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Are Jedi making us expect too much?

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Most of the Characters in the movies or tv series are freaking Jedi Masters and a lot of them are members of the Jedi Council, which consisted of the Masters with the strongest connection to the force (in theory, politics aside). Aspiring to being as powerful as those  would be like a first year college student wanting to be part of the Nobel Prize committee. You can, but it takes a lot of time and effort.

Yes, I partly started EotE because I was waiting to play someone as powerful as Starkiller, but that wouldn't be fun. okay, lots of fun, but not for long. power progression is always the most fun.

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Do you think the XP cost sunk into just getting access to various Specializations is too much?

60 XP with your build just to access talents and Skills?

 

i think it was only 40XP. It was only the third spec.

 

 

Wouldn't it be 20XP for Emergent (non-career universal spec) then 40XP for Ataru Striker?

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Do you think the XP cost sunk into just getting access to various Specializations is too much?

60 XP with your build just to access talents and Skills?

i think it was only 40XP. It was only the third spec.

 

Wouldn't it be 20XP for Emergent (non-career universal spec) then 40XP for Ataru Striker?

Yes it would. Didn't realize you were accounting for both specs. My mistake.

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So I am thinking 3 force rating is probably a good place to be. You have a die you can commit to sense and 2 die to generate force pips for powers.

 

3 force dice will usually take 170 to 180 XP- well within the limits of a Human Knight (75xp down a tree for force rating, than 20/30 XP for a second tree, and 75 down the next.)

 

A Seer can get FR2 for 60, but FR3 will cost another 90- alternatively, he can get FR2 for 70 (a different way through his tree), and get FR 3 for another 70  (a 10XP cheaper route)

 

A Sage can get FR 2 for 70, and FR3 for 65 more.

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Considering the discussion in the "Knight-Level play too soon" thread about Obi-Wan in Epi 1 and 2 and the interesting points raised by Ghostofman, it seems that even FR2 could be a quite powerful thing, as  a well planned  power tree lets you eploit the force pips you obtain to the max. So i die to commit and 1 to fuel the powers could be quite powerful

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But we're not playing Jedi, there are only two of those during this setting, Luke and Yoda. Our characters can want to be Jedi, hunt for Jedi secrets scattered throughout the Galaxy, we're Jedi fanboys. Also a force user who doesn't believe in the Force makes for a great character IMO.

 

Yes we are playing Jedi if that is what we want to do. Luke and Yoda are just two examples of Jedi. If in your game you want them to be the only Jedi that is wonderful, but others may want their characters to be the last Jedi.

 

Of course you can, it's a role-playing game, but if you want to be canon, and a lot of people do, then Luke and Yoda and the force ghost of Obi-Wan are the last Jedi in the galaxy during the era of the rebellion. The great flanneled one said so, the F&D beta book said so. It's only the now defunct "Legends" that have any other survivors during this time period. Itls also why Marvels new comics focus on the original trilogy crew and not Jedi Masters hiding out in the juntland wastes posing as sand people (a particular favourite of mine when it comes to idiocy, like he and Obi wouldn't have run into each other). Not getting what you want right out of the gate makes for great role-playing, imagine how happy your character is when he passes his trials after months of game time, after finally having found a holocron or Yoda or it might even be post DS2 and Luke is his master, who knows, but he is finally a knight, a protector of the weak and the a guardian of justice... What then? I do think that we expect too much of our Jedi, the ones we follow in the movie is in order: a Master with a very talented apprentice (Qui-Gon and OW), then the chosen one and his master, the aforementioned talent. Then it's two members of the council, one of them the chosen one... Their supporting cast at Yoda and Mace Windu and Darth Sidious, not exactly run of the mill guys. 

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All of this said, please, play the game your way. Just cus we can get argumentative and have "ideas" about what's right. This is at the end of the day about having fun, and as long as you don't have to hurt anyone to have it it's all good. Your fun is as valid as my fun.

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If you listened to the order 66 podcast the xp curve is set up to 'force' F&D characters to invest huge sums of xp to advance to demigod status.  It is possible, but it is an extremely advanced character with hundreds of xp awarded.  That was by design.

