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SithShadowPirate

Scum & Villainy Huge & Epic

275 posts in this topic

 

 

 

Was kicking around a list for an escalation event where a TO was allowing Scum some of the existing 'Epic'-ships, and noticed something of a brutal combo.

 

In a faction where Zuckuss exists...check out that 'Comms Booster' cargo upgrade.

 

Yikes?!

 

Oh, snap-shot-Dengar, you picked up 9 stress last turn?  No problem - you're clear.  And here's a focus!  Not sure that's going to be easy to balance...

 

...nevermind that Scum without an illicit slot doesn't feel very "scummy", yet...an Epic-scale ship with Glitterstim?  ...Inertial Dampeners?  etc...

 

Dunno, maybe a Scum 'huge' isn't as inevitable as we thought - not sure how FFG would prevent some of these rather powerful combos...

 

Zuckuss on the huge itself.

FFG would just do some card errata like they have in the past.

 

 

Same with Dengar.

 

But the "problem" is that both Dengar and Zuckuss were wave 9 releases - IE., they just came out, yet did not specify 'small or large base, only'.

 

Given we seem to be in pretty general agreement that they'd be crazy broken on Epic-scale ships, and as a new release they lack the text that would prevent them from being equipped to Epic-scale ships...the logical conclusion is that FFG doesn't have a Scum Epic-scale ship currently in playtest (or the interaction would have been caught, and the cards would have been released with appropriate limiting text on them instead of what we got).

 

If a Scum 'huge' ship isn't even in playtest, yet...then it would seem to indicate we either aren't getting one, or if we are getting one, it's going to be quite a long ways out...

 

I disagree, as it's been said, FFG has already started editing cards,

so they can do it for Dengar and Zuckuss, even if it's just an errata.

I mean really, the new world champion was telling Alex Davy he might do

a Yoda crew upgrade or a Ben Kenobi card, so he could always do a

Jabba the Hutt card one doesn't exist in the design department already.

 

 

Anyone who has studied Supply & Demand microeconomics can assure you that if there is a buck to be made...

and it's not a simple decision at all. We don't know all the factors that FFG considers but we can guess at some.

 

#1) Sales of current Epic ships

#2) Would Scum Epic bring more interest in Epic overall and increase sales.

#3) Price FFG wants to set future Epic releases and reprints at to balance supply/demand.

 

240px-Supply-and-demand.svg.png

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Assuming a gunship (ie, Corvette/Raider) type vehicle: Legit:Dengar is a must-have; he's a built-in Jonus (Granted, uniques are somewhat rarer in Epic, but still).Gonk is poor value.Boba would be hilarious as always.IG-88D is... a 4pt Gunner discount, I guess? IG-88A might provide some marginal synergy, too.Latts Razzi: Combine with Reinforce and a stress-dealer for great hilarity.Greedo: Terrible idea, but technically legal.Ketsu Onyo: Not illegal, but whether it's useful would depend a whole bunch on what else is in the box. Changed:4LOM ends up costing an energy. Broken:Zuckuss and Bossk are currently usable 'free'. And come with pretty shiny bonuses. Even when Bossk's focus token wouldn't stick around, he still ends up Huge Scum FCS in the process, and that could well be worthwhile regardless. Nonfunctional:K4 & Outlaw rely on colours that don't exist on a dial.Unkar Plutt grants free actions when you ram ships... but rammed ships explode. (I guess it miiiight be able to work on ramming other Huge?)

88D wouldn't work as a Gunner unless the ship comes with a Cannon slot, as 88B's ability specifies that upgrade. Unkar Plutt also wouldn't work, as Epic ships can't receive free actions. Zuckuss is the biggest problem, but could be errata'd to "Small or Large ship Only".
Ketsu Onyo, now that you mention it... suggests the possibility of a cool new hardpoint tractor beam.
  

Ordnance-tubes.png 

 

Well they did do a modification for missiles and torpedoes, so it's actually unlikely they wouldn't consider it, maybe.

