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Scalding

Knight Level Play - too soon?

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I can see a GM who wants to do the 'Knight level' option actually awarding different amounts of xp to each player depending on concept intent and build option, with a gentlebeing's agreement to stick to a theme for potentially more xp.

 

 

I would not like to see this - unless you mean those getting less would get extra later, it's just going to breed resentment over preferential treatment. I'm certainly okay with varying it by group - or perhaps, two levels. Say 'advanced' for +150 and Knight for +300?

 

 

Yeah I think he's saying something like Qui-gon starts with +250, Obi-wan starts with +150, and Orphan Annie starts with +LOL.

 

Which I think would work if the players could handle it. From a "general public consumption" perspective though, the players couldn't handle it...

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It's not about XP at all.

 

If I was running a Jedi Order campaign I wouldn't have the Council assign a Knight title until the character had achieved a minimum level of skills in a broad set of areas.  It's not about XP, it's about capability.  A Knight is expected to represent the Order, negotiate deals, defer conflict, and keep the peace.  They aren't just some dolt who can swing a lightsaber.

 

Off the top of my head, a bare minimum might be:

 

FR3 or better

Discipline:  YYG or better

Knowledge (Education):  YYG or better

3 other Knowledge skills:  YGG or better

Negotiation or Charm:  YYG or better, with at least one Nobody's Fool or Kill with Kindness Talent

At least one rank in Athletics, Cool, Coordination, Brawl, Melee, Resilience, Streetwise, Computers, Mechanics, either Piloting, either Ranged, and Vigilance

Lightsaber YYG or better

At least two 15XP Talents in a form tree

+4 Toughness

+3 Grit

 

So, whatever that costs...

 

Yeah, that looks like WAY too much for our murder hobos to assemble. I see that's kind of your intent - but the feeling that I got from the Jedi Order under the Old Republic was that folks had various areas they specialized in. Were I to approach it that way, I wouldn't make them have quite the list of skills - say YYG in Discipline and Lightsaber, and 1 rank in either life sciences (Survival, Resilience, Knowledge: Xenology), mechanical sciences (Repair, Computer Use, Knowledge: Education), culture sciences (Diplomacy, Negotiate, Knowledge: Core Worlds) or wander sciences (Perception, Pilot: Space, Knowledge: Outer Rim).

 

In EU they talk occasionally about the 'knight trials'; the way I would likely approach it is to instead wait for a plot-appropriate moment - have a breakout session for that character, work out a few challenges - one almost puzzle-like, one an interaction scene with several checks, and one be combat-based (but full points added for unique solutions). Passing all three would be where I'd bestow the 'knight' title on the character, and let them build their own lightsaber (assuming this is from regular start, not Knight level).

 

To make it far, I'd also want to do something for the muggles (assuming it was only one jedi; multiple jedi, multiple trials) to let them feel unique and accomplished, as if they'd reached the end of a chapter and get to start a new one.

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Lieutenant Gratuitous, Droid Hired Gun/Bodyguard/Aggressor/Ataru Striker/

175 starting XP, +20 for 50 morality, +150 for knight level = 345 XP

 

2 Brawn, 2 Will (40 XP)

(bodyguard)

Durable (5)

Barrage (10)

Hardheaded (10)

Defensive Stance (15)

Defensive Stance (20)

Hard Headed (20)

Improved Hard Headed (25)

(=105)

(Aggressor +30)

Intimidating (5)

Fearsome (10)

Intimidating (10)

(=55)

(Ataru Striker +40)

Parry (5)

Conditioned (5)

Dodge (10)

Quick Strike (15)

Dodge (20)

(=95)

Parry (25)

 

50 points of skills, priority on Discipline to trigger Improved Hard Headed.

1 free rank in discipline (Hired gun)

10 for rank 2

15 for rank 3

20 for rank 4

 

5 points for a point of Lightsaber

Hired Gun: Free Athletics, Resiliance, Vigilance, Brawl, and Pilot Planetary

Bodyguard: Gunnery, Perception, Pilot Planetary.

 

=345 XP

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I can see a GM who wants to do the 'Knight level' option actually awarding different amounts of xp to each player depending on concept intent and build option, with a gentlebeing's agreement to stick to a theme for potentially more xp.

