrades he needs to make that happen, then he’d have to spend even more pips in order to be able to activate the same upgrades a second time, and a third time, and however many times are required.

That simply wouldn’t be possible at less than FR2, and more likely FR3. And FR3 isn’t cheap to get, regardless of how you do it.

2 Pips usually is what you'll need based on the interpretation of the rules. I'd have to watch the film again, but IIRC when I did this I noticed two things:

1) Short range. Not medium. So that means no need for range upgrades. Of course this will be up to what you consider "Short" to be.

2) He doesn't push several droids at a time, he pushes a single minion group of droids. Again, this is an interpretation call RE:Does a minion group count as a single character, or separate when determining effects? Which I think you've seen the threads on that.

 

So that's how that one works: If you assume he's at short range, and treat the minion group as a single character, you need 2 pips. Obi still has to roll hot or flip pips often.. but you can get away with it.

 

 

Quote

Talent-wise he:

Reflects

He would need multiple ranks of Reflect to avoid taking any damage at all. Four ranks of Reflect would let him avoid six points of damage, which would correspond to the type of weapon that B-1 battle droids typically had — but not their successes that they would have rolled, so he’d need more than four ranks of Reflect. And you don’t get that many ranks of Reflect without going pretty deep into at least two specializations.

This is one of those things that doesn't translate well, and even D20 to this day in D&D5 has this issue.

"When does a hit = visible verifiable physical injury?"

Everyone will have a different opinion, but the way I'm measuring it within the system WT is largely your plot armor, it's not until you get to Crit effects that you start to see undeniable visible injury.

So Obi was reflecting, just not on a level that resulted in completely negated damage. He was wearing down his WT plot armor which is why he didn't just stand around all day reflecting.

 

 

Quote

Now about the whole: "But as a Jedi I should have a waaaay higher FR then some farmboy that hasn't trained a day in his life!" issue.

 

Should you? We assumed so for a long time because of a chart in the EotE beta, but that chart was eliminated and hasn't been seen since.

I certainly don’t know what chart you’re talking about. Did it say something like FR1=Initiate, FR2=Padawan, FR3=Knight, FR4=Master, and FR5=Grand Master?

Yeah, not that exactly, but something really close. I think FR 1 was like "Self taught weirdo" FR 2 "Youngling" 3 "Padawan" and so on.

 

It was a neat guide in relation to the time, but the Force thing has changed so much it's no longer really valid.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, hey, this topic again.

 

Considering Starkiller himself complete with beyond-extreme range move object of a star destroyer sized object, can be built for 300 XP or less, I just dont see a "Normal" jedi being 600 or so.

 

You can build Starkiller as he was in his first level of Force unleashed for 150 XP, FR3 Hired Gun/Enforcer/Emergent/Mystic.

Then another 150 xP getting the second FR from Mystic for FR4, Force lightning, and maxxing the Move tree.

 

With FR3 and a perfect roll with a maxxed move tree, you can pull a SIL 7 orbject from beyond extreme range. With FR4 and destiny usage it's actually reasonable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I'd say a classic/prequel Jedi Knight could be done with just the following requirements as the bare minimum:

 

Characteristics: 3 in Willpower, and then a 3 in whichever Characteristic matches up with the LS Form spec that you've taken.

Skills: Lightsaber and Discipline at 3 each, Negotiation and Knowledge: Lore at 2 each, and then Athletics, Coordination, Leadership, Perception, Vigilance, and Knowledge: Education at 1 rank each.

Talents: Parry 2, Reflect 2, Force Rating 1 (giving FR 2)

Powers: Sense (basic plus "defensive" Control Upgrade), Move (basic plus Range Upgrade, Strength Upgrade, and "hurl objects" Control Upgrade), Enhance (basic power + the first two "Force Leap" Control Upgrades)

 

The above gives you a reasonably competent individual that can handle themselves in a variety of situations, with a focus on combat prowess but also being able to settle things peacefully if possible.  Exact XP cost would vary depending on starting career and starting spec (a Niman Disciple will have an easier time with those skill requirements than most).  And they're not an over-powered demigod either that leaves the rest of the party choking on their exhaust as they steamroll through each and every encounter.

 

As I stressed in another thread, the "average" Jedi Knight was not on the same tier as Obi-Wan (who made Master before he was 40, something that's very unusual and probably due to the Clone Wars thinning out the number of eligible Masters) or Anakin (Chosen One of a prophecy).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As has been said, a lot of it is open to interpretation.
 

And it's not as if we see the Jedi Council checking off achievements, giving out merit badges and estimating stat-levels. 
Two padawans with heroic records of service... one who was an excellent student and achieved what the game would consider high ranks in this or that and another that had a knack for getting the most out of lower game ratings and using advantages to her, um, advantage...  both could, in theory, become Jedi Knights*.

* At least at the time of the PT, the Jedi were enamored of their own traditions and devotion to discipline and thus it could be argued that the former would be more favored whereas the latter (who, probably, flipped Destiny points more often) would be seen as more of a "problem child"...  Conversely, the former could be seen as "too Force-reliant" whereas the latter is seen as more a servant of the Force, calling upon it only as needed, rather than attempting to become it's master, 
But that's just storytelling opportunities.



 

Edited by Aluminium Falcon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...FR3 Hired Gun/Enforcer/Emergent/Mystic.

Maybe slightly off topic, but how is 150 XP enough?

What am I doing wrong:

1) Start as Enforcer

2) buy Emergent (+1FR, 20 XP)

3) get +1FR in Emergent tree (75 XP)

4) buy Seer (40 XP)

5) get +1FR in Seer tree (70 XP)

The above results in FR3, and 205 XP spent (20+75+40+70). What am I missing?

After that, with another 150 XP, getting the second +1FR from Seer leaves you with <80 XP, which isn't enough to purchase everything in the Move tree?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...