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Alderaan Crumbs

Are Jedi making us expect too much?

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It's in your profile settings when you press edit, ignore preferences will appear, then you cut and paste the name.  He isn't about off topic, he's about antagonistic trolling that lends nothing to nothing and its a use violation.

Thanks for that! And the off-topic CoD pushing and lightsaber videos are really all I've seen out of him - I'm fairly new at 'participating' on these forums, and only did sporadic lurking beforehand. Maybe he's just a shill for EA?

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Welp, when you find yourself staring out at a table of players half heartedly picking at characters they are not in to and showing lukewarm enthusiasm for your adventure while casting envious glances at the new Call of Duty game, remember I Told You So. It'll be too late for you. But maybe you can save the next generation.

Luckily I don't suffer any problem with players. How's your group? Oops sorry, *facepalm*, forgot. Have fun with your current FPS, whatever it may be.

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According to the long time residents he's been banned a couple times.  I don't care about videos but when he comes in here and is nothing but "this game sux"  "wherez the good game?" I've had enough of his infantile antagonistic BS.  I just started reporting every violation and I wish everyone else would too.  This forum should be about bandying ideas, clarifying rules, and arguing over house rules, not baiting non sense from someone who hit 14 years of age developmentally and just stopped.

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At 500 XP you could be an admiral or captain with your very own Star Destroyer. (Or since we're good guys, Mon Cal Crusier)

 

You can do a lot of the same stuff with a Star Destroyer that a Jedi can do.

 

Telekinesis- Tractor Beams

Deflect Blasters - Deflector Shields

Jump Around - Fly in Space

Beat up a bunch of mooks - Melt a city

Heal People - Med Bay

Force Lightning - AT AT

 

And well, there are way more Star Destroyers running around than Jedi. Heck, I think a Jedi would be hard pressed to compete with a Corellian Corvette in the terms of 'blowing things up and moving them around with space magic' department.

 

I think part of the balance they're going for is that there's very little the Jedi can do that anyone else with the appropriate technology cannot. There's enough gadgets and hardware floating around to emulate nearly anything Force-like.

Edited by TarlSS

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I have not seen the Beta, but I do not thing that "epicness" and "awesomness" are bound to the system. Sure, some games are build to be more cinematic than other, but at the end, it all comes to group. As I was reminded on this forums, the Golden Rule is no excuse for lazy game design, but it is the main purpose of an RPG to have fun and do crazy things. If it is the moment, you just ignore few rules/rolls (for me it was often falling damage in Dark Heresy).

 

Imagine the Episode I. It all agoes good in your mixed F&D, EotE, AoR game, but then the  Jinns and Kenobis players meet the Darth Maul. As they narrate the combat, the GM upps the volume on awesome soundtrack, things get heated (and other pararell scenes are quite boring, you know, Jar Jars player has no idea what he is doing and Padmé is just going threw shooting gallery). Description of action are getting elaborate, when Anakins (he is a ruleslawyer) player says: "Guys, I am pretty sure you have to roll Acrobatics and Coordination like twice for every Lightsaber attack." The table get silent, GM rolls eyes, but R2s player saves the situation by taking control of the fighter and flying into space, thus giving Anakin something to do. And Duel of Fates continue.

Also, it just came to my mind, we have a canon source (The Clone Wars) stating, that anybody could kill a Jedi with a sniper rifle.We also saw Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan running from rapid firing droidekas. So I guess reflect (deflect?) is not that powerful as it seems to be.

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2P51 Said:

Ace Pilot rolls Techition into itself, at least on a basic level. Princess and Scoundrel can be anything, with the right backround.

 

 

I think this could be achieved by having pure muggle careers and have a talent overlay system.

 

So you can take a pilot who has no force abilities or you can take a pilot and then replace one 5 point talent with this 5 point force talent, replace a 10 point talent with a 10 force point talent and so on. A bit like giving the player 4 stickers to put over any mundane talent tree to give it force talents. You could also make certain choices replace specific abillities, perhaps the last row choice is +1 force rating or +1 attribute increase.