 

30235349114_1cea35f4e0.jpg

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Assuming a gunship (ie, Corvette/Raider) type vehicle:

 

Legit:

Dengar is a must-have; he's a built-in Jonus (Granted, uniques are somewhat rarer in Epic, but still).

Gonk is poor value.

Boba would be hilarious as always.

IG-88D is... a 4pt Gunner discount, I guess? IG-88A might provide some marginal synergy, too.

Latts Razzi: Combine with Reinforce and a stress-dealer for great hilarity.

Greedo: Terrible idea, but technically legal.

Ketsu Onyo: Not illegal, but whether it's useful would depend a whole bunch on what else is in the box.

 

Changed:

4LOM ends up costing an energy.

 

Broken:

Zuckuss and Bossk are currently usable 'free'. And come with pretty shiny bonuses. Even when Bossk's focus token wouldn't stick around, he still ends up Huge Scum FCS in the process, and that could well be worthwhile regardless.

 

Nonfunctional:

K4 & Outlaw rely on colours that don't exist on a dial.

Unkar Plutt grants free actions when you ram ships... but rammed ships explode. (I guess it miiiight be able to work on ramming other Huge?)

88D wouldn't work as a Gunner unless the ship comes with a Cannon slot, as 88B's ability specifies that upgrade.

 

Unkar Plutt also wouldn't work, as Epic ships can't receive free actions.

 

Zuckuss is the biggest problem, but could be errata'd to "Small or Large ship Only".

 

Ketsu Onyo, now that you mention it... suggests the possibility of a cool new hardpoint tractor beam.

 

Falcon tossing, anyone? :D

 

And yes, IG-88B only works if it has a cannon slot. Not impossible, but on second thought also not likely either.

 

 

Ordnance-tubes.png

 

Well they did do a modification for missiles and torpedoes, so it's actually unlikely they wouldn't consider it, maybe.

 

Yes, that's why I listed it in the "Legit" area rather than "Nonfunctional" - it doesn't have a usable spot yet, but if a Huge ship did get a cannon, it's totally viable. And a 4pt discount on Gunner. ;)

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Assuming a gunship (ie, Corvette/Raider) type vehicle: Legit:Dengar is a must-have; he's a built-in Jonus (Granted, uniques are somewhat rarer in Epic, but still).Gonk is poor value.Boba would be hilarious as always.IG-88D is... a 4pt Gunner discount, I guess? IG-88A might provide some marginal synergy, too.Latts Razzi: Combine with Reinforce and a stress-dealer for great hilarity.Greedo: Terrible idea, but technically legal.Ketsu Onyo: Not illegal, but whether it's useful would depend a whole bunch on what else is in the box. Changed:4LOM ends up costing an energy. Broken:Zuckuss and Bossk are currently usable 'free'. And come with pretty shiny bonuses. Even when Bossk's focus token wouldn't stick around, he still ends up Huge Scum FCS in the process, and that could well be worthwhile regardless. Nonfunctional:K4 & Outlaw rely on colours that don't exist on a dial.Unkar Plutt grants free actions when you ram ships... but rammed ships explode. (I guess it miiiight be able to work on ramming other Huge?)

88D wouldn't work as a Gunner unless the ship comes with a Cannon slot, as 88B's ability specifies that upgrade. Unkar Plutt also wouldn't work, as Epic ships can't receive free actions. Zuckuss is the biggest problem, but could be errata'd to "Small or Large ship Only".

 

Ketsu Onyo, now that you mention it... suggests the possibility of a cool new hardpoint tractor beam.

 

  

Ordnance-tubes.png 

 

Well they did do a modification for missiles and torpedoes, so it's actually unlikely they wouldn't consider it, maybe.

 

30235349114_1cea35f4e0.jpg

 

I like it, but it should have the same cost as ordnance tubes given that it will have all the epic arcs that go with the hardpoints.

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Ordnance-tubes.png 

 

Well they did do a modification for missiles and torpedoes, so it's actually unlikely they wouldn't consider it, maybe.

 

30235349114_1cea35f4e0.jpg

I like it, but it should have the same cost as ordnance tubes given that it will have all the epic arcs that go with the hardpoints.

I was thinking that having the energy requirement would balance it out somewhat.

