Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Alderaan Crumbs

Are Jedi making us expect too much?

Recommended Posts

On the other hand, it's just as canon that war experience and a decade of augmented training prior to that < a youngling Initiate during Order 66. :P Though at least what you describe is pretty much the why of the clone army in the first place.

 

P.S. I just had the vision of Emperor Palpatine giving his Declaration of a New Order speech from a Venator with a "Mission Accomplished" banner in the holofeed background...

Huh, I always saw Palpatine as more "Hope and Change" kind of guy. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm setting up a play by post in the CloneWars, with 500 XP and 40,000c for "just graduated from Padowan to full knight" characters.

So far, the sheets I've got are for a FR1 Shi-cho Klight who filled the ENTIRE tree and rolled over to Sorensu Defender... A FR3 Healer/Sage/Nimian force mage, and interest in a twin shoto saber swinger, and an Artisan/Outlaw Tech tinkerer type.

...We've also got a hired gun Heavy/Gageteer merc who's coming along, who's armor can practically soak a breach weapon already.

To be fair... I wanted to do a Healer/Sage/Doctor... but the other guy beat me to the post. So I'll do a defensive Dual Shoto wielder/Force User instead.

And the Bounty Hunter looks sick... he's the one I'm worried about. Dude is gonna be deadly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Huh, I always saw Palpatine as more "Hope and Change" kind of guy. ;)

*coughPellaeoncough*

 

Though at least all the Jedi survivors in the EU/Legends lore, the explanation was that Palpatine had decided to declare victory in breaking the Order, which still held true insofar as the old canon policy and even the current canon policy (Rebels is just as canon as the movies but may also not directly contradict the movies' events).

Edited by Chortles

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was thinking an Aggressor/Enforcer could stop fights before they even happen! One thing I love about this game is that the options are great for players and they can build an amazing amount of cool characters. At the same time GMs usr the same tools but don't have to "follow the rules" when building NPCs and can just go with what they want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Jedi Ronin,

I think the XP cost is fair, because I'm getting plenty of other stuff from buying Force Emergent, such as being able to boost my Force Rating to 2 as well as useful talents like Uncanny Reactions/Senses, Toughened, Grit, Sense Danger, and Touch of Fate as well as cheaper access to Balance (20 XP vs 25 XP), and picking up Discipline as a career skill for only 5 XP instead of having to either buy yet another non-career spec or choke down the non-career cost (first additional rank of Discipline after buying Insight already pays for the talent, and further ranks at the career rate further justify the cost of Insight), things that Valin would not have if I'd skilled Emergent and gone straight into Ataru Striker.  And granted, I could have gotten there even faster if I didn't sink about 100+ XP into various Force powers (Enhance, Sense, and Move with a quick dip into Foresee).

 

Valin took a longer road to get there than some, but the journey was worth it.  He's starting to get competent, and I'm sure by the time I've hit the "earned 500 XP" benchmark, he'll truly be a force to reckon with.  Of course, the drawback is that I need that much XP, where the other players are forces to be reckoned with (especially the Wookiee Commando with his 4 Brawn, 3 Agility, and truckload of Commando talents, and 3 ranks each in Melee and Ranged: Heavy) and will likely continue to grow in their badassery.  But again, for me the trip for Valin has been worth it.  Others may not feel that way, but then I've always enjoyed having a character grow into their own rather than start out playing someone on par with Vader's Secret Princess.

 

I don't doubt you got valuable talents out of using multiple specs but I was wondering - more in general than just specifically to Jedi or Valin - if the XP cost of using multiple specs is too steep.  I would guess it's designed to prevent super-builds that hop from spec to spec picking up the best pieces but the XP cost seems unneccessarily steep.  60XP sunk into specs just seems too much especially, as you point out, your character hasn't gotten the same benefit as other characters in the group for the same XP expenditure.