 

This way you could make room for 3 careers that are more mundane, you could add in careers that aren't exactly force users but help out. The people who may have helped the Jedi hide away from the imperials. Also, perhaps, you have some careers for the people that hunted the Jedi but have turned?

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According to the long time residents he's been banned a couple times.  I don't care about videos but when he comes in here and is nothing but "this game sux"  "wherez the good game?" I've had enough of his infantile antagonistic BS.  I just started reporting every violation and I wish everyone else would too.  This forum should be about bandying ideas, clarifying rules, and arguing over house rules, not baiting non sense from someone who hit 14 years of age developmentally and just stopped.

You're assuming he isn't actually a 14-year old...

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I think this could be achieved by having pure muggle careers and have a talent overlay system.

I'm pretty sure that's called Force Sensitive Exile/Emergent.

 

This is the Force book. If you want to play a normal person, play a normal person from Edge/Rebelion, but there's no reason to reprint Smuggler from the EoE core book in F&D, when it's not a force carear.

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Jest because jedi are awesome, doesnt mean muggles cant be awesme too.

 

Build your 500 XP jedi, and I'll build a 500 XP droid assassin.

And that droid is going to murder that Jedi, just due to that fact that the Jedi requires multiple trees for Force powers and Force dice.

Force Users in general are going to be extremely spread out. Just getting to FR3 is going to be a challenge.

 

Let's see...

Knight level starting character

 

Human Consular Sage

Option +10 points (total 120 base, +150 Knight-level0

Pts Item Rank

30 Brawn 3

 0 Agility 2

 0 Intellect 2

30 Cunning 2

 0 Willpower 2

30 Presence 3

 0 Force Rating 1

 0 Astrogation 0 ©

 0 Charm 0 ©

 0 Cool 1 (C,FS)

 0 Discipline 1 (C,FC)

 0 Leadership 0 ©

 0 Negotiation 1 (C, FC)

 0 Knowledge - Education 1 (C,FC)

 0 Knowledge - Lore 1 (C,FS)

10 Lightsaber 1

 0 Morality 50.

10 Influence Force Power

10 Heal Force Power

15 Forsee Force Power with Strength Enhancement. (Get some details!)

Sage Tree

5 Kill with Kindness

10 Researcher 1

15 Smooth Talker 1

20 Grit 1

20 Force rating 2 (70 in to tree)

20 Pre-emptive avoidance

20 knowledge specialization 2

25 Force Rating 3 (135 in to tree)

Force rating 3, 3 powers, a lightsaber, and a few useful but low skills. Not hard at all to get FR 2. Be a bit harder to get FR 3 with other disciplines, but a Consular Sage can get there as a starting Knight-level character.

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I think this could be achieved by having pure muggle careers and have a talent overlay system.

I'm pretty sure that's called Force Sensitive Exile/Emergent.

 

This is the Force book. If you want to play a normal person, play a normal person from Edge/Rebelion, but there's no reason to reprint Smuggler from the EoE core book in F&D, when it's not a force carear.

 

 

Given that each book is supposed to be able to be played by itself how do I use a character from another book if I don't have that book? AoR contained repeat careers why shouldn't F&D?

Edited by Amanal

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But there aren't any repeat careers in Age of Rebellion, only a couple specializations with in them.  The careers themselves are all tailored to backgrounds serving the Rebel Alliance, and the careers in other books are best suited to characters fitting their backgrounds.

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You know I'm surprised at how many contentious issues that actually proved correct in the long run.

 

I was sceptical, but looking at the three games now, it all makes absolute sense.  FFG have given us a Star Wars game with a variety of different flavours to suit any taste, all of which are compatible, and given us Force-users that are both potentially awesome and balanced with other characters.

 

Colour me impressed.