30869283785_c6aed78ef7.jpg

Edited by gabe69velasquez
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Assuming a gunship (ie, Corvette/Raider) type vehicle:

 

Legit:

Dengar is a must-have; he's a built-in Jonus (Granted, uniques are somewhat rarer in Epic, but still).

Gonk is poor value.

Boba would be hilarious as always.

IG-88D is... a 4pt Gunner discount, I guess? IG-88A might provide some marginal synergy, too.

Latts Razzi: Combine with Reinforce and a stress-dealer for great hilarity.

Greedo: Terrible idea, but technically legal.

Ketsu Onyo: Not illegal, but whether it's useful would depend a whole bunch on what else is in the box.

 

Changed:

4LOM ends up costing an energy.

 

Broken:

Zuckuss and Bossk are currently usable 'free'. And come with pretty shiny bonuses. Even when Bossk's focus token wouldn't stick around, he still ends up Huge Scum FCS in the process, and that could well be worthwhile regardless.

 

Nonfunctional:

K4 & Outlaw rely on colours that don't exist on a dial.

Unkar Plutt grants free actions when you ram ships... but rammed ships explode. (I guess it miiiight be able to work on ramming other Huge?)

 

Bossk is NOT the equivalent of FCS.  FCS triggers every attack.  Bossk ONLY works if you miss. And you can already get his ability "free" if you're already stressed.  He wouldn't be a problem on an epic ship.

 

 

 

 

 

Assuming a gunship (ie, Corvette/Raider) type vehicle: Legit:Dengar is a must-have; he's a built-in Jonus (Granted, uniques are somewhat rarer in Epic, but still).Gonk is poor value.Boba would be hilarious as always.IG-88D is... a 4pt Gunner discount, I guess? IG-88A might provide some marginal synergy, too.Latts Razzi: Combine with Reinforce and a stress-dealer for great hilarity.Greedo: Terrible idea, but technically legal.Ketsu Onyo: Not illegal, but whether it's useful would depend a whole bunch on what else is in the box. Changed:4LOM ends up costing an energy. Broken:Zuckuss and Bossk are currently usable 'free'. And come with pretty shiny bonuses. Even when Bossk's focus token wouldn't stick around, he still ends up Huge Scum FCS in the process, and that could well be worthwhile regardless. Nonfunctional:K4 & Outlaw rely on colours that don't exist on a dial.Unkar Plutt grants free actions when you ram ships... but rammed ships explode. (I guess it miiiight be able to work on ramming other Huge?)

88D wouldn't work as a Gunner unless the ship comes with a Cannon slot, as 88B's ability specifies that upgrade. Unkar Plutt also wouldn't work, as Epic ships can't receive free actions. Zuckuss is the biggest problem, but could be errata'd to "Small or Large ship Only".

 

Ketsu Onyo, now that you mention it... suggests the possibility of a cool new hardpoint tractor beam.

 

  

Ordnance-tubes.png 

 

Well they did do a modification for missiles and torpedoes, so it's actually unlikely they wouldn't consider it, maybe.

 

30235349114_1cea35f4e0.jpg

 

I like it, but it should have the same cost as ordnance tubes given that it will have all the epic arcs that go with the hardpoints.

 

 

He made it require an energy to spend.  That's a cost all it's own, and worth bieng cheaper than ordnance tubes IMO.

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Assuming a gunship (ie, Corvette/Raider) type vehicle:

Gonk is poor value.

After taking a look at the other options, straight damage retraction (hull or shield)

It's less than construction droid, which also needs 1 energy spent.

Compared to WED-15 Repair Droid, it's one more action, but one (or 3) less energy.

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Also Cannons are priced to fire every turn. Ordnance only fires once normally, so you are paying some of that price on Ordnance Tubes to get to fire the missiles/torpedoes more than once. It's like a much better version of Extra Munitions.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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Thing about missiles torpedoes and cannons is that they are standard range weapons so much more restricted to 1-3 band  and cannot reach the 4 or 5 epic range band. Range 4 and 5 does make a difference.