 

I wouldn't say that I've not gotten the same benefit per se, more that while the majority of the group is fairly specialized and not so great outside of their areas of expertise, my character was built and developed with the notion of versatility.  Valin's a decent combatant (even before he got a lightsaber), does pretty well in most social situations (rank in Charm and a talent to remove setback dice from Deception checks), and can use the Force to do stuff the others can't do.  The next closest character in terms of versatility is the Sullustan Explorer/Fringer, who's decided to start banking XP in anticipation of Stay on Target's Rigger spec.  The Wookiee Commando is deadly in combat... but completely useless in pretty much any other situation beyond providing a skill rank in Medicine to our Mirialan Saboteur (Intellect 4 after Dedication).  Said Saboteur is an ace in her areas of expertise (explosions, and by extension doing repairs) with some combat prowess and sneaky skills (Stealth and Skulduggery) plus a rank of Deception for fast-talk and quick cover stories.

 

Frankly, I could have made Valin a lot more powerful by being much more focused, and the GM gave me the option of completely rebuilding Valin using just FaD material.  And while I did switch some things around, in the end it wouldn't have been the same character that I really enjoy playing had I done the 100% rebuild.

 

Then again, I'm a long-time veteran of the D6 system, where Force users were much the same in that they started off small.  So far FFG looks to have avoided the major pitfall of D6 in that Force users started off small and then suddenly became super-powerful without much middle ground in between.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think it is absolutely bloody nuts that someone would show up to a game every week in the hope that after a year or two it will become fun.

Crikey Nora guys, if you are interested in is daydreaming about kewl powerz there are *better ways*

Not only do you not play the game but you also don't seem to read what people post here.

Your issues with the game only exist in your mind. You can do everything you want without waiting two years if you find the players willing to play the game your way. No House Rules required and fully supported by the core rules.

Posting the same things using different words and trying to use video game trailers or cartoon scenes to strengthen your point is.... accomplishing what??? I wanted to believe you might just be misunderstood but it's getting to be impossible to believe that you really aren't just trolling.

Edited by PrettyHaley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can play Jedi or just about any Force-user in any setting. 

Erik could play his high level uberJedi. 

 

To be honest, the canon movie setting feels like it suits F&D the least, in some ways... It's very easy to extrapolate the rules to fit other eras or even other settings. Want Clone Wars or Old Republic or New Jedi Order? Easy to do. 

 

If you want to be a full 'jedi' or whatever it's just a case of  starting with more XP - how much depends on how 'high fantasy' the GM wants her game to be. 

 

But crucially, the rules are also balanced for low-level play and starting Force-users do not overwhelm the muggles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to setting books, though I hope they won't slug us with more core rule books like they did with the WH40K stuff. The game could easily carry beyond the splat books, books on the Old Republic (maybe even a SWtOR book), New Republic (probably not until we see ep 7-9) and with more movies that are not centred on the Skywalker clan the sky is the limited...

 

I'm looking forward to years of SW gaming :P.

 

PS

 

Maelora, you anywhere near London and if so looking for an extra player? I just transplanted back and I'm having trouble finding a group :( 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

Jedi Ronin,

I think the XP cost is fair, because I'm getting plenty of other stuff from buying Force Emergent, such as being able to boost my Force Rating to 2 as well as useful talents like Uncanny Reactions/Senses, Toughened, Grit, Sense Danger, and Touch of Fate as well as cheaper access to Balance (20 XP vs 25 XP), and picking up Discipline as a career skill for only 5 XP instead of having to either buy yet another non-career spec or choke down the non-career cost (first additional rank of Discipline after buying Insight already pays for the talent, and further ranks at the career rate further justify the cost of Insight), things that Valin would not have if I'd skilled Emergent and gone straight into Ataru Striker.  And granted, I could have gotten there even faster if I didn't sink about 100+ XP into various Force powers (Enhance, Sense, and Move with a quick dip into Foresee).