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The weird irony here is that you can do overpowered Marvel Superhero/Anime stuff with the Force powers as presented in F&D.

 

You just can't do it with a starting character.

 

What is telling about Erik (and players like him) is that he wouldn't be happy with all the players starting at 1000-2000 XP and playing Revans/Han Solos/Boba Fetts/ObiWan's right out of the box.  What is telling is that HE wants to start with loads of XP and everyone else start at zero.

 

Which is maybe one reason he's not writing for FFG :)

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I think that Jedi main characters in the movies, and players' attempts to replicate their abilities talent-by-talent, rather than in a more narrative sense, are causing many people to expect too much.

 

I mentioned this in another thread, but almost every Jedi who is shown more than once in the movies becomes a Master by the end of the Clone Wars.  Mace Windu, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, Plo Koon; these are literally the best warriors the Jedi Order has to offer, their abilities forged in the most violent conflict of the era.

 

A starting character is probably equivalent to the Padawan killed in front of Bail Organa during Order 66, while a +150 XP "Knight" (which I accept as an abstract term chosen for its familiarity, rather than accuracy) would just be one of many littering the floor of the Geonosis arena.

 

You know I'm surprised at how many contentious issues that actually proved correct in the long run.

 

I was sceptical, but looking at the three games now, it all makes absolute sense.  FFG have given us a Star Wars game with a variety of different flavours to suit any taste, all of which are compatible, and given us Force-users that are both potentially awesome and balanced with other characters.

 

Colour me impressed.

 

Seconded.  F&D provides fair and balanced starting "Jedi" characters, but has the capability (with exorbitant amounts of XP and a fair amount of luck) to portray almost any movie, book, comic, or even video game moment in Star Wars.

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It should be also noted that (following on with Maelora's remark on how much XP is needed for the "overpowered Marvel Superhero/Anime stuff") the system can mesh with the prequels because -- at least according to the old Legends lore -- the Jedi Masters depicted in the prequels did have that many adventures/encounters/missions under their belt!

 

P.S. As a courtesy, don't quote Erik in your replies, because that bypasses the ignores!

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I think the title perfectly hits the problem, i (being a new player) for one discoverd that my jedi expectations were  too great for what the game actually provides.

More specifically while i never imagined to be able to play Obi-Wan right out of the box, i thought that the starting character could be comparable to Ahsoka, who is a brand new padawan just out of the temple (actually she should have washed out nto  the JSC by that time lorewise, but nevermind that xD). Instead i discovered after creating my character that my Jedi is weak as kiitten with a just a couple basic force pwers and  a couple of talents, because i could not afford to buy anything else, and that's without increasing the free starting ranks in the skills. It mashes with my character concept and i probably will have to redo the background, but it's really a jarring contrast to what he should be able to do/try and what he can actually accompplish. I have no doubts it will grow to be a powerful and effective jedi, i am doubtful of his effectiveness in the group as it is now.

Considerign that as someone already pointed out the Jedi in this system will be always spread thin, i wonder if FFG didn't make a mistake by giving too few xp points at start. It really feels like playing a D&D starting wizard, and that's something i hate, especially since all other careers seem to be suitably competent at their job right out of the box.

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I really like Force and Destiny. I love the fact that they've given everyone an option to be awesome (by starting out with 150-300 XP, if they wish, for Advanced or Knight-level play), and yet still managed to create Force users which are epic without being anime super-beings.

 

And let's not forget that this is a narrative game: if you have a character with a lightsaber, the Lightsaber skill, and a few ranks of Parry, what's to say that you can't describe his dual with the Inquisitor as something similar to Obi-Wan versus Darth Maul? Nothing. The back-and-forth of Strain damaging/healing is representative of the close-calls, near-misses, and exhaustion that happens during a prolonged combat; and remember that a single combat turn lasts for about 15 seconds (IIRC). The fact that Stain values rising and falling in place of actual damage helps to prolong combat is actually given reference in the GM section of the book.

