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Stillborn

Another game of RTL another butt load of questions!

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OK so we had another round of RTL and here are my questions
(thanks in advance btw, your a good lot and an incredible resource, I'd love to play a game with any of you if your ever in vancouver!):

 

1) When using Runemaster Thorn, whose ability is "Once per turn, Runemaster Thorn may spend 5 movement points to move to any empty space in his line of sight.", can u really Battle, then spend 2 of his fatigue, then use 1 of his fatigue to drink a stamina potion, then spend another 3 fatigue, for a total of 5 fatigue to warp anywhere and blast my sorry ass twice? :P

2) I don't understand train/vist/restock as well as I should. For instance, does doing one stop you from doing another? how many visits can I make? can I visit if I'm training?

3) When onefist makes his one free melee attack does he get his off hand sword bonus? he gets all his mellee dice too right?

4) When using something like the guantlets of power, can you use the surges on an attacks that miss?

5) Why don't players think that trapmaster (+2 damge on traps) applies to Dark Charm attacks? (I just needed to vent)

6) When I use dark charm on a player, do I get to take threat for surges rolled, if I do does that mean I can't spend them on blasts? Do I get the benefit of equiped item that provide surges?

7) Kirga's ability does not allow the overlord to spawn mosters within 5 spaces, regardless of los or other effects. My players take this to mean it goes through walls, and down stairs. I'm willing to give them down stairs, but through walls seems stupid, is there a ruling somewhere that backs me up?

8) When Tahlia discards a guard order to make an interrupt attak, she may move a number of spaces up to her speed before or after attacking. Does this also mean she can use her fatigue to go further, or her movement to drink potions? Can I throw pits or stones at her while she makes her move?

I think i should leave it at that so I don't wear out my welcome here!

 

Cheers,

SB

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1) I think that was done legally.

2) They are all different actions depending on circumstances.  If you end your movement on a town, you can take a Visit action and the Heroes each decide which building they are going to.  This means go to basically anywhere but the Training Grounds and do what is listed under Visit.  Restocks are done when you are in town during the course of a dungeon, your Hero goes to whatever building they want after going through the glyph or into the Temple if they died.  Train means that you have to had started the game week in that location.  Re-read the three bulleted descriptions on page 21 of the RtL rulebook.

3) He gets his melee dice.  As for offhand bonuses, this is a point of argument for some.  I do not believe he does by the RAW because in order to get an offhand bonus you have to have two items equipped and he is incapable of doing that.

4) No, the attack has to hit a valid target.  Look in the FAQ.

5)  Because players don't see it as a Trap card, except it is.

6) To the best of my knowledge, noAgain, another point of argument.  No game effect go through walls according to the RAW IMO, so Kirga actually has to count 5 spaces.  Same thing for stairs, look at the Stairs thread on here for the arguments.

8) No, she can not spend fatigue since fatigue can only be spent on the Heroes turn and the Guard happens during the OL's turn.  As for the traps, I want to say you can but I'm not positive.

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Stillborn said:

1) When using Runemaster Thorn, whose ability is "Once per turn, Runemaster Thorn may spend 5 movement points to move to any empty space in his line of sight.", can u really Battle, then spend 2 of his fatigue, then use 1 of his fatigue to drink a stamina potion, then spend another 3 fatigue, for a total of 5 fatigue to warp anywhere and blast my sorry ass twice? :P

2) I don't understand train/vist/restock as well as I should. For instance, does doing one stop you from doing another? how many visits can I make? can I visit if I'm training?

3) When onefist makes his one free melee attack does he get his off hand sword bonus? he gets all his mellee dice too right?

4) When using something like the guantlets of power, can you use the surges on an attacks that miss?

5) Why don't players think that trapmaster (+2 damge on traps) applies to Dark Charm attacks? (I just needed to vent)

6) When I use dark charm on a player, do I get to take threat for surges rolled, if I do does that mean I can't spend them on blasts? Do I get the benefit of equiped item that provide surges?

7) Kirga's ability does not allow the overlord to spawn mosters within 5 spaces, regardless of los or other effects. My players take this to mean it goes through walls, and down stairs. I'm willing to give them down stairs, but through walls seems stupid, is there a ruling somewhere that backs me up?

