Using Discipline to modify a lightsaber crystal

[Doc, the Weasel 1,777]

Maybe it's the hilt that should have all the mods (or attachments that add damage and so forth) and the crystal just provides the baseline. 

 

... this probably warrants its own thread.

[Thebearisdriving 312]

@jedi Ronin

 

I can't quote anyone (I think there is something fundamentally wrong with my browser).

 

So when you say, "It's a sci-fi setting, so interacting with technology is normal"  what exactly do you think he was going to do with those power converters?  Plug them in and convert power?

 

Now, this is simply speculation, but I feel like that's the equivalent today of saying, "But uncle Lars, I was going to go to spanaway and pick up this intercooler that some guy is selling on craigslist!"

 

So he could soup up his speeder. 

 

Regarding obi-wan, I couldn't wander into a command center on a military base and target a specific system to sabotage so that they wouldn't notice.  I could definitely destroy some equipment, but they'd notice.  And I'm fairly tech savvy. I think what Obi-wan did shows true skill, that he did it unnoticed, and that he had no real familiarity with the type of installation.

 

Of course, that's mostly opinion and speculation, but my primary point is that we see more technologically minded main characters than not in the films and TV series.  And since we have no evidence for or against the idea that mechanical skills helps you upgrade a saber (or that sabers can be upgraded at all), I feel that adding a potential free ride to force users because of "special journey" and mystical swords is just not sound game design.  I would like there to be a game mechanic that does encourage this "special journey" (say splitting the crystal and emitter, so you get a fair variety in what upgrades can be performed with what skills), but a whole cloth substitution, or even a partial substitution is inappropriate IMO.  although, a partial sub would be a decent middle ground.  still places too much power in the discipline skill (which is already used to recover strain, resist basically all social interactions, and upgrades force powers), but none of this is the end of the world.

Edited September 17, 2014 by Thebearisdriving

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Maybe it's the hilt that should have all the mods (or attachments that add damage and so forth) and the crystal just provides the baseline. 

 

... this probably warrants its own thread.

I'd rather that FFG not got that particular route, as it starts treading towards the path that KOTOR2 did with having all sorts of emiiters, lenses, power cells, and what-nots to modify one's lightsaber.  Which is fine for a video game (since it provides various rewards for the player to discover or unlock), but not so much for a table-top RPG.

 

I think sticking with just modifying the crystal is the best option for having the option to modify a lightsaber.  If nothing else, it helps cut down on the classic D&D mindset of "my character is defined by their gear" in regards to magical items, though I do give credit to 4e for including an option to provide the various expected bonuses without requiring magic items (was introduced in the 2nd DMG and appropriately used for the Dark Sun Campaign Guide).  And with it being the crystal, you then have instances where if the lightsaber is destroyed (currently requires two Triumph to do, but is doable), you have the option to salvage the crystal and retain any modifications made to it.  Where if it was indeed the hilt that was modified, if that gets destroyed then you're SOL.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

@jedi Ronin

 

I can't quote anyone (I think there is something fundamentally wrong with my browser).

It's not your browser.  I've tried a couple different ones, and the quoting system used by these message boards is rather screwy, particularly if you're trying to remove other people's imbedded quotes.

[evileeyore 454]

And with it being the crystal, you then have instances where if the lightsaber is destroyed (currently requires two Triumph to do, but is doable), you have the option to salvage the crystal and retain any modifications made to it.

I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

 

And with it being the crystal, you then have instances where if the lightsaber is destroyed (currently requires two Triumph to do, but is doable), you have the option to salvage the crystal and retain any modifications made to it.

I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

 

Reread the Beta Updates, under the Chapter VI: Conflict and Combat header.  Specifically, the change for Table 6-2, as it adds a sentence at the very end that outright says "with any modifications intact" in referring to the salvaged lightsaber crystal from a destroyed lightsaber.

 

Pretty **** clear that is how it's supposed to work.

[Lathrop 838]

 

And with it being the crystal, you then have instances where if the lightsaber is destroyed (currently requires two Triumph to do, but is doable), you have the option to salvage the crystal and retain any modifications made to it.

I don't think it's supposed to work that way.

 

 

Was added in the Beta Updates.

[evileeyore 454]

Was added in the Beta Updates.

Huh.

Yup I went back and reread that. I strongly disagree, unless everyone can remove Attachments and keep the mods intact on the Attachment.

[Sparx MacGyver 11]

 

Was added in the Beta Updates.

Huh.

Yup I went back and reread that. I strongly disagree, unless everyone can remove Attachments and keep the mods intact on the Attachment.

 

I could see that being reasonable. If my rifle is destroyed, why couldn't I salvage the Scope or other attachment? That might be one of the few house-rules I use depending on how the final product is done.

[evileeyore 454]

Personally I'm fine with allowing the possibility of the crystal being salvaged, but losing the mods.

[bradknowles 4,449]

And with it being the crystal, you then have instances where if the lightsaber is destroyed (currently requires two Triumph to do, but is doable), you have the option to salvage the crystal and retain any modifications made to it.  Where if it was indeed the hilt that was modified, if that gets destroyed then you're SOL.

