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Gridash

Gray Jedi

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First of, my knowledge of the star wars RPG rules is basic at best since I didn't have the chance yet to play in any sessions yet.

 

I'm wondering if force users are supposed to go to one of the extremes of the force eventually (light or dark side) or if something inbetween is also a viable option, like a "gray jedi".

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

Edited by Gridash

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Well, there's boosts to being a proper lightsider (extra LS destiny point I think and perhaps increased strain?), and penalties to being consumed by the dark side (strain penalty, and flip one LS destiny point to DS at start of session), but staying in between you gain or lose nothing.

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Well a true "Grey Jedi" under this system would be able to use dark side pips and light side pips on the Force die without any consequence, since the whole point was that they weren't tied to the light side/dark side split the way that true Jedi were.  Which in this system would be too powerful since it assures that your Force powers will always have an effect, no matter what you roll.

 

Players in this system are by default "light side" Force users since they can only use the light side pips from their Force dice, and suffer a penalty (flipped Destiny Point, strain damage, and increased Conflict) when they use dark side pips.

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I'd not say "big shortcoming," it's a balance issue. If the whole idea is as DM says, that the Grey Jedi shouldn't be penalised for using dark side power or dark side pips, there should be some balancing factor - like for instance always taking strain when using force powers, perhaps not per force pip, but a set amount? or up to a certain amount? Perhaps always require the expenditure of a destiny point? or some such thing.

 

Whether light, grey or dark, there are benefits and drawbacks; and by the very nature of how the force so far has been portrayed in canon material, the "light" side doesn't really exist, although there is a dark side. The dark side twists, perverts and destroys - whereas the Force itself is life, life giving, life nurturing and so on. In this case no "grey" version needs to exist, there is only a question of whether or not you're a Paragon of the Force, a user of the force, or consumed by the Dark Side. Both the paragon and the user are so-called "light siders", that is they are not corrupted by the dark side, but the user need not be a determined follower of the "light" or the force as such, but can have a very utilitarian and balanced (i.e. "grey") outlook on the whole thing. A part of seeking this balance is to recognise the need to atonement when your morality (or principles) are declining/worsening (broken), whereas there is no fear for doing what is "right," i.e. Harm someone with the force if necessary, but you'd still earn Conflict (and strain if applicable) and the atonement for this later on should be part of the "grey" idea, the seeking of balance, harmony - an ultimately "light side" thing, as it is what the Force itself seeks.

 

So, looking at it like this I think a "Grey Jedi" is perfectly possible, there's no need for mechanical benefits or advantages, the mechanisms as presented and how I understand them opens for this possibility. It's not so much good vs evil, but life vs death/destruction, where the Force is life, and the Dark Side is death (or destruction).

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Well a true "Grey Jedi" under this system would be able to use dark side pips and light side pips on the Force die without any consequence, since the whole point was that they weren't tied to the light side/dark side split the way that true Jedi were.

I think they would still be tied to using the pips like a light-sider to avoid the corrupting influence of the dark side. I don't think being a Grey Jedi means using the dark side whenever you want or seeing how close to the edge you can dance. If Qui Gon was a Grey Jedi, it's not because he used the dark side, he simply walked a slightly edgier moral path, followed his own instincts, and wasn't afraid to defy the Council. I'm not sure the Morality mechanic needs to account for Grey Jedi at all, that's just a narrative thing.

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I think being a gray jedi means doing a balance of light snd dark stuff. Walking that line down the middle, neither straying too far into the light or dark. Something which I think sounds represented in the system. Since even a gray jedi can become dark if they use too much of the dsrk side or vice versa.

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It's maybe a different discussion, but we've decided on a simplified system that allows any Force-user to flip between light and dark, with neither being intrinsically good or evil.  We've only played one session, but it seems okay so far. It doesn't always give the 'best of both worlds' but it does allow for balance.

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I would assume that a 'gray Jedi' in this system is represented by trying to stay close to the 50 mark of morality - say between 45 and 55. If you needed a 'bonus' for this - say gray paragon - maybe simply add one destiny point to the starting pool *opposite* what you rolled on the Force Die - or add one of whichever winds up fewer at start to represent a 'balancing' of light and dark.

 

I think that narratively the point of it is to avoid extremes; not burning down orphanages (including orphans) to build room for an animal hospital, to take extreme examples. Your character would probably still rather see the Light side wind up triumphant, but you wouldn't be compelled to stop every mugging you saw in an alleyway.

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I would assume that a 'gray Jedi' in this system is represented by trying to stay close to the 50 mark of morality

 

I think this is a fundamental misconception, and is similar to what DM said above.  Being Grey doesn't mean "50% morally dark", it simply doesn't map to that scale at all.  They are separate things.  I'd say it's more about viewing the universe in less stark terms, perhaps even better understanding the realities and complexities of the Living Force.  Qui Gon is the classic "Grey Jedi", and it's no accident he was the first to retain consciousness after death.  I'd even go so far as to say that Yoda makes the transition to Grey Jedi at the end of TCW season 6.  Until then he was blinded by the dark because his focus was too narrow, traditions too fossilized, and that was why the Jedi were losing.