8) When Tahlia discards a guard order to make an interrupt attak, she may move a number of spaces up to her speed before or after attacking. Does this also mean she can use her fatigue to go further, or her movement to drink potions? Can I throw pits or stones at her while she makes her move?

1. Yes, you can. You spend fatigue,  1 point at a time, to gain MP. However you do not need to spend MP immediately and can 'save' them (although they are lost at the end of your turn). This is different to Telekinesis for example.

2. RTFM. Pg 21 for using buildings, 21-22 for the individual possibilities for each building. See also pg 10 under Party Actions. Take note of things like "..he visits one of the buildings..."
Having said that. possibly slightly rudely (sorry, not my intention, but a sincere request - everyone should always try actually reading the rules/faq before asking questions here), many have asked this and other questions that are clear and black and white in the rules (indeed, many of the FAQ answers are to questions that really should never have been asked!) me included. SO don't feel bad about missing stuff, even blatantly obvious stuff.

3. Yes he gets his melee dice - it is explicitly a melee attack. Technically he does not get an offhand bonus - see DJitD pg 19 for the requirements to use Off Hand bonuses, and he does not fulfill them. However it is a relatively common and iIMO minor houserule to allow him to do so.

4. No. Spending surges is part of the attack sequence, even if they are not spent on something related to the attack. If yo miss, the attack fails. See also FAQ ruilings on pg 5 about spending surges during attacks vs empty spaces etc that follow similar principles.

5. Because it doesn't. Read the text. It works on traps that do damage. Dark charm does not do damage, it enables an attack. Similarly an Ice trap (treachery from ToI) doesn't do damage, so does not benefit fom Trapmaster (for extra damage at least - all traps, Dark Charm included, get the benefit of cheaper casting).

6. You can spend surges for threat. Of course it means you can't then spend the surges for Blast. Surges spent are gone, spent you might say... Yes, you get the benefit of equipped items.

7. The spaces have to be actually counted. You can't count spaces through walls, because they don't exist. Similarly, area connected by staircases are not actually 'connected' - they just count, for certain specific purposes (only), as adjacent and have some special LOS rules. Technically, if Kirga is standing on a staircase you can spawn 2 spaces away from the staircase in the other area (both staircase and 1 space away would be in LOS).
However, although RAW, this is one of the more lawyerly options and probably not worth pushing hard if heroes protest (unless you are a humanoid lover fighting an already uphill battle vs a Kirga/Boggs party).

8. No, she cannot use fatigue. Using fatigue (for MP) is only an option during the heroes turn, and this is during the OLs turn.
Check the wording of the cards as to whether you can use them on her or not. I suspect yes, because they probably say "when a hero moves into a space..." rather than "During the heroes turn, when the hero moves into a space..."

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"7. The spaces have to be actually counted. You can't count spaces through walls, because they don't exist. Similarly, area connected by staircases are not actually 'connected' - they just count, for certain specific purposes (only), as adjacent and have some special LOS rules. Technically, if Kirga is standing on a staircase you can spawn 2 spaces away from the staircase in the other area (both staircase and 1 space away would be in LOS).
However, although RAW, this is one of the more lawyerly options and probably not worth pushing hard if heroes protest (unless you are a humanoid lover fighting an already uphill battle vs a Kirga/Boggs party)."

 

I would say that Kirga can in fact prevent spawning through a stair. I think you just have to be able to legally 'fly' to the space. Which you can through a stair. Though I might be wrong.

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edderkoppen said:

 

"7. The spaces have to be actually counted. You can't count spaces through walls, because they don't exist. Similarly, area connected by staircases are not actually 'connected' - they just count, for certain specific purposes (only), as adjacent and have some special LOS rules. Technically, if Kirga is standing on a staircase you can spawn 2 spaces away from the staircase in the other area (both staircase and 1 space away would be in LOS).
However, although RAW, this is one of the more lawyerly options and probably not worth pushing hard if heroes protest (unless you are a humanoid lover fighting an already uphill battle vs a Kirga/Boggs party)."

 

I would say that Kirga can in fact prevent spawning through a stair. I think you just have to be able to legally 'fly' to the space. Which you can through a stair. Though I might be wrong.

 

 

Since stairs are not actually adjacent, only counting 'as though' adjacent in certain specific circumstances, you can't connect from one to the other when doing the Kirga thing, although LOS must still be considered for spawning.There is no actual connection, much the same as there is no actual connection between spaces separated by walls.

