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Col. Orange

Is the Dark Side "seductive"?

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Not like that, y'perv.

 

From what I'm reading here* (though I am only half paying attention) as your Morality plummets your Strain Threshold drops a bit and you start using black dots to fuel your powers...

So is there anything there to represent Anakin being "seduced by the dark side of the Force"?

Vader keeps telling Luke he doesn't know nuthin' about the Force until he understands the Dark Side, but Pa Skywalker isn't one to toss around Dark Side powers, so I'm curious what the game is doing to incentivise its use.  And if those incentives hold true to the films.

 

 

* in the forum - I don't have the book.

Edited by Col. Orange
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Not like that, y'perv.

 

Darth Talon would like to respectfully disagree.

EGFTrev3.jpg

 

 

From what I'm reading here* (though I am only half paying attention) as your Morality plummets your Strain Threshold drops a bit and you start using black dots to fuel your powers...

So is there anything there to represent Anakin being "seduced by the dark side of the Force"?

Vader keeps telling Luke he doesn't know nuthin' about the Force until he understand the Dark Side, but Pa Skywalker isn't one to toss around Dark Side powers, so I'm curious what the game is doing to incentivise its use.  And if those incentives hold true to the films.

 

 

It depends on your Certain Point of View. (Sidenote: The more I understand Obi-wan, the more I realize he's a total a-hole).

The thing about the Darkside in mechanics, is it's exactly what Yoda and EU Sith teachings say. Not more powerful, just faster and easier, and without the typical limitations.

 

So while the Darkside doesn't show up in a leather tube top (usually) what it can do is literally tempt and seduce the player more directly. The chances of rolling a dark pip is higher then a white, so on many rolls, especially at FR 1, the player is going to be staring at a black dot and thinking that if he used that he could totally do something awesome. Or they could look at an enemy and think "Man I could just toss him out that window and this encounter would be over right now!" And when you've darksided out... now you're done, yeah, you can't use light pips without the penalty, and you take a hit in the strain, but on the other hand... you don't have to care a bit about those conflict points the GM is handing you...

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Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

Dark Side powers are more likely to deal damage, and dealing damage with Force powers generates conflict points.  Which isn't as big a deal for a bad guy.

And you can't just hack and slash your way to victory if you're a good guy.

But it's not so bad if you're bad.  :P

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Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

 

 

That's actually not true. There are the same number of pips for both sides on the die. There are more sides that have dark side pips, though.

 

It's really seductive when you are starting out. The statistics are much more in favor of the dark side when you are scraping for anything to fuel your powers. If you start at 50 Morality, a few conflict points don't mean that much, especially when it means the difference between success and failure.

 

As you progress, though, the greater number of dice allow you to leverage those light pip sides, and the odds move toward a balance between light and dark as far as probability is concerned.

 

End result is that the dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive up front, but it it doesn't claim you early you find it is not as powerful. Elegant system, if you ask me.

Edited by Doc, the Weasel

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Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

Dark Side powers are more likely to deal damage, and dealing damage with Force powers generates conflict points.  Which isn't as big a deal for a bad guy.

And you can't just hack and slash your way to victory if you're a good guy.

But it's not so bad if you're bad.   :P

Black pips are more likely to come up as they are on 7 faces of a D12, but there are 8 pips of each on the die. So ultimately over time you would generate equal numbers of pips, it's just that on any given roll you are more likely to see DS pips.

Edited by 2P51
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Black pips are more common than white pips on a Force check.

 

 

That's actually not true. There are the same number of pips for both sides on the die. There are more sides that have dark side pips, though.

 

It's really seductive when you are starting out. The statistics are much more in favor of the dark side when you are scraping for anything to fuel your powers. If you start at 50 Morality, a few conflict points don't mean that much, especially when it means the difference between success and failure.

 

As you progress, though, the greater number of dice allow you to leverage those light pip sides, and the odds move toward a balance between light and dark as far as probability is concerned.

