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Donovan Morningfire

Using Discipline to modify a lightsaber crystal

201 posts in this topic

Under the current rules, a Force user that wants to modify the crystal attachment in their lightsaber has to use Mechanics the same as they would to modify a regular attachment.

 

I propose that Force user be allowed to substitute Discipline for Mechanics when rolling to modify a lightsaber crystal attachment.  It plays into a Jedi's construction of a lightsaber being less about mechanical ability and more of a spiritual thing, attuning the crystal so that the lightsaber becomes less a weapon and more an extension of the Jedi's self.

 

As a possible addition, when it comes to modifying a lightsaber crystal, allow the Force user to add one boost die per rank of Force Rating they possess; so a PC with Force Rating 2 would add two boost dice to their Discipline pool when trying to modify their lightsaber's crystal, but said boost dice wouldn't apply if they were trying to modify an Extended Hilt attachment, which would be a Mechanics check.

 

Edit: The intent of the above was that It should be that only the person that's doing the modification can use Discipline to modify a lightsaber crystal; you can't hand your 'saber off to another PC and let them use their superior Discipline.  This might be too much bother to track for this system though.

Edited by Donovan Morningfire

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Something to consider is also requiring the expenditure of a Destiny Point. It fits thematically and serves as a balance.

Edited by Gigerstreak

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Great, nay FANTASTIC idea about discipline!

 

I would also suggest that the force user has to modify it himself, no paying someone else to do it for you unlike modding other items.

 

Don't think I like the idea of force rating = boost die tho.  Maybe, just maybe, roll the force dice with the check and use force points for successes?  Oh, and pity the light-sider that used dark side points to mod his lightsaber.  I'd rule that it was forever tainted with the dark side and created conflict each time it was used. :D

 

The idea of spending a destiny point to mod a crystal isn't a good one in my opinion, as you couldn't even attempt a 4th modification (an impossible task) as you would have spent a destiny point that action already.

progressions, whafrog and 2P51 like this

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I like that idea!

 

My alternative to the force rating boosts would be adding boosts per rank in the lightsaber skill. Showing that you know the ins and outs of the weapon.

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Yeah, the intent is that in order to use Discipline, you have to be the one doing it, since it's your crystal.

 

As for the boost dice, part of that is predicated upon old EU/Legends lore that a Jedi Master could build a lightsaber in as little as two days if pressed for time.  I do like the notion of using ranks in Lightsaber to determine the number of boost dice granted though, and it does make more sense than using Force Rating.

OB-1, Split Light and Scalding like this

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Alternatively, if the Dev's feel this breaks the game, they should at least put it in a sidebar as an optional rule, even if it's just as a skill substitution.

Edited by Lorne
Donovan Morningfire likes this

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If going for boost dice, I'd not fill the pool based on FR or skill ranks, that to me seems to beat the purpose of this system. Perhaps one boost die if already ranks in Lightsaber, and one boost die for being force sensitive? Otherwise we'd see a pool that in the end would have more boost dice than anything else, easily 3-5 from ranks in Lightsaber and easily 1-3 from FR. That's just silly in my opinion.

 

Gaining boost dice from LS/SP pips might work, but I'd limit it to 1 boost die per 2 pips.

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If going for boost dice, I'd not fill the pool based on FR or skill ranks, that to me seems to beat the purpose of this system. Perhaps one boost die if already ranks in Lightsaber, and one boost die for being force sensitive? Otherwise we'd see a pool that in the end would have more boost dice than anything else, easily 3-5 from ranks in Lightsaber and easily 1-3 from FR. That's just silly in my opinion.

 

Gaining boost dice from LS/SP pips might work, but I'd limit it to 1 boost die per 2 pips.

I agree.

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I was thinking this as well!

 

Considering that focus and visualization that has always been part of the whole experience. And  the boost dice from Force points works as well, with perhaps even having every 2 dark side points equal a Setback die, to indicate a failure to focus.

 

However, I think that the character needs at least 1 rank in the Lightsaber skill to even be able to perform this.

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While I understand the desire to have discipline contribute to the atunement/improvement of LS crystals,  I would not like to see it become a default skill for modifying LS crystals.

 

I feel like this is important for two reasons.

