Psi power re-reqs

[dava100 32]

I feel that some of the psi power stat pre-requisites unfairly penalize and/or pigeon hole psykers into taking certain aptitudes. If they don't they face high xp costs for the stats required for certain psi powers.

 

For example

Some Telepathy powers have high a Fellowship requirement. So unless I want to face high fel xp costs I need to choose a background etc... that has social and fellowship aptitudes. This is the same for Biomancy with toughness and Divination for perception.

 

I need to look into this some more and I may house rule it to change all stat requirements on Psi powers to willpower, but first I am interested in hearing others thoughts on this issue?

Edited August 21, 2014 by dava100

[cps 686]

In previous editions of the game psykers could just stack WP and call it a day. Under the new system, psykers are incentivized to specialize. My guess it was mostly added in the interest of balance, but it also adds some depth of choice - you'll be naturally good at one school of magic and you can branch out, but one will always come easier.

 

If you want to go back to a system where psykers reign supreme by stacking nothing but WP, by all means waive the prereqs and make every test a WP test.

 

FWIW, specialized psykers are reflected in the lore. Ravenor's telekinetic psyker Kys is never seen starting a fire with her mind.

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

I feel that some of the psi power stat pre-requisites unfairly penalize and/or pigeon hole psykers into taking certain aptitudes. If they don't they face high xp costs for the stats required for certain psi powers.

 

For example

Some Telepathy powers have high a Fellowship requirement. So unless I want to face high fel xp costs I need to choose a background etc... that has social and fellowship aptitudes. This is the same for Biomancy with toughness and Divination for perception.

 

I need to look into this some more and I may house rule it to change all stat requirements on Psi powers to willpower, but first I am interested in hearing others thoughts on this issue?

This is one of the few things they did in Dark Heresy 2 that I completely agree on. Every other character has to specialize in some fashion, and spread their experience around to stay effective to various degrees. Let's say you make an Only War-esque Imperial Guard Sergeant. He/She/It needs to get some Social/Leadership/Fellowship to Command, some BS to shoot or some WS to stab, some Toughness to stay alive, some Agility to Move and Dodge.

And so on.

Meanwhile, using Black Crusade and Only War as examples, although this was true before then too, Psykers only need Willpower. In Rogue Trader or Dark Heresy, I think they also could end up needing BS or WS to hit things with certain powers, but in BC/OW, likely in an effort to cut down on rolling, it was all Willpower.

A soldier had to account for all kinds of effects to hit. Is the enemy running? -10 to BS to hit him.

 

But a Psyker? Is the enemy running? Doesn't matter. Roll Focus Power Test. You succeed, you hit. Additional Degrees of Success you say? He dead.

 

Psykers being required to have additional Characteristics make perfect sense. You try to hit someone, just because it comes out of your head or your hand doesn't mean you don't need to hit. And that's Ballistic Skill. And as a Diviner, you need to be perceptive to be able to make use of those powers.

 

Telepathy having Fellowship might feel a bit odd, but Fellowship isn't just how you look or how you act, it's also your force of personality, your ability to project yourself upon others empathically. Making sense out of your own personality and the personality of others, their experiences, I have no trouble seeing how that would be a prereq. for Telepathy.

 

In my opinion, they should've gone back closer to the system of Disciplines that they were using in Rogue Trader. The idea of Sanctioned Psykers "hedging" their psychic powers is extremely odd to me. The Scholastia Psykana seems to favour specialization, apart from the most basic of abilities.

 

There should be a "General" Discipline (similar to the "Unaligned" powers in Black Crusade) that represents basic powers that most psykers display, such as Short-Range Telepathy and Basic Telekinesis. But everything else should require some form of specialization and hedging outside of that should come with penalties.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Fgdsfg

[dava100 32]

You are both missing my point which I may not have articulated very well. I also agree with much of what you have both said.

 

What I was trying to get across is not the fact that there are pre-reqs but that if you want to be say a Telepath who doesn't incur a heavy xp cost for Fellowship your best bet is to take a noble homeworld as they get fellowship as an aptitude.

