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GauntZero

some remaining rule oddities

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To be fair to cps, the powers Amaimon is describing don't sound anything at all like any video game I've ever player and trying to insult an RPG by comparing it to a video game (which most of us probably already play too much) is the laziest and dumbest insult. Maybe if RPGs took more cues from video games they'd be more than a niche hobby just above model trains. Or maybe if video games took a hint from RPGs they would still be making video games exactly like they did in NES games with arbitrary extreme difficulty, unfairness, and mechanics disconnected from the source material

Mechanics disconnected from the source material? Computer games tend to be going down this route much more than table top games (unless they are trying to emulate that feel). Many computer games have odd special abilities which either do things that are a bit hard to rationalise as in setting, or have arbitrary game balance derived limits put on them (cool downs etc). Tabletop games, from my experience, tend to try much more to get the feel of the source material when constructing a game (d20 versions of anything aside... but then d20 doesn't emulate anything except d20 well. It isn't a generic system).

 

* The Hard Target talent bestows a -20 on enemy shooters when you run or charge. But running without a talent already gives you a -20, it says in the combat modifiers section.

 

* The Awareness skill is superfluous compared to the Perception stat. If you want to know if the Acolyte hears something, you would roll for Perception. Why superimpose a skill that does exactly the same over a stat?

The same goes to say for Fellowship and Charm.

 

* I never liked the cover rules. I don't want to track the hitpoints of a brick wall or wooden doorpost. Our house ruling is -10 for soft cover and -20 for hard cover (to BS).

 

* I read that an Inquisitor can use a Fate Point to demand a clue to the investigation he is doing from the Gamesmaster? That's so gamey and stupid :)

Hard Target presumably gives you another -20 on top of that.

The Awareness Skill: If asked for it they don't have it they are rolling Perception at -20. They can also train awareness higher than the base stat level. The real question is whether it is justified having the Perception stat, as so little is based of it (it didn't exist in WRFP 2nd edition, which the 40k system was developed from). I think it has improved over the game lines (more talents that key off it, I think), but it is still an under used stat.

Cover: Use as much as you like. It is your rules. I would say if you don't want to track hit points, just go "This cover stops hits, this cover doesn't, but gives a couple of extra points of armour and this cover provides no protection, but if someone hides behind it they can't be seen."

FFG are trying 1) to give the system a more narrative slant (the system is a really non-narrative system... it is what I tend to call a representative one), which many of the "Spend Fate point to do x automatically" abilities are meant to do, 2) these kinds of abilities are meant to avoid plot derailment due to failed tests at crucial moments (which the old system was prone to, particularly with inexperienced GMs) and 3) it is a crutch for less experienced players (or even experienced players who get sidetracked and want to get back to the main plot). It gives them a mechanical way to go "We are a bit stumped here, but we want to engage with your plot. Can we please be told what the right direction is to take?" It also represents the broad experience that would give an Inquisitor the insight into these kind problems which a Player simply will not have.

Except the example quoted of a noble being able to use his presence to cause fatigue is pretty thematic. Even as inquisition agents, people are trained to fear the nobility and the power of their station. Think of the nobility as being like darkseid, who enforces loyalty through force of will, cult of personality, and pure intimidation. If a noble uses that power to inflict fatigue, it's essentially his big "you would dare to face ME?!" speech. If that isn't suitable for the character of the noble or the situation, it's the GM's prerogative to not use it, just like its his prerogative to not give special speed abilities to an eldar with a broken leg or give te listed equipment of a lasgun to a guard on a feudal planet. That and fatigue can be seen both as physical AND mental wear an tear.

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Also, by mechanics disconnected from the source material I mean older video games that played nothing like the movie or whatever they were based on, even in spirit. Newer games at least try to invoke the spirit of the setting. They also do use somewhat disconnected mechanics for things like combat but those are usually fun as hell to play and use, which is something most rpg combat seems time lacking. Not a lot of video games that involve you standing in one place using the same attack or weapon over and over lest you get killed, are there?

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- damage of bows is not in any way related to the users strength, and crossbows should have some kind of penetration (since that is what they were built for in the middle ages - killing knights).

New bow rules, 1d10 + x Primitive (6)

x = SB

- why is in not possible to "mono" low tech ranged weapons ?

Homebrew it in.

- why does a highborn get 1d5+9 wounds ? Shouldnt it be 8 or even 7 ? They even have a - at Toughness

1d5 +7 for highborn now.

- telepathic link is an awful mix of mind probe and telepathy. It means, neither of both can be done in a good way.

- a lot of good investigative psy powers are missing, especially for divination. What i see is a copy from only war - a war game...

There is a fix coming; watch the Darkreign site, the owner is working on a complete rewrite of the psyker system.