 

In short, you can still have epic Force users with lightsabers who aspire to learn and become Jedi. The people who stomp and strop and claim that they can't are limited not by the rules, but by their own refusal to make full-use of a good thing.

Edited by Shakespearian_Soldier

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Jest because jedi are awesome, doesnt mean muggles cant be awesme too.

 

Build your 500 XP jedi, and I'll build a 500 XP droid assassin.

 

This is true. After two years of play and about 700 XP (counting starting 100), the Wookie Hired Gun Mercenary/ Soldier/ Maurader is still the most dangerous character in our game. This isn't a one-to-one comparison with Force and Destiny because my character is more of a Force Wizard/ Face character, but here is how it would go:

 

Assuming I went first, at this point my Bounty Hunter Survivalist/ FS Exile/ FS Emergent can maybe throw a starfighter at him and deal 30 damage. But, there is a good chance I would fail the roll even with three Force dice and a lot of Willpower. Hitting him for 30 damage, after his Soak, won't even drop him.

 

If he went first with his fully kitted automatic bowcaster he could Autofire my poor Twi'Lek, probably hitting three times for 23/20/20 damage. Good by young Force User.

 

Out of curiosity, what's a resonabe challange for 500 bonus XP characters?

 

 

We trade GM responsibilities, which is how we played so long and accrued so much total XP with the same characters. Really it is a bunch of mini campaigns with the same characters.

 

I adapted Argovia Strike from WEG's Instant Adventures, and used the same difficulties listed for d6. Some examples:

 

Set explosives to destroy an Imperial Listening Station outside the Power Core:

PPPP

 

Set explosives at the Power Core:

PPP

With Dim Light +B

 

Try to overload the Power Core with the computers instead of explosives:

RPPP

 

Use forged IDs to get past an Imperial Stormtroopers at a checkpoint:

RRPP with B if the PCs are using the right shipping company coveralls.

 

Personnel in the adventure:

Leona Makk (Smuggler AoR p.220)

 

Battz the forger (Expert Forger AoR p.218)

 

6 Strong Thugs (Hired Thug AoR p.219)

 

2 Loansharks (Black Marketeer AoR p.218)

Metal Baton YYGGG

 

Mining Company Police (Imperial Army Officer AoR p.214 with

Agility 3

Blaster Rifle YYYGG

 

3 TIE Fighters

6 TIE pilots (AoR p.218)

 

2 Stormtrooper Sgt. (AoR p.216)

16 Stormtroopers (AoR p.215)

 

5 Scout Troopers (AoR p.216)

 

2 Army Officers (AoR p.214)

16 Imp. Army Troopers (AoR p.214)

 

Imperial Engineer (Overseer AoR p.215)

Various Civilian Support Staff (about 60; 30 working at any one time)

Airspeeders

 

Bulwark Imperial Interdictor Cruiser is in the system

 

If the Complex is alerted:

Mechanical Blast Doors: No Computers check possible unless in Security Center

Imperial Garrison in Argovas City is alerted

In 2d10 turns Juggernaut Ground Assault Vehicle arrives with crew and 50 Stromtroopers (use AT-AT stats)

50 Stormtroopers arrive at spaceport until the Imp. Governor gives a stand-down order.

Star Destroyers patrolling the sector are re-routed.

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I think the title perfectly hits the problem, i (being a new player) for one discoverd that my jedi expectations were  too great for what the game actually provides.

More specifically while i never imagined to be able to play Obi-Wan right out of the box, i thought that the starting character could be comparable to Ahsoka, who is a brand new padawan just out of the temple (actually she should have washed out nto  the JSC by that time lorewise, but nevermind that xD). Instead i discovered after creating my character that my Jedi is weak as kiitten with a just a couple basic force pwers and  a couple of talents, because i could not afford to buy anything else, and that's without increasing the free starting ranks in the skills. It mashes with my character concept and i probably will have to redo the background, but it's really a jarring contrast to what he should be able to do/try and what he can actually accompplish. I have no doubts it will grow to be a powerful and effective jedi, i am doubtful of his effectiveness in the group as it is now.