 

I remember trying to put a turret slot on the Death Merchant on the kit but the thing is the blaster turret and making rules for a GR-75 to use it would have taken up more space than on a condition card. So I ditched the turret in favor of a hardpoint slot or 2.

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I like it, but it should have the same cost as ordnance tubes given that it will have all the epic arcs that go with the hardpoints.

He made it require an energy to spend.  That's a cost all it's own, and worth bieng cheaper than ordnance tubes IMO.

Also Cannons are priced to fire every turn. Ordnance only fires once normally, so you are paying some of that price on Ordnance Tubes to get to fire the missiles/torpedoes more than once. It's like a much better version of Extra Munitions.

Thing about missiles torpedoes and cannons is that they are standard range weapons so much more restricted to 1-3 band  and cannot reach the 4 or 5 epic range band. Range 4 and 5 does make a difference.

Considerations for future Standard to Epic weapon mod cards.

  • Epic arcs vs Standard arcs.
  • Epic range vs Standard range.
  • Discard upgrades vs multiple use upgrades
  • Energy use vs Target lock use vs nothing spent.
  • Other tokens spent or assigned vs attack/damage roll only
♣ Have I missed any?

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Considerations for future Standard to Epic weapon mod cards.

  • Epic arcs vs Standard arcs.
  • Epic range vs Standard range.
  • Discard upgrades vs multiple use upgrades
  • Energy use vs Target lock use vs nothing spent.
  • Other tokens spent or assigned vs attack/damage roll only
♣ Have I missed any?
I don't know how you want to put it, maybe concomitant cost, where an assault missile would normally be 5 points, on an epic ship it would be 10. Aside from multiple arcs you might distinguish multiple bases, only epic ships have more than one base. It may not seem to matter, but some upgrades specify fore or aft only, IIRC. If you're going to get picky and cover every little thing, then Limited and not restricted. Also, it doesn't exist yet, but an arc that is a true turret would reference the blue middle as a non-barrier, even though it is assigned to a specific section: True turret vs Base Turret. Edited by SithShadowPirate
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Considerations for future Standard to Epic weapon mod cards.

  • Epic arcs vs Standard arcs.
  • Epic range vs Standard range.
  • Discard upgrades vs multiple use upgrades
  • Energy use vs Target lock use vs nothing spent.
  • Other tokens spent or assigned vs attack/damage roll only
  • Adapted Cost vs Upgrade only cost
  • Section restricted upgrade vs Trans-Section upgrade
  • Limited vs Multiple equip upgrade

If there are any other's I'll keep expanding this list.

In the mean time I'm getting upgrade ideas for these.

 

30268542393_cdf1ef3d40.jpg

 

30868786326_c024ea2d89.jpg

 

 

30268604793_1047a026c7.jpg

 

30869004136_0ac078f609.jpg

Edited by gabe69velasquez
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Zuckuss wouldn't have an insane impact on epic (even in an epic ship). Let's assume the scum epic "corvette" gets 1 primary attack and has 3 hard points. If it is anything like the other epic ships that exist then it will only have 2 crew slots. These are EXTREMELY important. Some options for these slots are near auto-include. If Zuckuss is selected as epic crew that's one less upgrade picked to improve your rolls.

In a standard round we'll assume you have 4 shots to take. In faction there aren't any cpt Jonus' so all you have to modify all 4 attacks is... One target lock, oh and zuckuss will make the green dice less reliable for the enemy. So assuming the first primary is 4 dice, it probably uses the target lock and you probably deal some decent damage with it. Then all you have to modify the three other (probably three die) shots is zuckuss. I'm not too terrified of three 1.5 hit rolls being forced through green dice when I have 8+ tie fighters at least on the table. Maybe that is just me though. I look forward to how they make the scum epic unique. In fact if it had more crew slots (3) that would be a scummy mercenary feel of its own.

I don't look forward to the new Scum Epic automatically always re-rolling all of my defense dice, especially when the attacker modifies the attack dice last.

 

Zuckuss is interesting no doubt but perhaps the balance will come in special crew that are MORE desirable to take than Zuckuss?  Jabba taking up 2, or even 3 crew slots for example... could be an extremely powerful card that might allow for a ton of battlefield control.