 

Valin took a longer road to get there than some, but the journey was worth it.  He's starting to get competent, and I'm sure by the time I've hit the "earned 500 XP" benchmark, he'll truly be a force to reckon with.  Of course, the drawback is that I need that much XP, where the other players are forces to be reckoned with (especially the Wookiee Commando with his 4 Brawn, 3 Agility, and truckload of Commando talents, and 3 ranks each in Melee and Ranged: Heavy) and will likely continue to grow in their badassery.  But again, for me the trip for Valin has been worth it.  Others may not feel that way, but then I've always enjoyed having a character grow into their own rather than start out playing someone on par with Vader's Secret Princess.

 

I don't doubt you got valuable talents out of using multiple specs but I was wondering - more in general than just specifically to Jedi or Valin - if the XP cost of using multiple specs is too steep.  I would guess it's designed to prevent super-builds that hop from spec to spec picking up the best pieces but the XP cost seems unneccessarily steep.  60XP sunk into specs just seems too much especially, as you point out, your character hasn't gotten the same benefit as other characters in the group for the same XP expenditure.

 

I wouldn't say that I've not gotten the same benefit per se, more that while the majority of the group is fairly specialized and not so great outside of their areas of expertise, my character was built and developed with the notion of versatility.  Valin's a decent combatant (even before he got a lightsaber), does pretty well in most social situations (rank in Charm and a talent to remove setback dice from Deception checks), and can use the Force to do stuff the others can't do.  The next closest character in terms of versatility is the Sullustan Explorer/Fringer, who's decided to start banking XP in anticipation of Stay on Target's Rigger spec.  The Wookiee Commando is deadly in combat... but completely useless in pretty much any other situation beyond providing a skill rank in Medicine to our Mirialan Saboteur (Intellect 4 after Dedication).  Said Saboteur is an ace in her areas of expertise (explosions, and by extension doing repairs) with some combat prowess and sneaky skills (Stealth and Skulduggery) plus a rank of Deception for fast-talk and quick cover stories.

 

Frankly, I could have made Valin a lot more powerful by being much more focused, and the GM gave me the option of completely rebuilding Valin using just FaD material.  And while I did switch some things around, in the end it wouldn't have been the same character that I really enjoy playing had I done the 100% rebuild.

 

Then again, I'm a long-time veteran of the D6 system, where Force users were much the same in that they started off small.  So far FFG looks to have avoided the major pitfall of D6 in that Force users started off small and then suddenly became super-powerful without much middle ground in between.

 

 

I'm glad you can create the character you want and are enjoying it.

 

So you do feel that the 60XP sunk into just buying the opportunity for being more versatile is a good balancing cost?

This is a completely moot question I guess.  This particular game mechanic is part of the core rules and is not going to change...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to setting books, though I hope they won't slug us with more core rule books like they did with the WH40K stuff. The game could easily carry beyond the splat books, books on the Old Republic (maybe even a SWtOR book), New Republic (probably not until we see ep 7-9) and with more movies that are not centred on the Skywalker clan the sky is the limited...

 

I'm looking forward to years of SW gaming :P.

 

PS

 

Maelora, you anywhere near London and if so looking for an extra player? I just transplanted back and I'm having trouble finding a group :(

 

I'd like that as well.  Though we haven't seen the other "core" lines jump away from the Rebellion Era.

 

Though F&D was designed with more than just the Rebellion era in mind.  Listen to the latest order 66 podcast with lead designer Sam Stewart.

The careers and gear and rules support Jedi in any era.  Even the species selection in F&D was heavily influenced by the various species who were Jedi Masters in the prequel films.

 

Certainly more material could be produced for more eras but I think the 3 core books allow you to run a game in any era you want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maelora, you anywhere near London and if so looking for an extra player? I just transplanted back and I'm having trouble finding a group :(

 

I'm from Cardiff, though I try to get down to the Big Smoke once or twice a year. London always gives me a buzz; the pace of life is different there.  

 

And I totally agree that the three Core Books let you set a game in any era.   I wouldn't mind eventually seeing books for other eras though.  (Please, please gods, let FFG retain the SW licence!) Stuff from any era gets freely incorporated into our homebrew game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you do feel that the 60XP sunk into just buying the opportunity for being more versatile is a good balancing cost?