- tripods and bipods can be used for basic weapon but have no use but to limit their use...maybe it should be a pre-requisite to use the accurate weapon trait effectively

Make it so.

-characters are still able to carry too much in my opinion. They should be able to carry less, but giving backpacks a benefit by reducing the weight inside them.

Create encombrance modifiers to agility?

 

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- damage of bows is not in any way related to the users strength, and crossbows should have some kind of penetration (since that is what they were built for in the middle ages - killing knights).

 

I don't see why mono can easily be modified for primitive ranged weapons like a cross-bow or other largely mechanical weapon. However, I'd say that the weapon doesn't get a bonus to Pen, which would require special ammo. 

 

As for using SB for the bow, that's also an option, though I recall a conversation how you'd set a bow's tension for a specific strength instead of simply adding SB. 

 

- why does a highborn get 1d5+9 wounds ? Shouldnt it be 8 or even 7 ? They even have a - at Toughness

 

A better standard of living could go a long way to explaining this. But they also gain a +5 to Influence, which can be increased without spending xp. 

 

- the Leadership is awfully underpowered. It should at least be an optional aptitude to psyker for willpower increases (an additional Leadership talent would also help)

 

This came up in another thread, and it seems like a good idea. Leadership doesn't really contribute to many skills or talents, and it lets non-Psykers have a double aptitude in Willpower. 

 

- the ag limitations for armours are usually too high to be effective in any way. 5 points lower would suit its reason better. As it is now, your ag is usually much lower anyway

 

It depends. A character without an Ag score over 40 or 50 isn't losing anything for heavier armor, while characters with a high Ag are going to be able to Dodge most attacks with great reliability. If you feel it's too low, though you can raise it by 10 or so and see how it goes. 

 

- telepathic link is an awful mix of mind probe and telepathy. It means, neither of both can be done in a good way.

 

I disagree. Since Psy Focuses give a +10 bonus, and you get a +10 bonus per PR you drop, the challenge isn't going to be very hard for a reasonably powerful psyker unless there's a Untouchable nearby or you're trying to use it at a significant distance. 

 

As for Thought Sending, as long as the target expects it, you automatically pass, so you can use it for silent communication among your group freely (as long as they don't have RP reasons to refuse). 

 

- a lot of good investigative psy powers are missing, especially for divination. What i see is a copy from only war - a war game...

 

This is a loss that should be rectified. Porting them over from RT should be relatively easy, however. 

 

- tripods and bipods can be used for basic weapon but have no use but to limit their use...maybe it should be a pre-requisite to use the accurate weapon trait effectively

 

I don't really see why Accurate should be limited to require a bipod or tripod. Reducing range penalties and/or giving an extra +5 or +10 to an Accurate basic weapon with a brace seems more appropriate IMHO. 

 

- cybernetics have no real downside (insanity points would be a good idea)

 

I can see this for heretech or forbidden cybernetics. The strictures of the Tech Priests are designed to avoid the horrors of the past, so they only use tried-and-true patterns and schematics. A sanctioned, legal cybernetic shouldn't cause these issues IMHO, but if you want to emphasize the dangers of technology, black market and illegal mods can have a chance (for standard models produced with unsanctioned designs) or automatically cause insanity. 

 

Edited by Objulen

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* The Hard Target talent bestows a -20 on enemy shooters when you run or charge. But running without a talent already gives you a -20, it says in the combat modifiers section.

 

Where, exactly, is the general -20 on a moving target coming from. Assuming it is the case, they'd would stack to a -40. 

 

* The Awareness skill is superfluous compared to the Perception stat. If you want to know if the Acolyte hears something, you would roll for Perception. Why superimpose a skill that does exactly the same over a stat?

The same goes to say for Fellowship and Charm.

 

Where is that coming from? If you're trying to notice something, you're going to roll Awareness, not just Perception. If you're trying to impress someone, you'll roll Charm, not just Fellowship. 

 

* I read that an Inquisitor can use a Fate Point to demand a clue to the investigation he is doing from the Gamesmaster? That's so gamey and stupid 

 

Inquisitors are generally broken, but they're also designed for epic-level play. It first the kind of power level you're dealing with at that point. 

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My problem with the cybernetics issue is, that cybernetics are always better than no cybernetics.

 

So, first thing I'd do under given rules, is, replace all of my limbs with cybernetic ones.

I don't see the problem with this.

Transhumanism, hooooooooooooooooo!

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  • RAW, you’re still not allowed to assign your characteristics scores as desired. An ancient and outdated model of char gen that doesn’t help you to make the character you want to play. Your rapier-wielding roguish scoundrel could end up with crappy WS, Ag and Fel and your gaunt old Sage could have killer Str, T and WS and paltry Int.

  • Combat still takes forever to resolve and encourages everyone in the setting to wear big helmets.