If the new scum epic comes with crew, they will have to errata Zuckuss, definately.

 

 

I don't uderstand the point about "attacker modifying attack dice last" in regard to Zuckuss. How is it different from regular play?

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I don't uderstand the point about "attacker modifying attack dice last" in regard to Zuckuss. How is it different from regular play?

The latest FAQ (4.23) added a timing chart on page 7.

https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/95/aa/95aa1708-4b04-4aca-8397-02d9d4247bcb/x-wing_faq_v423.pdf

The comment is in reference to step three of the chart.

 

3. “Modify Attack Dice” step

• These abilities include adding, changing, and rerolling dice results.

   Dice can be modified multiple times, but each die can be rerolled only once.

 

i. Defender resolves abilities that modify attack dice

 

ii. Attacker resolves abilities that modify attack dice

 

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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So? It has always been this way. 

Zuckuss modifies Defence Dice and his ability is used during the Modify Defence Dice step, where the attacker goes first.

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So? It has always been this way. 

Zuckuss modifies Defence Dice and his ability is used during the Modify Defence Dice step, where the attacker goes first.

 

Wow, I've been stuck looking at attack dice because Zuckuss is the attacker and it says when attacking. I've had it backwards all this time. It's step five I should have been considering, that's what I get for reading an abusrdly detailed chart while tired I guess, thanks for pointing that out.

 

5. “Modify Defense Dice” step

• These abilities include adding,changing, and rerolling dice results.

   Dice can be modified multiple times, but each die can be rerolled only once.

i. Attacker resolves abilities that modify defense dice

ii. Defender resolves abilities that modify defense dice

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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Considerations for future Standard to Epic weapon mod cards.

  • Epic arcs vs Standard arcs.
  • Epic range vs Standard range.
  • Discard upgrades vs multiple use upgrades
  • Energy use vs Target lock use vs nothing spent.
  • Other tokens spent or assigned vs attack/damage roll only
  • Adapted Cost vs Upgrade only cost
  • Section restricted upgrade vs Trans-Section upgrade
  • Limited vs Multiple equip upgrade

If there are any other's I'll keep expanding this list.

In the mean time I'm getting upgrade ideas for these.

 

30268542393_cdf1ef3d40.jpg

 

What scum ships are you thinking for docking?

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Did the standard C-Roc Gozanti ever dock fighters? Didn't it just ship cargo?

 

I would like a 'Black Market Goods' slot, so we could have some interesting scummy upgrades...

 

Something like

 

This ship may purchase an Illicit upgrade, attach it to this card. At the start of the Activation phase choose a friendly ship within range 1-3 to equip this Illicit upgrade, if the ship would discard the Illicit upgrade or during the End Phase return the Illicit upgrade to this card.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind
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Considerations for future Standard to Epic weapon mod cards.

  • Epic arcs vs Standard arcs.
  • Epic range vs Standard range.
  • Discard upgrades vs multiple use upgrades
  • Energy use vs Target lock use vs nothing spent.
  • Other tokens spent or assigned vs attack/damage roll only
  • Adapted Cost vs Upgrade only cost
  • Section restricted upgrade vs Trans-Section upgrade
  • Limited vs Multiple equip upgrade

If there are any other's I'll keep expanding this list.

In the mean time I'm getting upgrade ideas for these.

 

30268542393_cdf1ef3d40.jpg

 

What scum ships are you thinking for docking?

 

 

I was thinking Gozantis wouldn't be that different from each other that way

and since this other Gozanti also has docking ports, then the C-ROC might also,

besides it might just be a matter of equipping an upgrade like Docking clamps. 

 

21534432981_920eb3921b.jpg

 

So I looked around and i can see the same docking ports in the C-ROC image.

 

Merchant_One.jpg

 

 

You have to make a distinction between the ports and the extensions they call clamps. 

Swx35_docking-clamps.png

 

 

c_roc_gozanti_cruiser_interim_upgrade_or

 

c_roc_gozanti_cruiser_commercial_model_o

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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Did the standard C-Roc Gozanti ever dock fighters? Didn't it just ship cargo?