 

I tinkered around with Protect/Unleash, and to really get that power reliable and maxed out, you have to be looking at FR5, 4 just won't do it, and FR6 is better.  Giving 500 xp I was able to get it to the point of a high Willpower, Discipline, FR5, and the tree essentially filled out quite a bit.  Even then it's not a 100% trip every feature with every roll of the dice and the character would be good for nothing else.  That was 500 xp.  That is also the extreme example with Protect as the highest FR prereq and most expensive steps.

 

To round that character out and give them more skills and Lightsaber ranked out and you'd be looking at somewhere between 500 and 1000 xp, and that's one power.  Granted additional powers you would invariably excel at, but you still have to buy them.  The point is to get iconic characters where people want them is at least several hundred awarded xp and a very disciplined/consistent advancement plan.

 

I really like the Mastery ideas and the element of the new Force powers where you can't get certain features to even work if you flip a DP and convery pips.  Really pushes the need to raise that FR to insure full utility.

 

Having said that consider muggle characters with several hundred+ xp awarded.  They would be so multi talented and skilled with similar amounts of xp.

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Jedi Ronin,

I think the XP cost is fair, because I'm getting plenty of other stuff from buying Force Emergent, such as being able to boost my Force Rating to 2 as well as useful talents like Uncanny Reactions/Senses, Toughened, Grit, Sense Danger, and Touch of Fate as well as cheaper access to Balance (20 XP vs 25 XP), and picking up Discipline as a career skill for only 5 XP instead of having to either buy yet another non-career spec or choke down the non-career cost (first additional rank of Discipline after buying Insight already pays for the talent, and further ranks at the career rate further justify the cost of Insight), things that Valin would not have if I'd skilled Emergent and gone straight into Ataru Striker.  And granted, I could have gotten there even faster if I didn't sink about 100+ XP into various Force powers (Enhance, Sense, and Move with a quick dip into Foresee).

 

Valin took a longer road to get there than some, but the journey was worth it.  He's starting to get competent, and I'm sure by the time I've hit the "earned 500 XP" benchmark, he'll truly be a force to reckon with.  Of course, the drawback is that I need that much XP, where the other players are forces to be reckoned with (especially the Wookiee Commando with his 4 Brawn, 3 Agility, and truckload of Commando talents, and 3 ranks each in Melee and Ranged: Heavy) and will likely continue to grow in their badassery.  But again, for me the trip for Valin has been worth it.  Others may not feel that way, but then I've always enjoyed having a character grow into their own rather than start out playing someone on par with Vader's Secret Princess.

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Hey, I've no problem with Jedi being more powerful than non-jedi.

 

But that requires a bit of definition. To be meaningfully 'Jedi' requires a meaningful investment of XP in a force-type tree.

Anyone who's dumped 200 XP into any vaguely combatitive tree, force-based or not, should be able to do nasty things to minion type opponents.

 

Equally, a suitably gifted non-force-user should be able to hold their own. Yes, they'll have to do so with shiny wargear and by "cheating" but that's fine.

 

It's much like space marines and non space marines in the 40k RPG lines: you will not beat a space marine in a fair fight (defining 'fair fight' as 'trading shots at medium range with boltguns'). Snipers, traps, disposable minions and specialist weapons, on the other hand, are perfectly accepable.

 

Deflect shot talent? Flamethrower.

Force Jump? Jetpack.

Lightsaber? Cortosis Vambrace.

The Force? Twenty years of combat experience.

 

It reminds me of a quote from a Dan Abnett book, where a witch parries a gunshot from an inquisitor's henchman. He nods, impressed, and calmly asks "how do you do on full auto?"

 

Characters like Boba Fett, Cad Bane, Mandalore, Kir Kanos and General Grievous are not necessarily force wielders but should still be capable of being nemesis-level threats to a 'jedi' party.

Edited by Magnus Grendel

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Jedi Ronin,

I think the XP cost is fair, because I'm getting plenty of other stuff from buying Force Emergent, such as being able to boost my Force Rating to 2 as well as useful talents like Uncanny Reactions/Senses, Toughened, Grit, Sense Danger, and Touch of Fate as well as cheaper access to Balance (20 XP vs 25 XP), and picking up Discipline as a career skill for only 5 XP instead of having to either buy yet another non-career spec or choke down the non-career cost (first additional rank of Discipline after buying Insight already pays for the talent, and further ranks at the career rate further justify the cost of Insight), things that Valin would not have if I'd skilled Emergent and gone straight into Ataru Striker.  And granted, I could have gotten there even faster if I didn't sink about 100+ XP into various Force powers (Enhance, Sense, and Move with a quick dip into Foresee).