 

 

I would not like to see this - unless you mean those getting less would get extra later, it's just going to breed resentment over preferential treatment. I'm certainly okay with varying it by group - or perhaps, two levels. Say 'advanced' for +150 and Knight for +300?

 

I don't have issues of resentment at my table.  I generally have rationale for decisions I make as a GM and the folks around my table respect my decisions.

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I don't have issues of resentment at my table.  I generally have rationale for decisions I make as a GM and the folks around my table respect my decisions.

 

 

 

...then can I PLEASE play at your table? I promise it has nothing to do with potential Alphas and everything to do with mature adults being in short supply.

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****, guess I need to lose a rank of Intimidating from Aggressor.

 

There's plenty of room to expand this character- really, if I drop Agressor entrely I can broaden his skills pretty well. But going for a "Baby Grievous" with 4 training sablers just feels hilarius.

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What is "canon" has to do with emotional maturity and stability, nothing with "power" or xp. You probably need the morality paragon first and then maybe 2 our of 3 trees filled to represent having assimilated the teachings.

 

Also remember that when people think "Knight" they think about the "heroes" of the stories, not the random Jedi that gets his ass kicked by non named evil dude in the background.

 

I would tend to see it as a roleplay thing more than anything.

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I don't have issues of resentment at my table.  I generally have rationale for decisions I make as a GM and the folks around my table respect my decisions.

 

 

 

...then can I PLEASE play at your table? I promise it has nothing to do with potential Alphas and everything to do with mature adults being in short supply.

 

I read some of these horror stories people post and just shake my head.  Everyone at my table is into the role playing and the swashbuckling and so on.  They don't want things to be gray, the world we live in is gray, they want things 4 color and over the top.  So that's how we run things, they know I use fiat where appropriate and there is a reason.  They know it's more about concept and fun than number crunching.  

 

My different levels of xp awarded is to get characters performing well compared to each other.  That's going to take more or less depending on build.  It also has to do with how I plan on running the Beta test.

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Were I to approach it that way, I wouldn't make them have quite the list of skills - say YYG in Discipline and Lightsaber, and 1 rank in either life sciences (Survival, Resilience, Knowledge: Xenology), mechanical sciences (Repair, Computer Use, Knowledge: Education), culture sciences (Diplomacy, Negotiate, Knowledge: Core Worlds) or wander sciences (Perception, Pilot: Space, Knowledge: Outer Rim).

 

I like that category breakdown, good flavour, I'd certainly let a player approach it that way.  But I'd require at least one rank in each category, and several skill ranks in the main chosen category.  Allowing 1 rank in Perception OR Pilot OR Knowledge (Outer Rim) for a character's chosen specialty seems a bit thin.

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Were I to approach it that way, I wouldn't make them have quite the list of skills - say YYG in Discipline and Lightsaber, and 1 rank in either life sciences (Survival, Resilience, Knowledge: Xenology), mechanical sciences (Repair, Computer Use, Knowledge: Education), culture sciences (Diplomacy, Negotiate, Knowledge: Core Worlds) or wander sciences (Perception, Pilot: Space, Knowledge: Outer Rim).

 

I like that category breakdown, good flavour, I'd certainly let a player approach it that way.  But I'd require at least one rank in each category, and several skill ranks in the main chosen category.  Allowing 1 rank in Perception OR Pilot OR Knowledge (Outer Rim) for a character's chosen specialty seems a bit thin.

 

 

Whups. I meant one in each of the three depending where their focus was; sorry it wasn't clearer. For the hurdle you're looking for, perhaps YYG in the three and 1 rank in a skill from each of the other 'fields'. They did certainly try to get the jedi a broad swath of knowledge, and then alternated sending them where they were strongest/ weaker to round them thoroughly.

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One minor point, Rakaydos: For 50 Morality, you get +10 XP, not +20 XP.

 

-EF

And one major point: Droid Force User

 

How about a race that can use the Force, and actually using some Force Powers?

Edited by Scalding

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One minor point, Rakaydos: For 50 Morality, you get +10 XP, not +20 XP.

 

-EF

And one major point: Droid Force User

 

How about a race that can use the Force, and actually using some Force Powers?