 

If I want to play a feral astra telepathica mystic I get neither social nor fellowship aptitudes which means compared to a noble astra telepathica mystic I have to pay more for my fellowship advances. This is what I do not like.

Edited August 21, 2014 by dava100

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

You are both missing my point which I may not have articulated very well. I also agree with much of what you have both said.

 

What I was trying to get across is not the fact that there are pre-reqs but that if you want to be say a Telepath who doesn't incur a heavy xp cost for Fellowship your best bet is to take a noble homeworld as they get fellowship as an aptitude.

 

If I want to play a Feral worlder astra telepathica mystic I get neither social nor fellowship aptitudes which means compared to a noble astra telepathica mystic I have to pay more for my fellowship advances. This is what I do not like.

 

Ah, yes, of course, that makes no sense whatsoever. This is an issue with how Aptitudes are handed out, though. Not with the psyker pre-reqs. themselves.

The Aptitude-system is great, but it's not perfect, and handing Aptitudes out on a per-World basis is a terrible idea. Aptitudes represents a character's abilities and, well, aptitudes. To think that everyone that's a noble would somehow have Fellowship as an Aptitude is just.. ridiculous.

Aptitudes should've been doled primarily as a matter of Archetype, Career or Specialization (something DH2 does not employ). In DH2 it's just.. odd.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Fgdsfg

[cps 686]

You are both missing my point which I may not have articulated very well. I also agree with much of what you have both said.

 

What I was trying to get across is not the fact that there are pre-reqs but that if you want to be say a Telepath who doesn't incur a heavy xp cost for Fellowship your best bet is to take a noble homeworld as they get fellowship as an aptitude.

 

If I want to play a Feral worlder astra telepathica mystic I get neither social nor fellowship aptitudes which means compared to a noble astra telepathica mystic I have to pay more for my fellowship advances. This is what I do not like.

 

This is a flaw of the Aptitude system.  It's a bad system and this is just one of the reasons.

 

As far as what to do about it? Give players X Aptitudes for free so they can take the character generation options they want and not totally gimp their character. That'd be one way to do it.

[dava100 32]

 

You are both missing my point which I may not have articulated very well. I also agree with much of what you have both said.

 

What I was trying to get across is not the fact that there are pre-reqs but that if you want to be say a Telepath who doesn't incur a heavy xp cost for Fellowship your best bet is to take a noble homeworld as they get fellowship as an aptitude.

 

If I want to play a Feral worlder astra telepathica mystic I get neither social nor fellowship aptitudes which means compared to a noble astra telepathica mystic I have to pay more for my fellowship advances. This is what I do not like.

 

This is a flaw of the Aptitude system.  It's a bad system and this is just one of the reasons.

 

As far as what to do about it? Give players X Aptitudes for free so they can take the character generation options they want and not totally gimp their character. That'd be one way to do it.

 

I kinda like an aptitude system but not quite how it has been implemented in DH2. What I will probably do is give all PCs one free aptitude pick. This will also help other non optimal 'builds' but will of course also mean the 'best' builds aptitude wise will get even most versatility... Mmm 

Edited August 21, 2014 by dava100

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

You are both missing my point which I may not have articulated very well. I also agree with much of what you have both said.

 

What I was trying to get across is not the fact that there are pre-reqs but that if you want to be say a Telepath who doesn't incur a heavy xp cost for Fellowship your best bet is to take a noble homeworld as they get fellowship as an aptitude.

 

If I want to play a Feral worlder astra telepathica mystic I get neither social nor fellowship aptitudes which means compared to a noble astra telepathica mystic I have to pay more for my fellowship advances. This is what I do not like.

 

This is a flaw of the Aptitude system.  It's a bad system and this is just one of the reasons.

 

As far as what to do about it? Give players X Aptitudes for free so they can take the character generation options they want and not totally gimp their character. That'd be one way to do it.

I kinda like an aptitude system but not quite how it has been implemented in DH2. What I will probably do is give all PCs one free aptitude pick. This will also help other non optimal 'builds' but will of course also mean the 'best' builds aptitude wise will get even most versatility... Mmm

The way I always suggested working with Aptitudes in Only War was to allow everyone to switch 1 Characteristics Aptitude (Fellowship, Toughness, etc) and 1 Professional Aptitude (Social, Fieldcraft, etc) out for 1 Characteristics Aptitude and 1 Professional Aptitude, respectively.