  • The chapter on Social Interaction states Interaction skills only affect a number of people equal to Fel Bonus, while it is actually ten times that number. (Nitpicking I know, but the same copy/paste error persists from Only War).

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  • RAW, you’re still not allowed to assign your characteristics scores as desired. An ancient and outdated model of char gen that doesn’t help you to make the character you want to play. Your rapier-wielding roguish scoundrel could end up with crappy WS, Ag and Fel and your gaunt old Sage could have killer Str, T and WS and paltry Int.

 

 

I love hating on FFG as much as the next guy, but I can't find where it says this. The wording of the section in the character creation chapter doesn't explicitly say one way or the other, in which case I'd err on the side of 'assign as desired'

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My problem with the cybernetics issue is, that cybernetics are always better than no cybernetics.

 

So, first thing I'd do under given rules, is, replace all of my limbs with cybernetic ones.

I don't really see the issue with this either. With the listed rarities, getting cybernetics, especially good and best quality cybernetics, isn't easy, especially if you're not Adeptus Mechanicus. Other than that, it's an equipment bonus, and should be treated like most other equipment. It has the advantage of not being lost easily, but can really hose you if you get hit with a haywire grenade. 

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  • RAW, you’re still not allowed to assign your characteristics scores as desired. An ancient and outdated model of char gen that doesn’t help you to make the character you want to play. Your rapier-wielding roguish scoundrel could end up with crappy WS, Ag and Fel and your gaunt old Sage could have killer Str, T and WS and paltry Int.

 

"Not allowed" might be a bit strong, given how the chapter has a sidebar with a suggested point-buy system.

 

The basic premise of the game is that you probably shouldn't have decided to play a "rapier-wielding roguish scoundrel" prior to rolling your stats. If that's the only way you can generate characters, fine, but then your group should decide what to do instead. You are allowed to do that, at least. ;)

 

I'm usually not in favour of rolled stats, but Dark Heresy has taught me to enjoy it. I do like rolling up stats and then see what kind of character to make of it. There is also a lot less pressure from the rest of the group to build the "perfect" character when your characteristics are out of your hands.

 

If that's not your thing, that's totally cool, but I get a sense that people tend to be all "whaaat that's not what I'm used to!!" without even thinking about it. Personally, I find both systems have pros and cons.

 

Also, this was more the theme of DH1 than it is in DH2, but in the 40k setting, 'bureaucratic nonsense' is a pretty strong theme. Which includes being randomly selected for a particular role, with no thought to whether you'd be any good at it. Playing a Strength 40, Toughness 40, Intelligence 25 Adept is, like, the entire point of the game. :) Slight exaggeration, maybe, but I do feel it was a core point in DH1. Less so in DH2 that seems to focus more on characters being awesome Inquisitorial agents.

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The HPless system was interesting, but clunky as all hell. Having to look at a table every time you were hit is not the ideal way to deal with the issue. Also had bizarre results like someone at full health actually being unkillable to being hit by a burst of autocannon fire. It was probably best that they dropped it.

 

There is a reason that so many systems use HP systems: They work. HPless systems are hard to get to work properly. I have yet to come across one that isn't a pain in the neck during game play, even though theoretically they were more "realistic". Personally I don't see a problem with HP until you have the DnD problem where people are huge bags of hit points that can be wailed apon until they just fall over. At the smaller levels like most of the 40k rpg system I don't personally see it as too much of an issue.

 

Agree. If anybody want to see HPless system - search "Aliens" rulebook. Ugly mechanics, but funny. Really u couldnt play without 4-5 A4 tables and constant searching in it

 

7. long las still the best sniper rifle in game, dont bother looking at normal sniper rifle or needler

 

8. armour ends on light power armor, that has bateries for 1d5 hours lol, on + gives unnatural strenght 1

 

10. I dont like the way the NPC stats are presented. Looks like a prelude to warmachine style stats :P

 

 

7. With sound sidebar it is very useful for sniper to hit a target with neelder as a silent weapon. With new focus mainly on covert operations (sublety) players should prepare for less combat encounters and more black ops (=

8. WHYYYY they didn't use BC rules for power armor? Just 2 pages.. Hope to see it in supplies.

10. +  Pesonally most of time I am playing through the Skype, so use custom excel sheets.

 

 

Buy the way, what the point to nerf Agility with armor, when it is more useful to nerf Dodge Skill with armor? I rarely see 50+ Ag, but Dodge 10/20 - is a normal practice.

 

And why Light Power Armor increases size? It is designed to be compact and to provide small bonuses.

 

And the last: why it is possible to acquire Inquisitor elite advance for Tech Priest? In the Ascention there is a special side bar, which clarify this issue, because Mechanicus first pursue the Quest of Knowledge.

Edited by Talissera

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