 

But this has nothing at all to do with the Morality mechanic.  The Jedi Order perhaps needed more Grey Jedi, but not more immoral Jedi.

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First of, my knowledge of the star wars RPG rules is basic at best since I didn't have the chance yet to play in any sessions yet.

 

I'm wondering if force users are supposed to go to one of the extremes of the force eventually (light or dark side) or if something inbetween is also a viable option, like a "gray jedi".

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gray_Jedi

On my phone, so will make this short. "Gray Jedi" can mean different things, and can be a political designation or a philosophy. But yeah, you can play a Gray Jedi.

Also, the only Force Power restrictions I've seen are that Dark Siders csn't use Force Heal, and can't use Protect on other people.

Edited by RedfordBlade

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RAW rules (RAWR.  lol) specify that you are either a good guy or a bad guy.  Now, you can be REALLY good or REALLY bad, but there is no middle ground.  There's no benefit to hovering at the 50 points of Morality like walking the razor edge of a blade.  Sure, you could House Rule it, but how can you make it truly balanced?  How can you make it work when your players could viably use White or Black pips on every roll?

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I've always despised the concept of grey Jedi as it seems to come up in games mostly so people can try to use Force Lightning/Force choke/etc and not be evil. I suppose you could try to maintain that balance but frankly, I have always thought of grey Jedi as Jedi who haven't fallen to the Darkside but are starting to dabble in it. In other words, a transitional state from Jedi to dark Jedi. This is somewhat supported in the EU as Jacen Solo was a Grey Jedi (in all but name) after the YV wars but became a pretty terrible Sith Lord not too long afterwards.

 

Now, that said, it's your game table and do as you wish.

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Can you play a partially-redeemed Darksider as a "grey jedi?" Acting as moral paragon... but spending those darkside pips to stay out of the heroic redemption area. Meanwhile having all the darkside powers at your command.

 

EDIT: yes,  a Grey Jedi is someone between 30 and 70 morality who uses the dark force pips- paragon enough not to take the strain penalty, renagade enough to have more reliable powers.

Edited by Rakaydos

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I'd say that being grey is more an outlook than anything else, and a willingness to employ the dark side when it seems appropriate, while trying not to fall too far under its seduction. In F&D, that would be being willing to use black pips on occasion, and possibly even a dark sided Force power now and then, but striving to balance out those Conflict-generating actions with some more light sided behavior. More often, I think it would simply come out in a desire to let nature take its course much of the time, to mete out justice when called for (even if it's harsh), to allow people to make their own mistakes and learn from them (or not), etc...

 

Someone trying to be a paragon of the light side of the Force won't be taking actions like that, unless they are desperate, and that's how the dark side pulls people down. A dark sider wouldn't care about doing something good to balance things, and wouldn't be willing to allow nature to take its course if that course is opposed to their own will. 

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You can absolutely be a gray jedi type of character in this system if you so wish. Using the dark side taxes the body, you suffer strain like anyone else, but since you don't have the goal of advancing your morality toward light side paragon, you don't have to worry about generating 5-15 conflict or so per session by calling on the Dark Side to power up your force powers. In a way, giving your character this kind of freedom does power them up, as you'll have about 5-15 extra force pips per session to draw on before you start worrying about going too far out of balance toward the dark side.

As a GM, if you really wanted to house rule something for this (and I wouldn't at my table) you could encourage this behavior by giving them a gray jedi talent of some kind that removes 1 conflict at the end of a session per rank, or equal to willpower. This would give them a few more consequence free dark side pips. I would only do this if it was a major theme of a campaign, but it's a simple enough thing to implement if the whole Gray Jedi thing is your jam.

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I am beginning a game this evening which will be based approximately 55 years ABY.  At least a few of the characters will be playing Imperial Knights of the Fel Empire.  One of them wants to play a Grey Force user.  Here is what I have come up with:

 

1. The force user is able to use the darkside version of force powers (ie. Harm) without gaining conflict, however the player must justify the use narrative, proving that he is only doing so as a last resort and is not out of fear, hatred or as an evil act. 

 

2.  Anytime the character generates conflict, the total conflict is automatically doubled, representing the character balancing the fine line that he is walking (ie. use a dark side pip, gain 2 conflict instead of 1.  Murder someone? Gain 20+ conflict)

 

This is just the start of the what we are doing, but the rest will shake out as we play.

Edited by Meltheran

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While I agree with this:

I always HATED the concept of "Grey Jedi". The whole point is that Star Wars is a morality tale, smugglers and bounty hunters can be "grey", force users — not so much IMO. 

 

I also agree with this:

I didn't mind Jolee Bindo - he was a crochety old man who also happened to be powerful in the Force. His 'grey'ness more felt like an opting-out of the religion moreso than personal approval to do whatever he felt was right.

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