 

I would like a 'Black Market Goods' slot, so we could have some interesting scummy upgrades...

 

Something like

 

This ship may purchase an Illicit upgrade, attach it to this card. At the start of the Activation phase choose a friendly ship within range 1-3 to equip this Illicit upgrade, if the ship would discard the Illicit upgrade or during the End Phase return the Illicit upgrade to this card.

Are you saying you don't think the illicit slot is enough,

you want to add a scum version of the cargo slot?

I don't know if boomerang illicit upgrade cards wouldn't be a little too much. 

Have you looked at all of the discard illicit cards to check for odd interactions

or was that off the top of your head?

For example, tossing an EMP device around like a hot potato would be very odd.

...And that just made me think of X-wing miniatures pinball. 

Edited by gabe69velasquez

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Nope Illicit slots are quite broken on big ships, there would have to be a list of ones you couldn't take... I would prefer a unique Scum Cargo slot.... Black Market Goods or some other name which could be designed to work better on a large ship.

 

A lot of the Illicits that are discarded are powerful, things like Glitterstim for example. The EMP one would be quite funny. But the Black Market Goods upgrade could be quite expensive, 6-10 points to make up for the Illicit being used 2 or 3 times in a game.

Edited by Rodent Mastermind

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You could have a lot of fun with that slot though, making Scum unique... recommissioned Buzz Droids. A commander who has put bombs in his own fleets ships that he can set off as an action.. All kind of dirty scummy tricks that would only really work in Epic games.

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Considerations for future Standard to Epic weapon mod cards.

  • Epic arcs vs Standard arcs.
  • Epic range vs Standard range.
  • Discard upgrades vs multiple use upgrades
  • Energy use vs Target lock use vs nothing spent.
  • Other tokens spent or assigned vs attack/damage roll only
  • Adapted Cost vs Upgrade only cost
  • Section restricted upgrade vs Trans-Section upgrade
  • Limited vs Multiple equip upgrade

If there are any other's I'll keep expanding this list.

In the mean time I'm getting upgrade ideas for these.

 

30268542393_cdf1ef3d40.jpg

 

What scum ships are you thinking for docking?

 

 

I was thinking Gozantis wouldn't be that different from each other that way

and since this other Gozanti also has docking ports, then the C-ROC might also,

besides it might just be a matter of equipping an upgrade like Docking clamps. 

 

 

 

So I looked around and i can see the same docking ports in the C-ROC image.

 

 

 

 

You have to make a distinction between the ports and the extensions they call clamps. 

 

I don't have an issue with allowing the c-roc to dock ships, I'm just curious what ships you would allow to dock to it (similar to how not all ties can dock).

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Nope Illicit slots are quite broken on big ships, there would have to be a list of ones you couldn't take... I would prefer a unique Scum Cargo slot.... Black Market Goods or some other name which could be designed to work better on a large ship.

 

A lot of the Illicits that are discarded are powerful, things like Glitterstim for example. The EMP one would be quite funny. But the Black Market Goods upgrade could be quite expensive, 6-10 points to make up for the Illicit being used 2 or 3 times in a game.

 

All illicits so far.

Black Market Slicer Tools

Burnout Slam

Cloaking Device  Small ship only.

Dead Man's Switch

EMP Device

Feedback Array

Glitterstim

"Hot Shot" Blaster

Inertial Dampeners

Rigged Cargo Chute  Large ship only.

 

Something like this I take it...

30605190980_0bb19a1397.jpg

 

 

I don't have an issue with allowing the c-roc to dock ships, I'm just curious what ships you would allow to dock to it (similar to how not all ties can dock).

30272183004_99256e256a_z.jpg

 

Well for starters there are these.

And I see that the CR90 has the right clamps for A-wings

so I would guess M3-As shouldn't be a problem.

 

30329848915_d68c9759c4_z.jpg

so any of these that would fit I would guess.

I did a lot of touch ups to the images for those upgrades

and so I think my creative hat is a bit tilted today.

Edited by gabe69velasquez
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