Realizing two things 1) I'm not Dono, 2) I hate classes in general...

I don't. In the game that is wrapping (tomorrow or next week) I'm the "versatile" guy in our group (except I skipped combat ability completely). I sunk 80EXP into 3 additional specs. Now since those specs were Mechanic, Slicer, and Droid Wrangler (homebrew), you might say "But EvilE, those are still about two skills!" (Mechanics and Computers). True... but it gave me 5 more Career skills which I sunk points into.

And if it was only those skills... it still would have been worth it (80EXP instead of 125EXP to buy them to 5's, which actually, I never did get around too). But Mechanic and Slicer brought a couple of Talents that boosted my "Fix Things" shtick and Droid Wrangler would have eventually made up for my uselessness in combat, in the "My Droid Minions" manner.

I just built a 500EXP Seer/Makashi Duelist. If I wasn't bottlenecked by the cost to pick stuff up out of Career or Spec... she'd be a lot more versatile and lot less streamlined. But after finishing the first build (which I liked) she wasn't in the same "league" power wise as the other characters. So I trimmed some fat, focused a bit, and have brought her "in line" with them power wise. I don't "like" this version as much, but she'll be more competent in her core area, being a Seer/Makashi Duelist...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just built a 500EXP Seer/Makashi Duelist. If I wasn't bottlenecked by the cost to pick stuff up out of Career or Spec... she'd be a lot more versatile and lot less streamlined. But after finishing the first build (which I liked) she wasn't in the same "league" power wise as the other characters. So I trimmed some fat, focused a bit, and have brought her "in line" with them power wise. I don't "like" this version as much, but she'll be more competent in her core area, being a Seer/Makashi Duelist...

 

What do you mean she wasn't in the same league power wise? i think that a 500 xp character, even with 2 specs should be quite a powerhouse, especially in melee since makashi is all about duel.

IN my opinion it is an inevitable balancing mechanic that a versatile character will be less "powerful" than an equal xp focused character, regardless of force rating. But the versatile charctater will get more  occasion to shine and contribute. Of course if the party is totally combat focused havning a big power difference is a problem...unless you get creative and exploit different tactics.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just built a 500EXP Seer/Makashi Duelist. If I wasn't bottlenecked by the cost to pick stuff up out of Career or Spec... she'd be a lot more versatile and lot less streamlined. But after finishing the first build (which I liked) she wasn't in the same "league" power wise as the other characters. So I trimmed some fat, focused a bit, and have brought her "in line" with them power wise. I don't "like" this version as much, but she'll be more competent in her core area, being a Seer/Makashi Duelist...

 

Isn't it a good thing that characters that choose to spread themselves out more can't reach the same "cap" of power that one-trick ponies can in their core skills? Versatility is its own type of power after all. 

 

I was tempted to go on a rant about people munchkining your no career system, but I'm willing to bet you've heard it before.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What do you mean she wasn't in the same league power wise?

Just that. I had only one dice pool that was on par with that sort of power level, Lightsaber at 3Y1G.

Everything else was so far below there'd be no way to roll at what I expect we'd be seeing. 1/3 of my dice pools were 1Y1G, 1/3 1Y2G, and the remaining were pretty much 2G. I had 4 skills that weren't that, 2 at 2Y, 1 at 2Y1G and Lightsaber.

Now, I agree, I was spread thin. That's what being versatile means. I also had only 1 Force power (Sense) with 20 EXP in it and a Force Rating of 1.

Not in the same league.

 

i think that a 500 xp character, even with 2 specs should be quite a powerhouse, especially in melee since makashi is all about duel.

Refocused and redefined and down to 2 Specs, yes that's exactly where the character is at now. I had 4 Specs before and was far more spread thin.

 

IN my opinion it is an inevitable balancing mechanic that a versatile character will be less "powerful" than an equal xp focused character, regardless of force rating. But the versatile charctater will get more  occasion to shine and contribute.

