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GiraffeandZebra

Let's speculate on Auto-thrusters

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I guess we're all assuming that the TIE Advanced fix will come from auto thrusters plus a title of some kind?

Not necessarily. If I am recalling the interview correctly, when talking about the dominance of turrets, they said they were aware of the situation and that there was a card in the star viper expansion to help deal with it, and that interceptor players were REALLY going to want to get it. Or something like that. A couple minutes later, after the interview had moved on a bit, they commented that they were also aware that the advanced was weak and had something in the works to fix it but they didn't explicitly say that the fix for turret dominance was the same thing.

Indeed! Also, in the same comment they named titles as a brilliant solution, but also wanting the title to be unique.

So no Chaardan refit for the advanced, but one unique to solve the issues this ship has.

  

I took it to mean that they want to do a bit more than merely reducing the cost of the Advanced. So, less Chardaan Refit, more Royal Guard Interceptor and A-wing Test Pilot.

I agree with Sithborg here. I, personally, find it EXTREMELY unlikely that they make the ship cheaper, due to its similarity to the X wing as far as it's dial and statline. Biggest difference being the reversal of attack and defense (3v2).

That isn't to say they definitely won't give us MORE for the same cost, just that they won't reduce it below 21. Many players may consider that the same thing, but I don't agree.

Honestly, I think it's more likely that they give us a title that increases the ship's potency significantly but also slightly increases it's cost. However, the only thing any of us can do is speculate.

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Well. Didn't MJ say the thing was about 4.5 points over costed? Dang at 17 points for a long lasting fighter Id take that.

But how many of the ships I'm the game follow the efficiency model? I was just giving my two cents in the matter. And I fully believe that we could receive a 1-2 point title or modification that could increase its efficiency moreso than its price. Such an upgrade would be undercosted on most other ships.

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Well. Didn't MJ say the thing was about 4.5 points over costed? Dang at 17 points for a long lasting fighter Id take that.

 

Yeah, the TIE Advanced is overcosted relative to a TIE Fighter by about 4 - 4.5 points. For reference the generic X-wing is probably overcosted relative to a TIE Fighter by about 2 - 2.5 points.

 

Any squad is going to be very efficient if you get nothing but ships for 100 points, so X-wings at 20 points would be perfectly fine if you were flying anything other than 5 Rookies.

 

Yeah. Straight out cheaper isn;t likely because then you have to deal with Vader. Overcosted ship but undercosted ability makes him pretty close to correct. Any fix for the advanced has to be accomplished in such a way as to not overpower Vader.

 

Its a difficult design dilemma.

 

Yeah. Vader is so much better than the other TIE Advanced that if they buff all the TIE Advanced equally, it's impossible to make the generics (and Maarek) playable without making Vader overpowered. It's quite a difficult design problem. I mentioned this on the NOVA podcast, but I think it might only be in the "extended" version. I got around this aspect in my house rules by just adjusting all the point values differently.

 

 

But how many of the ships I'm the game follow the efficiency model? I was just giving my two cents in the matter.

 

Ships with low efficiency (total efficiency, not jousting efficiency) pretty much always do poorly in tournaments, and ships with high efficiency do well in tournaments. So, I think that pretty much all of the ships follow the efficiency model. The model is less certain for ships that have unique capabilities, but still does a good job at predicting ship meta performance.

 

And I fully believe that we could receive a 1-2 point title or modification that could increase its efficiency moreso than its price. Such an upgrade would be undercosted on most other ships.

 

Well, it would certainly have to be TIE Advanced only, and if it costs positive points, then it's going to have to be a REALLY powerful upgrade, on the order of being worth 5 points.

Edited by MajorJuggler

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The most obvious way to get around the vader problem is to tie the fix to only PS 8 or lower. I have a hard time though thinking a fluff explanation for an upgrade that a skilled pilot can't use.

Also possibly something that, if you used it, would nullify vader's special ability. Some big bonus you use when you reveal your dial, but doing so causes you to skip your perform action step.

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Heres a novel idea, a TIE Advanced only modification that grants the system slot.

 

then have a system upgrade card that is the same as advanced sensors but you get +1 attack buff this turn if you use "Advanced" advanced sensors.

 

The beauty of this is that because Vader specifically grants you 2 actions in your "Perform action" step, if you use the "Advanced" advanced sensors  you skip your "Perform actions step", therefore negating Vaders ability.

 

then when using vader if you really want 2 actions you go without the attack buff.

 

not sure what the points cost would be or if its all too convoluted but thought it was an interesting idea

 

has someone pointed this out before?