 

End result is that the dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive up front, but it it doesn't claim you early you find it is not as powerful. Elegant system, if you ask me.

 

Probability actually doesn't shift, it is constant, on any given roll you will always have a 58.333% chance to have a DS face come up.  It's the 41.667% LS faces that will generate more LS pips per roll.  So taking the long view and total pips generated it will even out, but more often than not DS pips will come up, just in fewer numbers.

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Solid points (Ghost of Man and 2Pirate51 win this thread).  It's sounding like the low Morality is more useful to Sith Sorcerer types than to men (and wimin) who just want to cut your head off.

 

 

If Twi'Leks come from a hot planet, surely they'd need to wrap up warm when they go abroad?

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Add to the Force dice issue the fact that dark side power usage affords you more control, allows you to bend others to your will. For example, look at Battle Meditation: with the dark side version, you get to give orders that many would be unable to resist. That's a powerful form of control. On top of that, there's the freedom the dark side brings of not having to censure yourself, and being able to indulge in whatever actions you wish. You can give in to all of your pettiness, vengefulness, lust, greed, etc... 

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come_to_the_dark_side_6951.jpg

Come to the Dark Side!

They have boobies! :P

 

Okay, now that I've gotten that out of the way, onto the more serious stuff...

 

The Dark Side is "seductive" not only in terms of being able to use those dark side pips to generate Force Points, thus making it more likely for you to activate your Force powers, but the Conflict chart lists a number of actions that are Standard Operating Procedure for many gaming groups that now generate Conflict points, with the really high Conflict-generating actions being things like torture and murdering a helpless person, but even wanton destruction of property or killing generates a lot of Conflict.  Heck, just leaping into a fight without trying to resolve it diplomatically generates a point of Conflict.

 

This is way I think the name Morality works for this mechanic, because it's influenced not only by how you use the Force, but also by what actions you take.  I've long said that if you want a good idea of how a proper Jedi should act, then use Obi-Wan as your example.  Granted, he's not a saint, but his actions are of the type that are going to generate little to no Conflict during an encounter.  On the opposite side, you've got Anakin who seems more focused on finding the fastest solution to a problem, even if it requires resorting to violence rather than diplomacy, particularly if Obi-Wan's not around to reign him in.

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So is there anything there to represent Anakin being "seduced by the dark side of the Force"?

No.

By the RAW that was all Palpatine scoring massively on his Charm and Deceit checks... and Vader being a deluded fool.

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I think it is a combination of things, primarily you have players that start with FR: 1 and want UNLIMITED POWERZZ!!  So the temptation is built into the die mechanic it.  You then have RP options that come up during the game.  And to truly walk the path of a Jedi is difficult.  My FSE has had a hell of a time staying light in our Edge game.  Considering things like looking the other way when the group does bad things, to not wanting to fail certain checks!  It makes falling a slippery slope.

 

I agree with Doc, I think it is quite elegant the way it is handled.

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I also like to have seduction be replicated by the GM in the player's ear.

 

The tools are all there for seduction - the GM is free to "act the part of the dark side" by pointing them out to the Force Sensitive. "Sure coercing that guard might generate a point of Conflict, but the party needs this information and the guy just isn't playing ball - with lives hanging in the balance, surely coercing this scum is justified?"

 

And what about when you're in the middle of combat? "That dangerous, insane Wookiee is beating the hell into your companion, and you're too far away to help. You were smart to use Move, since you couldn't physically get there in time - and you still can use it, if you're willing to flip a Destiny Point to use those dark side pips. It could mean the difference between life and death for your companion - and what's a point of Conflict compared to that?"

 

The more the player does it, the more he relies on it. Because no-one likes to experience a resource (in this case, being free to act/use a power more leniently) and then have it taken away.

Edited by Shakespearian_Soldier

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YES!