Allowed for a lot of personal flexibility while maintaining the core.

Not sure how you'd make sense of it in DH2, but there you have it.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Fgdsfg

[dava100 32]

 

You are both missing my point which I may not have articulated very well. I also agree with much of what you have both said.

 

What I was trying to get across is not the fact that there are pre-reqs but that if you want to be say a Telepath who doesn't incur a heavy xp cost for Fellowship your best bet is to take a noble homeworld as they get fellowship as an aptitude.

 

If I want to play a Feral worlder astra telepathica mystic I get neither social nor fellowship aptitudes which means compared to a noble astra telepathica mystic I have to pay more for my fellowship advances. This is what I do not like.

 

Ah, yes, of course, that makes no sense whatsoever. This is an issue with how Aptitudes are handed out, though. Not with the psyker pre-reqs. themselves.

The Aptitude-system is great, but it's not perfect, and handing Aptitudes out on a per-World basis is a terrible idea. Aptitudes represents a character's abilities and, well, aptitudes. To think that everyone that's a noble would somehow have Fellowship as an Aptitude is just.. ridiculous.

Aptitudes should've been doled primarily as a matter of Archetype, Career or Specialization (something DH2 does not employ). In DH2 it's just.. odd.

 

An option would be to remove the aptitude you get for home worlds and give each PC 1 free stat aptitude pick. I like that better than giving PCs an extra free pick as per my idea above.

Edited August 21, 2014 by dava100

[dava100 32]

See here for my house rule http://community.fantasyflightgames.com/index.php?/topic/114278-home-world-aptitudes/

I am still thinking about aptitude options psykers as the home world aptitude is a change proposed for everyone.

Edited August 21, 2014 by dava100

[insanit 1]

Or you can pick a different role and spend 300 on the psyker elite advance to have aptitudes you'd find more useful.

[dava100 32]

Or you can pick a different role and spend 300 on the psyker elite advance to have aptitudes you'd find more useful.

I hadn't considered that. But it still leaves some home world choices better for some disciplines, such as nobles for telepathy and ferals for biomancy.

[Tom Cruise 1,278]

I kind of wish they'd put more emphasis into the idea of powers being based on things other than Willpower. Giving each discipline a different attribute to consider on top of Willpower would be pretty interesting.  Governing some Biomancy powers with Toughness, for example.

 

You kind of have to stretch the definitions of some characteristics to pull this off though.

Edited August 22, 2014 by Tom Cruise

[Brother Praetus 11]

"Note that if a during creation a character gains the same aptitude from different sources, he does not gain the aptitude twice.  He instead chooses and gains a Characteristic-based aptitude that he does not already have."
Dark Heresy Second Edition, page 79; Aptitudes.
 

This actually makes Psykers highly customizable.

Astra Telepathica characters pick either Defence or Psyker aptitudes.
Mystics get Defence automatically as an Aptitude; also gain the Psyker Elite Advance for free.

The Psyker Elite Advance gives the Psyker Aptitude automatically as an aptitude.

Since you have the chance to double up on EITHER the Defence or Psyker Aptitudes, you will get to pick a Characteristic-based Aptitude of your choice.  Also, if you are Astra Telepathica and start with the Psyker Elite Advance (either as a Mysitc or purchasing as a different Role) you begin with the Sanctioned trait (page 138) in all its majesty.
 

So, Psykers can be tailored to what powers the player is looking to develop from the get go.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Edited August 22, 2014 by Brother Praetus

[Nimsim 671]

I kind of wish they'd put more emphasis into the idea of powers being based on things other than Willpower. Giving each discipline a different attribute to consider on top of Willpower would be pretty interesting.  Governing some Biomancy powers with Toughness, for example.

 

You kind of have to stretch the definitions of some characteristics to pull this off though.

I'd go with Biomancy:Toughness, Pyromancy:Strength, Telekinesis:Intelligence, Divination:Perception, Telepathy:Fellowship. This just leaves out Agility, which is already an important stat for psykers to dodge things.

