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tiefanatic

Would a true ISD be OP?

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So, i was thinking that, since the standard ISD has about 70 turbolasers and 60 Ion Cannons, wouldn't it WAY overpowered if FFG kept too the canon attack value it should have?

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I don't think an ISD would be OP in this game.  The number of dice you roll is not the number of any specific type of weapon you have.  All those turbolasers and ion cannons just mean it has a lot of firepower, but it isn't an entirely different scale of firepower as a VSD.  I think it is even possible to include Super Star Destroyers in this game.

 

Taking everything to a higher scale where huge cruiser (or even larger) ships can be represented is what this game is all about.

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I don't think an ISD would be OP in this game.  The number of dice you roll is not the number of any specific type of weapon you have.  All those turbolasers and ion cannons just mean it has a lot of firepower, but it isn't an entirely different scale of firepower as a VSD.  I think it is even possible to include Super Star Destroyers in this game.

 

Taking everything to a higher scale where huge cruiser (or even larger) ships can be represented is what this game is all about.

What he said.

I would go so far to say that Armada would be pointless without ISDs and Mon Cals.

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Should ISDs, the single most iconic capital ship from the entire series (and, some might argue, the entire genre) not be playable, Armada will have failed as a game.

 

Needless to say, they will be playable. An ISD I will probably cost in the realm of 130-140 points and have a terrifying amount of firepower, but be slow as molasses and highly vulnerable to snubfighter attack. 

 

FFG isn't too strict on "canon" attack values anyways; note that the X-Wing only rolls 1 more attack die than the TIE in the X-Wing minis game despite having twice as many lasers, and the lasers being stronger to begin with. 

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I wouldn't be surprised if ISDs ended up being the heaviest conventional ships in the game, maxing out at 2, honestly.

 

It's easy to think of Imperial Star Destroyers being "only the mainstays" of the Imperial forces and easily defeated. They're the most common capital ship after all, and they get blown up all the time whenever the heroes cross paths with one in the EU.... except in some places, which talk about how dangerous and suicidal it is to approach one. Star Destroyers are to be feared.

 

If FFG is taking this to heart, then I expect to see a respectable star destroyer piece eventually in the game. Empire players will love to take them and smash enemy ships with them until they realize how ponderous and limited they are when set across the table from the more nimble and numerous rebel players. They will still be powerful hammers of the Imperial navy but then I think you'll see just one, with a mix of escort vessels and fighters. They'll occupy a similar niche Firesprays/shuttles do in Imperial lists by being large-ship anchors for entire formations.

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One thing I hope they get right is the fact that ISDs are not slow at all. Yes they are ponderous and have a propensity to run into asteroids/each other, but they are in no way slow.

 

One was effectively keeping up with the Falcon in both ANH and ESB, only due to fancy flying did han escape.

 

They were designed to be the successor to the VSD in every way, so I do believe they should be faster in the game, maybe a 3 speed with no turn allowed.

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I'd be surprised if we can even take two efficiently. Taking three Victory's is already cutting into your points a lot. I think we're going to see a lot more fleets with a single Star Destroyer as their command ship and several support ships.

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I too expect ISD's to be in the game, and to be in the 100+ point range, most likely 115 for the ISD I and 125-130 for the ISD II.

They won't be OP'ed however. Using Wookiepedia as a guide, the ISD II has about twice the firepower of the VSD II. So that means if it rolls say 9 dice in the fore arc vs 6, that's going to feel about right I think. Especially if they get say 3 red, 3 blue and 3 black.

Now the SSD on the other hand, has about forty times the firepower a ISD II has. There's no way to come close to that level of firepower in this game for 300 points.

Edited by VanorDM
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Stuff the number of points who has enough space (and dice) to roll 360 attack dice? I do have a simple solution for that though. Roll 3 dice. If any land on the table destroy the target.

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Just for a point of reference; the Victory class is 900m long; an average SSD is 19,000m long. If they kept even close to scale the nose of it would be in your opponent's deployment zone at the start of the game.

Edited by Beatty
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Not unless Armada gets its own epic format. Pointwise it's already looking like it's going to be hard enough to field three Victory's. I'd be surprised if we can field more than one kitted Imperial class Star Destroyer. An SSD would be even more point expensive to field.

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I wouldn't be surprised if ISDs ended up being the heaviest conventional ships in the game, maxing out at 2, honestly.

 

It's easy to think of Imperial Star Destroyers being "only the mainstays" of the Imperial forces and easily defeated. They're the most common capital ship after all, and they get blown up all the time whenever the heroes cross paths with one in the EU.... except in some places, which talk about how dangerous and suicidal it is to approach one. Star Destroyers are to be feared.