 

Prior to F&Db, Gand never used a DS pip to activate any of the powers that he had.  He was neutered (by my choice).  Now that we have more fleshed out rules for what can happen if one does use them, Gand had a lot of fun our last session testing out Morality.  He was much more effective and I as the player had a lot more fun.  He even gained Morality at the end of the session.

 

In one session I have found that the DS is seductive and also will lead to some interesting RP potential down the line.  Will Gand see the error of his ways (as he slides down the Morality scale), or will he not care as he uses those pips to save the people that he feels responsible for?

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Not like that, y'perv.

 

 

To late! Already started thinking of Darth Talon! :)

 

It's difficult not to.

 

 

I also like to have seduction be replicated by the GM in the player's ear.

 

The tools are all there for seduction - the GM is free to "act the part of the dark side" by pointing them out to the Force Sensitive. "Sure coercing that guard might generate a point of Conflict, but the party needs this information and the guy just isn't playing ball - with lives hanging in the balance, surely coercing this scum is justified?"

 

And what about when you're in the middle of combat? "That dangerous, insane Wookiee is beating the hell into your companion, and you're too far away to help. You were smart to use Move, since you couldn't physically get there in time - and you still can use it, if you're willing to flip a Destiny Point to use those dark side pips. It could mean the difference between life and death for your companion - and what's a point of Conflict compared to that?"

 

The more the player does it, the more he relies on it. Because no-one likes to experience a resource (in this case, being free to act/use a power more leniently) and then have it taken away.

I wish I could like this more. Mostly quoted for emphasis. If a GM isn't doing this to their Paragons, they should.

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I also like to have seduction be replicated by the GM in the player's ear.

 

The tools are all there for seduction - the GM is free to "act the part of the dark side" by pointing them out to the Force Sensitive. "Sure coercing that guard might generate a point of Conflict, but the party needs this information and the guy just isn't playing ball - with lives hanging in the balance, surely coercing this scum is justified?"

 

And what about when you're in the middle of combat? "That dangerous, insane Wookiee is beating the hell into your companion, and you're too far away to help. You were smart to use Move, since you couldn't physically get there in time - and you still can use it, if you're willing to flip a Destiny Point to use those dark side pips. It could mean the difference between life and death for your companion - and what's a point of Conflict compared to that?"

 

The more the player does it, the more he relies on it. Because no-one likes to experience a resource (in this case, being free to act/use a power more leniently) and then have it taken away.

Well said.

 

What amuses me, right now, is that it is these sorts of compromises and rationalizations that we, ourselves, use as Star Wars fans in general (and RPG folk in specific) to justify character actions.

Edited by Aluminium Falcon

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The WEG system gave you a mechanical bonus for having Dark Side points, making it easier to use force powers, so there was a temptation to acquire Dark Side points... however, if you acquired too many (between 2-7, depending on how lucky you were in rolling to avoid falling... even getting 3 gave you quite a noticeable chance of falling) you would fall to the dark side and become an NPC (who no longer got the benefit of Dark Side points, as the Dark Side had no need to temp them any further).

 

The WEG system was pretty punishing for handing out Dark Side points to force sensitive characters (basically any aggressive use of the force at any level... excepting the lightsaber power which just bypassed this entirely). While using the bonus granted by dark side points you had to be even more careful about how you used your powers otherwise you would get other dark side points... though you could choose not to use them... but then it made activating your powers harder than normal.

 

Just to give some sense of how "evil" someone was meant to be, Luke Skywalker is classed as having 2 Dark Side points at the end of the Return of the Jedi.

 

It was an interesting system... but many of the individual powers were poorly executed, and the power balance was totally out of whack. There was also no attempt to balance force users against non-force users. They started underpowered (as they couldn't really use any powers at all, and sacrificed general ability for the use of the force, but about the point they could reliably use their powers they could totally overpower almost any non-force using threat thrown at them (as long as they had a lightsaber).

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