RtL pg 27
For one movement point, a figure in a staircase space can move to the matching staircase space as though it were adjacent. Attacks may be made across matching staircase spaces as though the two ends were adjacent. A figure on a staircase has a line of sight to the other side of the staircase and all spaces adjacent to it. A figure adjacent to a staircase has line of sight to the other side of the staircase.

The same must be considered for secret passages and magic gateways, as found in several RtL levels.

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Were do you find that you are allowed to "save" spend fatigue to use it later in your turn? I as an OL would prevent my players from doing this, and even as a player I find this really strange.

And where does it say that you are not allowed to spend fatigue on the OL turn? There is a skill which allows you to spend fatigue and then attack a monster during the OL turn (I cannot remember the name). This would not make any sense at all if you were not allowed to spend fatigue during the OL`s turn.

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Argur said:

Were do you find that you are allowed to "save" spend fatigue to use it later in your turn? I as an OL would prevent my players from doing this, and even as a player I find this really strange.

And where does it say that you are not allowed to spend fatigue on the OL turn? There is a skill which allows you to spend fatigue and then attack a monster during the OL turn (I cannot remember the name). This would not make any sense at all if you were not allowed to spend fatigue during the OL`s turn.

Not sure with the first, however, I'm certain that you can. Just not certain where to find the evidence :)

As for the second. You 'can' use fatigue during the OL turn, though not to gain movement points. Also, the OL cannot force you to spend fatigue (with Dark Charm for example).

Corbon: I think that is a very RAW reading, but I can certainly see your point.

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edderkoppen said:

 

Argur said:

 

Were do you find that you are allowed to "save" spend fatigue to use it later in your turn? I as an OL would prevent my players from doing this, and even as a player I find this really strange.

And where does it say that you are not allowed to spend fatigue on the OL turn? There is a skill which allows you to spend fatigue and then attack a monster during the OL turn (I cannot remember the name). This would not make any sense at all if you were not allowed to spend fatigue during the OL`s turn.

 

 

Not sure with the first, however, I'm certain that you can. Just not certain where to find the evidence :)

As for the second. You 'can' use fatigue during the OL turn, though not to gain movement points. Also, the OL cannot force you to spend fatigue (with Dark Charm for example).

Corbon: I think that is a very RAW reading, but I can certainly see your point.

 

 

Strictly speaking you don't really 'save' the fatigue you spend, you spend it immediately to gain MP, which do not have to be spent immediately, so it amounts to the same thing. It is clear that you do not have to spend MP 'immediately' as, for example, when Advancing you get MP equal to your Move when you declare the Advance but can attack first.

As for spending fatigue for movement only in the heroes turn? It does not say that you cannot do it in the OL turn but see 'Spending Fatigue for Movement' DJitD pg 18.
"At any time during a hero's turn, he may spend one fatigue to gain one movement point..."
As far as I am concerned that effectively means you can't do it during the OL's turn. Like nuclear weapons, that just isn't something the rules allow. gran_risa.gif

You definitely can spend fatigue on various other things (mainly skills or trait dice upgrades) during the OL's turn, however, gaining MP (and therefore anything that required spending MP, like drinking a potion, reequipping etc) is not something you can do.

@ Edderkoppen: Yes, as I noted, it is a very strict RAW, and is a pretty reasonable place for a minor house rule.
 

Oh, and for the OP. 
8. Although Talia cannot spend fatigue to gain MP she can spend her MP (that she already receives due to her special) on drinking a potion (or other Movement Actions, like requipping) according to either a FAQ answer or the GLoAQ, I don't recall which. Essentially, insteading of being allowed to Move spaces up to her movement (which would get her past difficult terrain too easily for example), she actually receives MP equal to her movement which she can spend in any appropriate way.

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Corbon said:

5. Because it doesn't. Read the text. It works on traps that do damage. Dark charm does not do damage, it enables an attack. Similarly an Ice trap (treachery from ToI) doesn't do damage, so does not benefit fom Trapmaster (for extra damage at least - all traps, Dark Charm included, get the benefit of cheaper casting).

I knew I was wrong on this after I posted it and thought about it some.  That's what I get for answering questions late at night.