Considerign that as someone already pointed out the Jedi in this system will be always spread thin, i wonder if FFG didn't make a mistake by giving too few xp points at start. It really feels like playing a D&D starting wizard, and that's something i hate, especially since all other careers seem to be suitably competent at their job right out of the box.

 

I think Ahsoka Tano is tough to model because of all the things she does in the cartoon. It isn't a perfect comparison but even in the Star Wars Saga Edition RPG I think she was level 5, which she needed to get lightsaber Block, Deflect, and Redirect. Right from her introduction she is quite strong with a lightsaber.

 

I'm not sure what the solution is for XP. A couple of us in our group were discussing using a priority system for spending XP like in the old Shadowrun games. Everyone would get a lot of XP, but they would spend it differently to buy characteristics, skills, talents, gear, or Force powers. One player might prioritize talents to be great at dueling. Another might put gear as the highest priority to start with a personal starfighter or beskar'gam armor. Those that don't buy a ship need to ride in the vehicle granted through the Obligation or Duty decisions.

 

Lookig at the previews of the new Rebels cartoon, I would ask your GM to grant the group more XP. Maybe that means bringing in the Obligation or Duty mechanics from the other game lines, or maybe the rising tide just helps everyone. The other players don't have to spend their XP right away if they want to play as less experienced characters. That way your group could model the experience of having a kid running around with the obviously more experienced Jedi and crew. The kid can then spend XP more freely from the bank of it during play while everyone else will seem to progress more slowly.

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Thanks for the reply, Master Gunner. I already proposed to my group to start at knight level but they refused and prefered to roll starting characters so i'll have to go with that.

The priority system for spending XP sounds interesting. I'll see how the game goes after a feew sessions then decide if i should raise the issue.

I'm also interested in how the other groups deal with having a charcter, the jedi who  has to spread thin, while  other can focus on their spec and become proficient in their tade much faster, and if this  creates balance problems.

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I think the title perfectly hits the problem, i (being a new player) for one discoverd that my jedi expectations were  too great for what the game actually provides.

More specifically while i never imagined to be able to play Obi-Wan right out of the box, i thought that the starting character could be comparable to Ahsoka, who is a brand new padawan just out of the temple (actually she should have washed out nto  the JSC by that time lorewise, but nevermind that xD). Instead i discovered after creating my character that my Jedi is weak as kiitten with a just a couple basic force pwers and  a couple of talents, because i could not afford to buy anything else, and that's without increasing the free starting ranks in the skills. It mashes with my character concept and i probably will have to redo the background, but it's really a jarring contrast to what he should be able to do/try and what he can actually accompplish. I have no doubts it will grow to be a powerful and effective jedi, i am doubtful of his effectiveness in the group as it is now.

Considerign that as someone already pointed out the Jedi in this system will be always spread thin, i wonder if FFG didn't make a mistake by giving too few xp points at start. It really feels like playing a D&D starting wizard, and that's something i hate, especially since all other careers seem to be suitably competent at their job right out of the box.

 

I think the problem you have is that you expect to play Jedi - Force and Destiny allows you to play someone who is trying to tread in their footsteps, not a person who has spent years training since he was a youngling. You're someone who has just learned that he/she is Force Sensitive, and is trying to understand what that means/what he/she can do; whereas a youngling has already spent the better part of a decade training every single day of his/her life.

 

This is a good justification for why Luke in Empire Strikes Back is comparibly weak compared to Anakin in Attack of the Clones - the son had spent a year or two trying to learn what he could, whilst his father had spent ten years going out on missions, learning from a Master and having access to a Temple full of archives, holocrons, and teachers. People here can make any argument that they want, but the truth is that you cannot compare the two favourably. The former will be weaker than the latter where training and experience is concerned. Full stop.

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