 

First, it takes away from tech savvy specializations such as the artisan.  Since especially F&D is a force using and LS oriented module, the artisan's milieu and niche provide it with an edge and place in a group.  To allow discipline to supplant mechanics in this way takes away from this and similar specializations.

 

Second, this makes discipline an even bigger power skill/no brainer/vanilla skill than it already is.  Any significant force user is going to have disciplines routinely in the 5 range.  so they will all be masterful lightsaber crafters and no variety is possible, no reason to not pump discipline will exist.  With Mechanics as the key skill (and intellect as the stat) this will actually provide variety and a need for choice, as investing in a single skill/stat does not provide everything that you could want.

 

What I would like to see, and I would find interesting, is to allow discipline to be used, with a corresponding increase/upgrade in difficulty. An example of this would be tha tthe difficulty to upgrade would be increased by 1 as a default, and then upgraded for each previous mod on the crystal.

 

Thus, to use discipline to get 4 damage upgrades on an ilum crystal would be a monumental acheivement, and one that caries risk.  

 

It would also be nice to see a rule that make non-FR characters less capable at modifying LS crystals.  The best medium IMO would be that to properly mod a crystal, you need to be force sensitive, but also actually have the skill and knowledge invested in upgrades that they are the best at it.

 

My opinion of course, and obviously not the majority one.  Take it as you will.

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It's not a bad idea, but I think that we do need to consider that it will encourage the mono-demensional character.

 

By that I mean it will encourage folks to dump everything into Willpower and Discipline so that you can pwnanate with maximum Force-itude. While Jedi masters are described as being able to assemble a lightsaber rapidly, it is the more techie types who are able to get the max performance out of them.

 

Maybe a Mechanics (Willpower) test or Lightsaber (Intellect)? I feel like those better indicate a lightsaber is a blending of the Force and Tech.

Snakesandsuns and EldritchFire like this

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As a person who intends to take a Mechanic/Slicer character from a short-lived EotE game, make her force sensitive, slap on Artisan, and roll her up in a F&D game; here's my 2 somewhat biased credits.

I agree with the above posters on the fact that mechanically, making discipline EVEN more amazing for a force user, is a bad idea. I hate when mechanics trump realisim (though without sound mechanics the foundation of our imaginary reality crumble), but the way I see it follows what I thought when I first considered using my tech character in a F&D game.

The crafting of a saber by a Force User is a special bond, it forms the identity of the saber and to a lesser degree, the search for the saber can help form the identity of the user. I was initially put off by the use of Mechanics in lightsaber construction, despite that being my characters highest stat; for many of the previously mentioned reasons. I almost rolled up a different concept, but I realized that it still fits... Héres why

1) My Artisan was obsessed with new tech before she was aware of her force sensitive nature. If she came across a lightsaber she'd want to take it apart and learn how to perfect it. An Artisan by the nature of the class will have a better understanding of tech, at the expense of combat ability, I tend to think they should be able to construct superior lightsabers to mitigate that loss of smack down.

2) Though it might seem out of theme for someone to have a momentous personal moment crafting their legacy, only to hand it off to someone else and say "gimmie more damage and lower crit.. Oh and check the oil while your at it" I envision it either as the crafter having the "saber specialist" on hand during the crafting giving counsel and guiding them, or my plan for my character is to point out to fellow PCs: "You may have perfectly bound your essence to the blade, but that doesn't mean that you lined the crystal perfectly up with distribution lens and the slight off-hum of the blade is going to drive me crazy! Allow me to make the technical side of the blade match the purity of your bonding... Trust me, you can sense your connection to the force.. It won't diminish, if anything I'll make your ummm technical failings interfere less with your POWERful force technique ;P" (yes my character has Pride/Arrogance)

3) I KNOW at least one of my fellow PCs (talking to u Remi) will adamantly refuse to take any assistance in modding his lightsabers even though he will have no mechanics, and even though I could do it months after he crafts it.. He will accept the fact that his blade does 2 less damage, and he needs one more advantage to crit than everyone else. He'll still murder things pretty well.. Truthfully that guy will likely be more terrifying then the rest of the party, somehow he manages to rule the day despite (because?) His purist ways in all things. The mods don't make the blade.