 

Valin took a longer road to get there than some, but the journey was worth it.  He's starting to get competent, and I'm sure by the time I've hit the "earned 500 XP" benchmark, he'll truly be a force to reckon with.  Of course, the drawback is that I need that much XP, where the other players are forces to be reckoned with (especially the Wookiee Commando with his 4 Brawn, 3 Agility, and truckload of Commando talents, and 3 ranks each in Melee and Ranged: Heavy) and will likely continue to grow in their badassery.  But again, for me the trip for Valin has been worth it.  Others may not feel that way, but then I've always enjoyed having a character grow into their own rather than start out playing someone on par with Vader's Secret Princess.

 

I don't doubt you got valuable talents out of using multiple specs but I was wondering - more in general than just specifically to Jedi or Valin - if the XP cost of using multiple specs is too steep.  I would guess it's designed to prevent super-builds that hop from spec to spec picking up the best pieces but the XP cost seems unneccessarily steep.  60XP sunk into specs just seems too much especially, as you point out, your character hasn't gotten the same benefit as other characters in the group for the same XP expenditure.

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Characters like Boba Fett, Cad Bane, Mandalore, Kir Kanos and General Grievous are not necessarily force wielders but should still be capable of being nemesis-level threats to a 'jedi' party.

The thing is, if you're trying to frame them as "Nemesis-level threats to a 'Jedi' party", then why aren't they outright Nemeses with all that that implies, such as NPC-exclusive stats such as Adversary?

 

P.S. Star Wars is a setting where it's been purported that the Force > twenty years of combat experience... but of course, that varies by the writer.

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On the other hand, it's just as canon that war experience and a decade of augmented training prior to that < a youngling Initiate during Order 66. :P Though at least what you describe is pretty much the why of the clone army in the first place.

 

P.S. I just had the vision of Emperor Palpatine giving his Declaration of a New Order speech from a Venator with a "Mission Accomplished" banner in the holofeed background...

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It's much like space marines and non space marines in the 40k RPG lines: you will not beat a space marine in a fair fight (defining 'fair fight' as 'trading shots at medium range with boltguns'). Snipers, traps, disposable minions and specialist weapons, on the other hand, are perfectly accepable.

 

Deflect shot talent? Flamethrower.

Force Jump? Jetpack.

Lightsaber? Cortosis Vambrace.

The Force? Twenty years of combat experience.

 

It reminds me of a quote from a Dan Abnett book, where a witch parries a gunshot from an inquisitor's henchman. He nods, impressed, and calmly asks "how do you do on full auto?"

 

Characters like Boba Fett, Cad Bane, Mandalore, Kir Kanos and General Grievous are not necessarily force wielders but should still be capable of being nemesis-level threats to a 'jedi' party.

 

This.

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I think it is absolutely bloody nuts that someone would show up to a game every week in the hope that after a year or two it will become fun.

Crikey Nora guys, if you are interested in is daydreaming about kewl powerz there are *better ways*

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You want your Jedi character to be more powerful than the non-Force characters and you can't find anyone to play that game with? You should play with Erik. You guys could take turns GMing each other's super-duper uberJedi and play out all those power fantasies.

That is most definitely what I don't want and is why it have done very little Star Wars roleplaying. I realize the issue is with me and not with the various systems. I love Star Wars but none of the RPGs have felt like Star Wars to me. It is my expectations.

That said I will probably take another look when F&D CRB is out.

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I'm setting up a play by post in the CloneWars, with 500 XP and 40,000c for "just graduated from Padowan to full knight" characters.

So far, the sheets I've got are for a FR1 Shi-cho Klight who filled the ENTIRE tree and rolled over to Sorensu Defender... A FR3 Healer/Sage/Nimian force mage, and interest in a twin shoto saber swinger, and an Artisan/Outlaw Tech tinkerer type.

...We've also got a hired gun Heavy/Gageteer merc who's coming along, who's armor can practically soak a breach weapon already.

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