 

If FFG is taking this to heart, then I expect to see a respectable star destroyer piece eventually in the game. Empire players will love to take them and smash enemy ships with them until they realize how ponderous and limited they are when set across the table from the more nimble and numerous rebel players. They will still be powerful hammers of the Imperial navy but then I think you'll see just one, with a mix of escort vessels and fighters. They'll occupy a similar niche Firesprays/shuttles do in Imperial lists by being large-ship anchors for entire formations.

This has got to be the soundest analysis I've seen so far. The inclusion of the ISD (I or II) isn't really a question. As admiralcrunch pointed out, the game would be pointless without it.

It's going to be interesting to see how effective they are going to be. They should be able to go toe to toe with Mon Calamari cruisers for a few turns, and the resulting slugging matches could be entertaining. I'm hoping fighters and bombers aren't going to be able to take them out too easily. They should be an annoyance with an outside chance of inflicting damage, but not really capable of crippling an ISD each turn.

We're speculating on only being able to field maybe one ISD and a few support ships for the points, but this game is sure to go epic later on down the track, and it wouldn't surprise me if we get to see some really large fleet actions.

Edited by Parravon

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You need to field at least 11 bombers if you want to have a chance of crippling a VSD in a single turn. If we stick to 14 points as a price, that's at least 154 points in fighters. Well over half the army, and still susceptible to being intercepted or simply being blown out of the sky by anti-squadron fire.

 

And that's just the Victory, the Imperial class is going to have its stats even higher, which means you'd need even more fighters to bring it down reliably in a single turn. At which point the ISD might just target the few capital ships in your fleet and win by blowing them out of space.

 

Could mass-fighter work? Maybe. But I expect it to be a gamble, especially since the victory conditions state to destroy the opponent's capital ships, not every unit on the board.

Edited by keroko

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Not unless Armada gets its own epic format. Pointwise it's already looking like it's going to be hard enough to field three Victory's. I'd be surprised if we can field more than one kitted Imperial class Star Destroyer. An SSD would be even more point expensive to field.

I have no intention of sticking to 300 point games. When I play with friends we might go as high as 500, and why not? Get some real fleets out there. 300 will be a good game, and Im sure I and others will use it often but theres no reason to let that restrain me if my oppenent is willing to give it a go.

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So, i was thinking that, since the standard ISD has about 70 turbolasers and 60 Ion Cannons, wouldn't it WAY overpowered if FFG kept too the canon attack value it should have?

From what iv seen yes they whould be op. They carry more difrent types of weapons than you wrote, also there some SD that are built with alternate load outs.

The heavy heavy turbo broadsides have a firing range of 15 light min. Most rebs don't come close to that range.

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Really, 15 light minutes. Thats 270 million km.thats almost 2 au, or Mar's distance from the sun. That figure is way out of proportion. 15 light seconds, that would be 4.5 million km, which is still ridiculous but not as bad. About 11 times the distance from the earth to the moon.

It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it. ( or stat wars is in the discworld universe where light travels very slowly)

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Really, 15 light minutes. Thats 270 million km.thats almost 2 au, or Mar's distance from the sun. That figure is way out of proportion. 15 light seconds, that would be 4.5 million km, which is still ridiculous but not as bad. About 11 times the distance from the earth to the moon.

It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it. ( or stat wars is in the discworld universe where light travels very slowly)

 

 

Yeah not even the LOTF Long range turbolasers, which take so much energy to fire that an ISDII can't power its shields and fire four batteries of them at the same time, have been shown as having anything near a 15 Light Second range much less 15 Light Minutes. In fact all of the ship battles we see in the Star Wars films and novels that I recall take place at a range of less then 1 Light Second  believe. Maybe 1 or 2 Light seconds at most but no where near 15.

Edited by RogueCorona

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Not unless Armada gets its own epic format. Pointwise it's already looking like it's going to be hard enough to field three Victory's. I'd be surprised if we can field more than one kitted Imperial class Star Destroyer. An SSD would be even more point expensive to field.

I have no intention of sticking to 300 point games. When I play with friends we might go as high as 500, and why not? Get some real fleets out there. 300 will be a good game, and Im sure I and others will use it often but theres no reason to let that restrain me if my oppenent is willing to give it a go.

 

Oh, so will I, but FFG will be making models with those 300 points in mind. And I doubt an SSD fits into that.

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It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it.

Well in Star Wars apparently distance = Speed, since Han boasted about completing the Kessle Run in less then 12 parsec's.

Clearly people in SciFi use terms all the time that they don't really understand, or get units wrong... Like the fact that the whole planet of Alderaan had a couple Million people on it.

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Kessel run is a very dangerous route, Han meant that he cut corners and risked alot by flying close to suernovas, black holes etc and not going wide around them. Safe route is around 18 or 20 parcesc, i dont remember,

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Kessel run is a very dangerous route...