[Tom Cruise 1,278]

Yeah, that's almost definitely the same spread I'd go with, but it's still stretching the definitions of the characteristics pretty far beyond what's written in the book. Personally I'm all for that, but I know it's not something that'll suit everyone.

[Fgdsfg 1,017]

I kind of wish they'd put more emphasis into the idea of powers being based on things other than Willpower. Giving each discipline a different attribute to consider on top of Willpower would be pretty interesting.  Governing some Biomancy powers with Toughness, for example.

 

You kind of have to stretch the definitions of some characteristics to pull this off though.

I'd go with Biomancy:Toughness, Pyromancy:Strength, Telekinesis:Intelligence, Divination:Perception, Telepathy:Fellowship. This just leaves out Agility, which is already an important stat for psykers to dodge things.

I'm fine with all of those except Pyromancy. I have no idea how Pyromancy would be dependant on Strength.

Instead of blanket associations, I would simply have different powers have different prereqs. For example, while most Telekinesis powers could have Intelligence as part of it's prereqs., the more simple powers would simply be Willpower. Some Telekinesis would definitely have Ballistic Skill, because you essentially "shoot" with your telekinetics.

I'd also re-introduce Disciplines, so that sanctioned psykers can't cherry-pick across the entire board. At the very least, they'd have to spend more experience to take cross-Discipline powers.

I have some ideas that I really need to write down...

[Nimsim 671]

Pyromancy is the brute force power used to destroy things physically, so I felt like strength was a good fit.

[Objulen 6]

Since Psykers generally syngerize well with Intelligence and Perception/Psyniscience, using these as prerequisites instead can be helpful in getting a Psyker to branch out a bit without creating an xp-sink. 

[Dan_of_Hats 16]

I recently rolled up a psyker character for a DH2 game, and while I've only played one session thus far, I have to say that I have no real issue with the choice to have attribute pre-requisites for certain powers beyond just Willpower. In fact, I rather like it; yes, it encourages specialism, but the entirety of character creation seems to want player groups to figure out early on just what it is they want a character to be doing in the party; are you an investigator? A melee fighter? A ranged sniper? I don't see why psychic powers should be any different in that regard, rather than having access to a wide range of different abilities and getting to pick and choose as you please. Sure, it's more expensive to branch out into something different later on, but the same is true of a combative character who wants to learn some Lore skills to round themselves out.

 

Personally, I was very happy with the build I went for; a Feral World / Adeptus Astra Telepathica / Warrior that gave me plenty of physical capability right out the gate, with a clear focus in Biomancy but a secondary spread leaning towards Divination. It's early days yet for sure, but with a little time and experience the character will be able to throw down in melee combat with the best of them (currently I believe he's currently the most proficient in close quarters out of the team he's in), and also be able to help in investigations using Divination. Down the line he might stretch out a little into Pyromancy, especially Molten Beam and Fire Shield, but he's unlikely to every have much skill at Telekinesis or Telepathy due to his build. I don't consider him a particular weak character because he has a clear specialism, nor do I feel like I was in any way unfairly penalized due to the choices I made in creating him.

 

Of course, this is a personal opinion, and people should always feel at liberty to house-rule within their own playgroups if they feel something doesn't work for them. To be honest though, I don't see the group I'm part of having to change it much; in fact, I'd much rather see some of the powers requiring high Psy Ratings switched for reasonably high characteristic pre-reqs, given how expensive Psy Rating can be to obtain I feel it makes for a poor barrier of entry to access certain powers.

[Gridash 353]

The way I always suggested working with Aptitudes in Only War was to allow everyone to switch 1 Characteristics Aptitude (Fellowship, Toughness, etc) and 1 Professional Aptitude (Social, Fieldcraft, etc) out for 1 Characteristics Aptitude and 1 Professional Aptitude, respectively.

Allowed for a lot of personal flexibility while maintaining the core.

Not sure how you'd make sense of it in DH2, but there you have it.

 

Excellent idea there. 

[insanit 1]

If you have the free reign to re-pick aptitudes like that it makes things way too easy to get Social, Fieldcraft, and Knowledge on a character and get cheep advances for just about every skill.