I think that’s actually a quite reasonable trade-off.

Do you want to make the mods mechanically and to the hilt (where they can be lost if the hilt is destroyed)? Or, do you want to make them using the Force and on the crystal itself, and if the hilt is destroyed then mods aren’t also destroyed?

I think the player should be able to make this choice.

[Jedi Ronin 1,588]

@jedi Ronin

 

I can't quote anyone (I think there is something fundamentally wrong with my browser).

 

So when you say, "It's a sci-fi setting, so interacting with technology is normal"  what exactly do you think he was going to do with those power converters?  Plug them in and convert power?

 

Now, this is simply speculation, but I feel like that's the equivalent today of saying, "But uncle Lars, I was going to go to spanaway and pick up this intercooler that some guy is selling on craigslist!"

 

So he could soup up his speeder. 

 

Regarding obi-wan, I couldn't wander into a command center on a military base and target a specific system to sabotage so that they wouldn't notice.  I could definitely destroy some equipment, but they'd notice.  And I'm fairly tech savvy. I think what Obi-wan did shows true skill, that he did it unnoticed, and that he had no real familiarity with the type of installation.

 

Of course, that's mostly opinion and speculation, but my primary point is that we see more technologically minded main characters than not in the films and TV series.  And since we have no evidence for or against the idea that mechanical skills helps you upgrade a saber (or that sabers can be upgraded at all), I feel that adding a potential free ride to force users because of "special journey" and mystical swords is just not sound game design.  I would like there to be a game mechanic that does encourage this "special journey" (say splitting the crystal and emitter, so you get a fair variety in what upgrades can be performed with what skills), but a whole cloth substitution, or even a partial substitution is inappropriate IMO.  although, a partial sub would be a decent middle ground.  still places too much power in the discipline skill (which is already used to recover strain, resist basically all social interactions, and upgrades force powers), but none of this is the end of the world.

 

Didn't R2 show Obi-wan where to go?

And the more impressive part of this isn't that Obi-wan knew which flip to switch after R2 showed him but that the route through the death star flew by and Obi-wan could remember the way to get there - and that he could get somewhere else on the size of a small moon in what seemed like at most an hour walking down hallways.  That's Star Wars.  That's what happens when R2 rolls a Triumph.

 

I don't even know what a power converter is.  Maybe the EU defined it - I don't follow the EU much - so we may have different assumptions about what that means.

 

But say for the sake of argument that Luke has a rank or two of Mechanics as he tinkers with stuff.  Ok, he's still a long way off from being able to succeed at the more difficult mod checks.

And I don't see Jedi in general in the movies portrayed as being mechanical tinkerers (meaning a rank or two of Mechanics) much less mechanics masters.

 

I'd also disagree that it's a free ride for a "special journey".  A Jedi character would have to throw lots of points into Discipline to pull off the harder checks - which for the more force focused builds is more synergistic but not necessarily for those focusing primarily on the lightsaber.  Also, they can only mod this one device with the skill, whereas someone who has put a lot of points into being good at Mechanics can apply their expertise simultaneously on a broader range of devices.

 

But I also don't think this is that big of a deal.  You don't need a check to use the basic attachments and GMs are free to allow access to the more difficult mods or better crystals etc through game play and role-play etc as it's typically been done in RPGs before this.  The basic attachments still give the feel of a Jedi constructing his own lightsaber without any special training.

[Doc, the Weasel 1,777]

 

And with it being the crystal, you then have instances where if the lightsaber is destroyed (currently requires two Triumph to do, but is doable), you have the option to salvage the crystal and retain any modifications made to it.  Where if it was indeed the hilt that was modified, if that gets destroyed then you're SOL.

I think that’s actually a quite reasonable trade-off.

Do you want to make the mods mechanically and to the hilt (where they can be lost if the hilt is destroyed)? Or, do you want to make them using the Force and on the crystal itself, and if the hilt is destroyed then mods aren’t also destroyed?

I think the player should be able to make this choice.

 

I think the compelling argument on why not to mod the crystal isn't in destruction of the weapon, but in the permanence of failed mod rolls. Fail at upping damage to your crystal, you have to find a new crystal if you want more damage.

[Tanarri 144]

After reading the whole thread here are my thoughts. The system as is is simple and comprehensive even if it being all a mechanics check makes it a little less fluffy. I feel  2 checks could solve the fluff issue, it would feel a little more thematic, though a little more complicated. 1 to attune the crystal willpower/discipline check with boost die based on force rating, and the second to mod the mechanical part of the the saber. I haven't yet had a shot to playtest the beta ,our group might start this weekend, so I am not quite sure what bonuses you should get for which.

 

Also even though I really liked the saber mod options and system for KoToR I think we should stay away from that. KoToR was designed based off of the D20 system and so it works great in that atmosphere, however I think we should stay far away from D20 aspects due to how this game is designed, (I am not going to be able to say the next part right so try just to think  what I mean to say) I think it would lessen the spirit of this system which is hyper focused on roleplaying to make things D20 like when that system has such a different feel, focus, and spirit to it.

 

Well those are my thoughts.