Thanks for following my rambling, hope I was coherent.. 16 hr day, too few employees, too many customers, mostly empty bottle.

I love this game.

kaosoe and EldritchFire like this

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Alternatively, if the Dev's feel this breaks the game, they should at least put it in a sidebar as an optional rule, even if it's just as a skill substitution.

Well, when I pitched the idea to Sam at GenCon, part of the pitch was that the character had the option of using either Discipline or Mechanics to upgrade their lightsaber's crystal.

 

I'm putting together a feedback report, and I'm making sure to include that my idea is for an "either/or" situation.

Alderaan Crumbs, Lorne and TedMaul like this

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It's not a bad idea, but I think that we do need to consider that it will encourage the mono-demensional character.

 

By that I mean it will encourage folks to dump everything into Willpower and Discipline so that you can pwnanate with maximum Force-itude. While Jedi masters are described as being able to assemble a lightsaber rapidly, it is the more techie types who are able to get the max performance out of them.

 

Couldn't agree more !

 

Using Discipline to mod (not build, MOD) would make Discipline the go-to skill for any type of Force user. It's not good for the variety of the game.

 

Arguments about Discipline are mostly based on lightsaber construction. Yes, we see jedis assemble sabers with their mind. So what ? Doesn't mean it's how they make their lightsabers super efficient by tinkering them. In the OT, 2 of 3 saber users we see are skilled mechanics (Luke & Vader). Yes, it's not thanks to their jedi training though ;)

 

If people have issues with Mechanics for saber mod, maybe K(lore) could be an alternate solution which would solve the uber-skill problem.

 

Add Force dices to a skill check when attempting to mod a saber with a Mech (or Lore ;) ) check could also be an interesting alternative.

Edited by perfidius

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"The crystal is not, by itself, the power source of the weapon. Like the Force user, the crystal is attuned to the Force. Without that attunement, the crystal is just a rock. And while a non-Force user could probably ignite and wield a lightsaber, provided the crystal was properly attuned to the Force, all that lightsaber would be for him is a shaft of superheated plasma. But for a Jedi, the lightsaber becomes more: it is a manifestation of a Jedi's connection to the Force."

―Jaden Korr

I don't think it breaks the spirit of the game to allow someone to pursue a greater connection Force in order to Mod their Crystals. Requiring a mechanics check (only) just doesn't feel very Star Wars to me. So how does someone attune a Crystal with the Force? That is the point of this discussion. Does it make Discipline even more important? Yes. So what?

I don't see Darth Maul as a techie and yet he spent days in meditation refining and purifying 4 crystals in order to craft his double-bladed saber (well, only 2 crystals in this system). That strikes me as Discipline, probably with a resilience check beforehand.

Edited by Gigerstreak
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So how does someone attune a Crystal with the Force? That is the point of this discussion. Does it make Discipline even more important? Yes. So what?

 

I have to disagree here. IMO, the point is "do we need to change the current rule to use Discipline in order to mod a lightsaber ?", which is very different.

 

For a Force user, EVERYTHING is about the connection with the Force, mind over matter and all that jazz. I completely agree with that. But in a game, that would mean: ALL checks could be made using Discipline, if Discipline represents how efficient is the connection with the Force.

 

The Force powers show us a different route: Enhanced is a good example, allowing to add Force dices to Piloting checks, for instance, but doesn't allow the use of Discipline instead of Piloting. As it is a game, balance and variety in characters are issues, not only simulation.

 

Which is why i express concern if Discipline becomes a uber-skill, and offer alternatives if Mechanics seems too weird for some: K(Lore), for instance, or the possibility (maybe with a Talent) to add Force dices to mod a lightsaber.

 

The part about Luke & Vader being skilled mechanics is a different argument, far less important, trying to show that considering only the OT, which is covered by F&D, using Mechanics is not so crazy. But I agree this is by far a weaker argument ;)

 

Kudos for your EU trivia, btw ! :)

Edited by perfidius
Thebearisdriving likes this

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I'm with adding the Force Dice to the skill check as Upgrades or Boost dice for modifying Lightsabers. Not for allowing Discipline to further become the "go to" Force User skill.

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