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for #6 just treat it like any attack the hero would normally make, he's just making it against himself or a fellow hero.  Any items or skills that give pluses to damage or added surges, etc.will be used and you may choose how to spend the surges.  Just no spending fatigue.

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1) When using Runemaster Thorn, whose ability is "Once per turn, Runemaster Thorn may spend 5 movement points to move to any empty space in his line of sight.", can u really Battle, then spend 2 of his fatigue, then use 1 of his fatigue to drink a stamina potion, then spend another 3 fatigue, for a total of 5 fatigue to warp anywhere and blast my sorry ass twice? :P

 

We have RT in our group, and we've ruled that the 5MP spent to teleport need to be spent at the same time.  i.e: Using the ability costs 5MP at the point it is used.  I'm not 100% sure of your example, but it sounds like he spent some fatigue to gain MP, drinks potion to get more fatigue to give him 5MP in total.  I wouldnt allow this.  The drinking of the potion is in the middle of the use of the ability.

Since RT only has 3 fatigue, he cannot battle and teleport on the same turn.

I'm prepared to be proved wrong if someone can quote rules at me.

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Paul Grogan said:

 

1) When using Runemaster Thorn, whose ability is "Once per turn, Runemaster Thorn may spend 5 movement points to move to any empty space in his line of sight.", can u really Battle, then spend 2 of his fatigue, then use 1 of his fatigue to drink a stamina potion, then spend another 3 fatigue, for a total of 5 fatigue to warp anywhere and blast my sorry ass twice? :P

 

We have RT in our group, and we've ruled that the 5MP spent to teleport need to be spent at the same time.  i.e: Using the ability costs 5MP at the point it is used.  I'm not 100% sure of your example, but it sounds like he spent some fatigue to gain MP, drinks potion to get more fatigue to give him 5MP in total.  I wouldnt allow this.  The drinking of the potion is in the middle of the use of the ability.

Since RT only has 3 fatigue, he cannot battle and teleport on the same turn.

I'm prepared to be proved wrong if someone can quote rules at me.

 

 

The drinking of the potion is not in the middle of the use of the ability. The ability requires 5 MP to be spent. RT merely needs to acquire 5 MP at some stage, any stage, and spend that 5 simultaneously on using the ability.
Would you allow someone to battle and then use 2 fatigue to move into a mud space? It is essentially the same thing. The 2 MP are acquired separately, accumulate, and then are used simultaneously.
Do you allow someone to Advance, move some spaces, attack, then move some more (as is specifically allowed by the Advance rule on DJitD pg8)? It is essentially the same thing from the reverse perspective. The advancing MP are acquired together, when the Advance is declared, but are spent separately with an action in between, necessitating the 'saving' of some MP.

MP do not need to be spent as soon as they are acquired. That is evident in the Advance rule as above. It is also necessary for any fatigue expenditure requiring more than 1 MP (because you can expend 1 fatigue to gain 1 MP, repeatedly, not 2+ fatigue to gain 2+MP).

Therefore, if RT spends 3 fatigue to gain 3 MP (or 1 for  1, 3x), he does not have to spend those MP immediately. He spends 1 of them to drink a fatigue pot and has 2 MP left. He still does not need  to spend those 2 MP. He then spends his 3 new fatigue for 3 more MP giving him 5 MP. He now spends all 5 MP for his special ability.

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I agree with Corbon.  Movement points are gained, whether via speed and advance/run, elven boots/ring of quickness/wings of regiroth/being brother glyr, or fatigue spent for movement.  When you spend the fatigue, you must state that you are using it for movement points (or to activate knight, which gives you movement points, for example).  You don't have to spend the movement points right away, and RT's ability only requires he have a total of 5 movement points available at the same time to teleport.

On a side note, the Runemaster has 4 starting fatigue.  He was in our last campaign, and once he had a fatigue upgrade he could battle, teleport, AND drink a power potion for one of his 2 breath attacks...which really sucked a lot of times and made you almost not want to kill him since "if you strike him down he will come back more powerful than you could possibly imagine."  Runemaster Thorn in my side.

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 Yah the runmaster in my game has quick cast, he can battle, teleport and now triple shot me with one fatigue potion.

And yet, somehow my players find a way to lose...

It bogles the mind :P

 

 

Thanks for the clarification btw,

--SB

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