It wasn't so much "less powerful" as... I was basically 3 starting level characters wrapped up in one. Face, Stealth/Thief, and Duelist. Perhaps trying to fill three roles is too much for the system. The character is down to 1 role, Seer, and I still think I'll be a bit under performing* (I'm not seeing Duelist as her role, the build is now all about defense, very little offense).

* But then... that's kinda what Foresee and Sense are about. Maybe not "underperforming" but "subtle" and harder to pin down as a "strength area".

The character I'm playing in the soon to wrap game (the Jawa Techie) fills 2 roles and does fine in those roles, Mechanic and Thief, he also is "second" banana in the Face role (Deceptiony). Outside of those roles he's abysmal (okay, he's also the Doctor, but that's purely by stint of spending EXP on one skill, I didn't pick up a Spec to actually be "good" at it). In fact I kinda out Thief our Smuggler who has the Thief Spec (in that character's defense, he immediately starting filling out the Pilot role with skill choices and is only marginally behind me, marginally).

Personally I think the buy in to other Career skills is too high. I'm kinda okay with the Talent Trees being a reach, though personally I do go back and forth on that.

 

 

I was tempted to go on a rant about people munchkining your no career system, but I'm willing to bet you've heard it before.

Rant away. My response: Wookie Marauder/Doctor. Tell me how the 30EXP buy in to Doctor is such a terrible gateway and will stop this pure munchkin combat machine and how having Careers and Specs is even slowing it down.

Come on. Explain it to me.

Edited by evileeyore

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your example of how your character was originally weak sounds like an excellent character to me. I think the style of our campaigns must differ greatly.

 

I've even built a Marauder/Doctor (in RAW, both specs in character creation w/no bonus xp) and found it plenty powerful and enjoyable.

 

As for ranting: Eh, it sounds to me like no one in your group is munchkining it up with your rules.

 

I'm more worried about people grabbing a bunch of 5 xp and 10 xp talents from every tree to save on purchasing unranked talents deeper in trees and stack up the cheapest toughness and grit available. If your group doesn't have that problem and you have more fun without the restrictions, more power to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

... I had only one dice pool that was on par with that sort of power level, Lightsaber at 3Y1G....

 

 

One of my players had that for his Ranged Light after spending 15xp. I suspect the difference comes into play in the skills and talents you have on your character to support you ability to deliver that 3Y1G pool into the scum and villany you fight. I think on a comparative basis where you would do well is you will have a degree of avoidance that he doesn't have.

 

Which gets me to thinking in a high XP game would it be preferable to ramp up? So the GM starts the campaign and gives everyone 150xp. After the first game the session reward would be 150xp, then 100xp, 100xp again, then maybe a catchup of 30-50xp for the xp earned playing those 4 weeks? This way players get to absorb the rules for their various talents and abilities.

 

This may also change the way the players spend their XP as the GM doesn't have to tell them they are in a 500XP game initially.

 

I'm more worried about people grabbing a bunch of 5 xp and 10 xp talents from every tree to save on purchasing unranked talents deeper in trees and stack up the cheapest toughness and grit available. If your group doesn't have that problem and you have more fun without the restrictions, more power to you.

 

OK Maybe it takes 3 hits to finish off the player rather than 2, but a character that has developed into the 15-25 point talent will gain buffs and abilities to adjust the dice pool or just avoid the damage. Even if you stay within your career and buy the specialisation for cheep you are still using a lot of points for specialisations that are only giving you the smallest of advatages.

 

Munchkin players are responding to their games meta, if you are having trouble it may not be the player at fault. If you are running an overabundance of combat encounters the the issue with you players not taking social skills isn't entirely their fault. Similarly if you are running little combat and significant social encounters then your players will swing in an entirely different way.

 

The Marauder/Doctor doesn't sound that bad, you paid for the career so lost XP that would otherwise have been spent on an attribute. Perhaps you get a short term advantage but over the long haul that attribute that is now 2 rather than 3 will have far more effect on things. The cool thing about this game is every choice you make comes at the cost of another choice you could have made and neither choice is inherantly better than the other.