[Daeglan 5,950]

What if in breaking up the mods to crystal, hilt, emitter. One could use Discipline to mod the crystal.  Keep the mods for the emitter and hilt small in number and based on mechanics. So totally doable by a Jedi not focused in mechanics. And the crystal can have a few more

[evileeyore 454]

KoToR was designed based off of the D20 system...

However the Saber modding in KotOR had nothing to do with the d20 system. At all. In anyway.

It was because: "videogame".

[Thebearisdriving 312]

And because:"Lootz".

 

I want to really bring people's attention to the first two paragraphs of the Lightsabber modification section of the beta.  The Devs essentially spell out that a lightsaber is NOT a mystic sword, is not a magical tool, it is a technological device like anything else (save that it is rooted in rakatan technology, like the hyperdrives).

 

I'm not trying to shut down any further discussion, but I think in having that discussion, it's important to take the game writers words into account.

[Tanarri 144]

@Daeglan

I think just 2 pieces is enough one to represent the crystal and another to represent everything else.

 

@evileeyore

You are right that saber modding wasn't in the D20 system though magically enhancing a magic item so a single ring had +5 all stats was. With KoToR they used the D20 system to base everything off of then made it start wars. It's off topic and not productive to go into any further.

 

@ Thebearisdriving

While that is true and I am fine with that being the case and staying the case. Many EU sources have had force users attuning the crystal which thematically should differ from a mechanics check. Though to be honest I feel most of the upgrades should come from a mechanics check I just beleive that you should have some attuning to be done that has some actual effect on the light saber.

[Thebearisdriving 312]

Not only in this thread, but also in Doc, The weasel's thread about decoupling crystals and upgrades, are there a couple different suggestions on how this could be approached.  I'd check out that thread too, if you haven't already.

[Jedi Ronin 1,588]

 

KoToR was designed based off of the D20 system...

However the Saber modding in KotOR had nothing to do with the d20 system. At all. In anyway.

It was because: "videogame".

 

 

And RPGs have modifiable equipment for exactly the same reason.

 

As Dono mentioned above it's a way to provide rewards to players or to provide a type of path for character ability progression.

I'm not saying it needs to take the exact form a video game took but the reasons the video game developed this aspect of the game is certainly valid in tabletop RPGs.

FFG has provided mods for equipment other than lightsabers so this is providing Jedi with the same tools and mechanics as they did other character archetypes.

 

If you don't like the idea that lightsabers can be modified in this way you're not forced to use the system.  As a GM you (or your GM) can easily just provide access to equipment in the game where they just provide basic equipment and/or use the mod system to provide better equipment as the story progresses.  The GM can also just provide players with the pieces that go into making a lightsaber - crystal, hilt, emitter that have already had optional mods "installed" on them and the player can just assemble the device with no check (e.g., installing a crystal doesn't require a check) allowing the Jedi to build their own lightsaber.

Players don't need to use the mod system.

[Daeglan 5,950]

@Daeglan

I think just 2 pieces is enough one to represent the crystal and another to represent everything else.

 

@evileeyore

You are right that saber modding wasn't in the D20 system though magically enhancing a magic item so a single ring had +5 all stats was. With KoToR they used the D20 system to base everything off of then made it start wars. It's off topic and not productive to go into any further.

 

@ Thebearisdriving

While that is true and I am fine with that being the case and staying the case. Many EU sources have had force users attuning the crystal which thematically should differ from a mechanics check. Though to be honest I feel most of the upgrades should come from a mechanics check I just beleive that you should have some attuning to be done that has some actual effect on the light saber.

Well the hilt mods are things like curved hilt, superior hilt modification, long hilt 

[Donovan Morningfire 10,200]

Yeah, I'd suggest going with leaving the hilt modifications for just the different styles of hilts as Daeglan listed (curved, extended, superior).

[Daeglan 5,950]

Yeah, I'd suggest going with leaving the hilt modifications for just the different styles of hilts as Daeglan listed (curved, extended, superior).

Exactly

You should have a hilt. It can take 3 types of mods. Crystal, Emitter, hilt mods. 

Hilt Mods are the curved hilt, extended hilt, superior

Crystal and emitter I think are fine as stated.  

[Lepton Halfspin 9]

Considering that F&D era Force Users are only aspiring Jedi, and the examples of lightsaber modifications are all made by trained Jedi and Sith, I would expect a characters to invest into Artisan if they wanted to become proficient at lightsaber modification.

 

I would certainly consider Anikin, Luke and Obi-wan to be high level Jedi with Talents in multiple Specialisations including Artisan.

 

 

The only change I would consider to the Beta book would be to replace the 10XP Solid Repairs talent with an Inventor talent.

 

This would allow a low cost option for splash investment into Artisan, with a tempting choice to pursue Imbue Item > Inventor.

 

Possible change to Artisan Specialization

 

Edited September 20, 2014 by Lepton Halfspin

[evileeyore 454]

I would certainly consider Anikin, Luke and Obi-wan to be high level Jedi with Talents in multiple Specialisations including Artisan.

Or, shock and gasp, maybe they're just using base Lightsabers?