 

Take a second look: I started with an Edge of Empire carear, and none of the actual talents I bought require force sensitivity.

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One minor point, Rakaydos: For 50 Morality, you get +10 XP, not +20 XP.

 

-EF

And one major point: Droid Force User

 

How about a race that can use the Force, and actually using some Force Powers?

 

Take a second look: I started with an Edge of Empire carear, and none of the actual talents I bought require force sensitivity.

 

Then you suggest that a non-Force Sensitive can take a Specialization from a Force Sensitive career that has Force-Sensitive required Talents.  Your argument is that you did not buy any actual Force-Sensitive requiring Talents, so such a build should be OK.  I am not sure if I am convinced of that.

 

Either way, I find the excercise a bit beside the point.  Try it with a Force-Sensitive character.  Similarly to Donovan's thread about there being too many credits in a Knight-Level start for non-lightsaber using characters, there is a point that needs to be made about Force Users vs. Non-Force Users.

 

I think the correct solution is to determine when a character - Force Sensitive or not - might be expected, on average, to have 10,000 credits-equivalent.  From this we math out how much XP it is expected, for an average character, to have at that point.  We can then confidently call that point Knight-level.

 

This is difficult, because probably no one keeps good statistics on this, and we're looking at credit-equivalant value per character, not per group.

 

A group will net several items in loot and rewards per play session, and would divide that among the characters.  My gut feel for starting characters would be several items about the range blaster pistol to blaster rifle, probably 1 per character.  Initially these would be beneficial, though later they would be sold for a fraction of their statistical value.  We might estimate this at about 50%, give or take, from the rules for trade in the beginning of the items section.  There will also be adventure rewards, which will be a higher value but less frequent.

 

A Blaster Carbine seems to me to be about an average item in that range, more or less.  Initially that means about 850cr/character/session.  As the sessions continue, players will build up more and probably better equipment, but will be selling off older and lesser equipment.  I feel therefore that this rate of reward will continue for some time, until the group as a whole moves on to bigger things with better rewards.  I don't know when that happens, but for the sake of discussion let's agree that it will happen after the 10,000 cr/character goal is reached.

 

At that rate it's about 12 game sessions.  According to the guidelines on p. 218, about 20 XP per session is a "Moderate" rate, plus rewards for completing goals, roleplaying, etc.  Let's assume that XP rewards and Credit rewards happen at a similar ratio as the session rewards, so that they balance out of the equation.

 

In that case, Knight Level should be 240 XP.  This would make those characters balanced, whether Force Using or not, with characters that were built in the standard manner and gained XP and equipment in the old fashioned way.

 

I feel that this is still a moderately low amount, but much better than 150 XP, and more balanced overall.

 

Again, I want to stress that I'm not talking about this for my table.  What I do at my table is irrelevant.  I'm talking about doing what's best with the game, so that future supplements work whether you get to "Knight Level" through play or creation.

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I'm serious, you have to consider all play types, just because its called knight level doesn't mean everyone will be playing a knight, or even be force sensitive at all... Giving XP for just force powers is going to need a nonforce equivalent if the system is going to have some semblance of balance...

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I'm serious, you have to consider all play types, just because its called knight level doesn't mean everyone will be playing a knight, or even be force sensitive at all... Giving XP for just force powers is going to need a nonforce equivalent if the system is going to have some semblance of balance...

 

If they're just using the F&D rules, then yes, they will all be force sensitive. If they're starting from the other books, well, that's not covered in that sidebar, is it? :P

 

On the serious side, I agree that it won't work out with that particular demarcation for non-FS folks. While we could try and put in a limitation on a certain amount of XP going to skills, a certain another amount going to specializations/ talents, then we have a system with several 'if=then' statements. So far FFG hasn't demonstrated many of them that I've seen, where they have separate conditions based on several triggers.

 

I do feel that the 'advanced' characters, regardless of name, are going to be a little tricky to get 'right'; we'll just have to see what future updates hold, or if they're happy with how it performs.

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+150 XP is enough for a well trained padowan with good stats, like Ep 1 obiwan, or a knight with poor stats, like Epi 1 Quigon.

 

Dont ask what Binks spent his build points on... probably a rank or two in every non-knowlege skill, given how often he fails with a triumph.

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