That was all stuff that someone came up with after the fact to explain what Lucas meant. But it's a pretty sketchy explanation that is so clearly meant to do nothing short of explain a mistake...

Here's the quote.

It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships. Not the local bulk cruisers mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you old man

Han was talking about how fast the Falcon was compared to Imperial ships, but then talks about the distance traveled. Traveling less distance doesn't make something faster, retaliative to other vehicles.

That would be like someone saying they made it from point A to B in 15 minutes and me responding with "oh yeah... I did it in 3 miles." I may of done it faster, but that does not mean my car is faster then theirs.

J43G3RM31ST3R and Gosric like this

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Really, 15 light minutes. Thats 270 million km.thats almost 2 au, or Mar's distance from the sun. That figure is way out of proportion. 15 light seconds, that would be 4.5 million km, which is still ridiculous but not as bad. About 11 times the distance from the earth to the moon.

It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it. ( or stat wars is in the discworld universe where light travels very slowly)

 

No actully it was written by the authers of sw vehicles, Dr. Curtis Saxton PhD in theoretical astrophysics, and Kerrie Dougherty Curator of Space Technology.

 

Really, 15 light minutes. Thats 270 million km.thats almost 2 au, or Mar's distance from the sun. That figure is way out of proportion. 15 light seconds, that would be 4.5 million km, which is still ridiculous but not as bad. About 11 times the distance from the earth to the moon.

It sounds like that statistic was a throw away line with no thought put to it. ( or stat wars is in the discworld universe where light travels very slowly)

 

 

Yeah not even the LOTF Long range turbolasers, which take so much energy to fire that an ISDII can't power its shields and fire four batteries of them at the same time, have been shown as having anything near a 15 Light Second range much less 15 Light Minutes. In fact all of the ship battles we see in the Star Wars films and novels that I recall take place at a range of less then 1 Light Second  believe. Maybe 1 or 2 Light seconds at most but no where near 15.

Firstly they never show in the movies them firing the super heavy broadsides of star destroyers in the OT. 2nd the LOTF is a difrentweapon alltogether. 3rd. You se them fighting at closerrangers in the movies because they were ether hearding ships or containing them. I might also add that thte majority of heavy and reg turbos on a SD have a 75 mile range and do way les damage than the broadside turbos. 4th your not taking into consideration the effects of ecm that both the the rebs and imps are throwing out, in huge fights like rotj space wil be swamped with it. 4th the empire uses the TIE Fighter / rc to make the broadsides hit ships better at long range.

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The game will not be complete without Imperial Star Destroyers and Mon Cal's flying around like the true lords of space... If they want to introduce supercapitals as a $70-100 each Epic play expansion a year or two down the road, I'm all for that too!

Do keep in mind that it doesn't appear that the game will be to scale so as long as there's a good sense of relative scale I'm totally fine with scaled down ISD and Mon cal's for playability purposes. Getting the size "just right" comparatively will be the problem I suspect.

 

As far as stats go, the game abstracts statistics to come up with some measure of relative ship power. The X-wing having three dice to the Tie's two illustrates this nicely. As far as stats go, the X-wing has double the laser cannon and thus, double the theoretical firepower to a Tie, but taken within the context of the game(evade tokens and defense dice et all.) it works well to show the offensive disparity between the ships.

 

On the Han parsec note, I ascribe to the theory that he was just spouting off to make his ship sound impressive to scam them out of their fare. As an astrogator Han most assuredly knows the difference between measurements of distance vs speed, but would naturally assume the total layman about the street has no idea how to navigate a spaceship.

Then again, it may just be a total handwave to dismiss a mistake made in the screenplay. Also completely possible. :D

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Kessel run is a very dangerous route...

That was all stuff that someone came up with after the fact to explain what Lucas meant. But it's a pretty sketchy explanation that is so clearly meant to do nothing short of explain a mistake...Here's the quote.

It's the ship that made the Kessel Run in less than twelve parsecs. I've outrun Imperial starships. Not the local bulk cruisers mind you, I'm talking about the big Corellian ships now. She's fast enough for you old man

Han was talking about how fast the Falcon was compared to Imperial ships, but then talks about the distance traveled. Traveling less distance doesn't make something faster, retaliative to other vehicles.That would be like someone saying they made it from point A to B in 15 minutes and me responding with "oh yeah... I did it in 3 miles." I may of done it faster, but that does not mean my car is faster then theirs.

Maybe he is braging about computing speed/power of his hyperspace navi computer. It took him in x amount of time before the computer made a route for he falcon to travel in hyperspace. X normally takes longer for other ships hyper navis to calulate?

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