Edited by Amanal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've even built a Marauder/Doctor (in RAW, both specs in character creation w/no bonus xp) and found it plenty powerful and enjoyable.

That's my point, they are potent. Perhaps too potent, as many here have claimed (I've only kitbashed the numbers, I haven't seen one in play).

 

As for ranting: Eh, it sounds to me like no one in your group is munchkining it up with your rules.

I'm not worried about my two guys at all.

Which after speaking to one last night about what he thought about building (while playing LtR LCG) I think I know hwy I'm so against the way Careers and Specs are set up in this game (versus my normal general dislike for CLasses).

I'm only going to have two players. I'm not throwing an NPC on the team to carry water for them. They have to pull all the weight (though they mght start with a rival level Astromech for light ship repairs and such).

They have to cover multiple roles and do so well, not as "second banana" capacity.

I also joked that if he buys "Exhuast Port" (he's going to mirror the Ace Pilot Tree, kinda) that I will give him a Capital ship to fight against (they are starting in a Firespray). He responded:

"Then I think I'll get the Party Girls and Alcohol Talent first..."

 

 

I'm more worried about people grabbing a bunch of 5 xp and 10 xp talents from every tree to save on purchasing unranked talents deeper in trees and stack up the cheapest toughness and grit available. If your group doesn't have that problem and you have more fun without the restrictions, more power to you.

Well, first this is kinda (WEP) what the "Grit" Talent purchases will look like:

Grit: Rank 1 5EXP, Rank 2 10EXP, Rank 3 10EXP, Rank 4 15EXp, Rank 5 15EXp, Rank 6 20EXP, every thereafter costs 20.

Toughened will look the same. Does this mean a "Doctor" in my game could grab a few "cheaper" Tougheneds than one normally could? Sure, but I'm not really worreid about it.

Does it mean the Wookie Maruader (which noramlly has low Strain Threshold as it's weakness) could pretty easily shore up it's Strain Threshold? Sure, but agian, not worried. Also said Maruader will now be spending outside the tight focus of "Murder Machine" that the Maruader normally is.

Also, I'm completely tossing Tres out (accept as mentioned the Forms and Force Powers which fit very well with my concept).

I just realized I'm trying to rebuild Legend of the 5 Rings using FFG SW. I think that explains where I'm coming from entirely.

 

 

Which gets me to thinking in a high XP game would it be preferable to ramp up? So the GM starts the campaign and gives everyone 150xp. After the first game the session reward would be 150xp, then 100xp, 100xp again, then maybe a catchup of 30-50xp for the xp earned playing those 4 weeks? This way players get to absorb the rules for their various talents and abilities.

 

This may also change the way the players spend their XP as the GM doesn't have to tell them they are in a 500XP game initially.

No doubt it will.

When I first was making the 500EXP Seeress, I was building it in steps, 50EXP at a time as a "And here she's kidnapped by Hutts and forced to work as a mind reader... hmmm, what skills and Talents would I pick up playing through that", which is why I ended up a very unfocused.

WHen I tossed that aside and looked instead at "where do I want to end up" I focused in more directly and "twisted the narrative" to fit the vision.

 

The Marauder/Doctor doesn't sound that bad, you paid for the career so lost XP that would otherwise have been spent on an attribute.

In this particular instance/example it's the percentage of buy in cost versus expected end EXP total.

Is the game only getting to about 100EXP? Then 30 is an outrageous sum and no one will consider leaving a Career or even probably getting a second in Career Spec. 200EXP? A second (or third) in Career Spec is okay (I can atest to that), the W M/D won't sweat the buy in. 300EXP? That 30 wasn't even a bump in the road and the Murder Machine is about done with the Maruader Tree (or just capped it with a Signature) and is looking for the next Munchy Tree to add... of course everyone else is equally capping their primary Specs and are likely as munchy in their own laser-like focused Specs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...