 

Edit: the Irony on Tie Advanced not being able to take Advanced Sensors is certainly not lost on this one.

Edited by Mace Windu

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The most obvious way to get around the vader problem is to tie the fix to only PS 8 or lower. I have a hard time though thinking a fluff explanation for an upgrade that a skilled pilot can't use.

Also possibly something that, if you used it, would nullify vader's special ability. Some big bonus you use when you reveal your dial, but doing so causes you to skip your perform action step.

 

Vader's not that good that he doesn't deserve the same tweak the other Advances get.   He's an iconic character that was scarce at regionals.  He's a "decent" ship with outmaneuver and engine upgrade but at 36 points, there are actually much more effective ships out there.  At 39 points with EU, Prockets, and Outmaneuver, he's better, but again, that's 39 points and there are far more effective choices out there.   

 

It would be a travesty, imo, if the Advanced gets fixed but Vader's Advanced continues to sit on the competitive sideline because his own ship doesn't get improved.  

Edited by AlexW

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Give Vader his own title and then a more generic title. The Vader title will be badass but cost something while the other title(s) will be nice and be free.

 

and if vader ever pilots a different ship then it could also take that title...hmmm

Edited by GeneticDrift

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He needs buffing, but not to the same degree as the other advanced pilots. We want to see Vader hit the table more often, but we also want to see the Maarek and the generics hit the table occasionally as well. They can't buff the advanced in such a way that it leaves Vader so much better than the other 3 pilots that we still only ever see a Vader advanced on the table never the others. The goal, I would think, would be to make Vader at the solid "good, but not broke" level and the others at the high end of "Decent".

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He needs buffing, but not to the same degree as the other advanced pilots. We want to see Vader hit the table more often, but we also want to see the Maarek and the generics hit the table occasionally as well. They can't buff the advanced in such a way that it leaves Vader so much better than the other 3 pilots that we still only ever see a Vader advanced on the table never the others. The goal, I would think, would be to make Vader at the solid "good, but not broke" level and the others at the high end of "Decent".

 

The separation in points between Vader and the generics should be enough to do that already.  IE, Vader acts more as a centerpiece for the list while the generics are 21-25 support.   The notion of making Maarek good enough to take on his own, or an equal to Vader, is nearly impossible because their points are too close and Maarek's ability is pretty terrible.

Edited by AlexW

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Well. Didn't MJ say the thing was about 4.5 points over costed? Dang at 17 points for a long lasting fighter Id take that.

Yeah, the TIE Advanced is overcosted relative to a TIE Fighter by about 4 - 4.5 points. For reference the generic X-wing is probably overcosted relative to a TIE Fighter by about 2 - 2.5 points.

Any squad is going to be very efficient if you get nothing but ships for 100 points, so X-wings at 20 points would be perfectly fine if you were flying anything other than 5 Rookies.

Yeah. Straight out cheaper isn;t likely because then you have to deal with Vader. Overcosted ship but undercosted ability makes him pretty close to correct. Any fix for the advanced has to be accomplished in such a way as to not overpower Vader.

Its a difficult design dilemma.

Yeah. Vader is so much better than the other TIE Advanced that if they buff all the TIE Advanced equally, it's impossible to make the generics (and Maarek) playable without making Vader overpowered. It's quite a difficult design problem. I mentioned this on the NOVA podcast, but I think it might only be in the "extended" version. I got around this aspect in my house rules by just adjusting all the point values differently.

But how many of the ships I'm the game follow the efficiency model? I was just giving my two cents in the matter.

Ships with low efficiency (total efficiency, not jousting efficiency) pretty much always do poorly in tournaments, and ships with high efficiency do well in tournaments. So, I think that pretty much all of the ships follow the efficiency model. The model is less certain for ships that have unique capabilities, but still does a good job at predicting ship meta performance.

And I fully believe that we could receive a 1-2 point title or modification that could increase its efficiency moreso than its price. Such an upgrade would be undercosted on most other ships.

Well, it would certainly have to be TIE Advanced only, and if it costs positive points, then it's going to have to be a REALLY powerful upgrade, on the order of being worth 5 points.

MJ, I certainly didn't mean to discount your work. In fact, you know I have come to you directly for advice on occasion. Let me be more clear. Ships don't match a consistent point cost formula in comparison to the TIE Fighter. Based on jousting stats, many ships are indeed overcosted for various reasons, some of them clearer than others based on their upgrades, abilities, and effective usages.

And you caught my meaning on my last point quite well. I seriously doubt we will see a reduction on the Advanced, but if we were to for instance see a 0-1 point title that granted a new upgrade option as well as an increase in primary attack, it might alleviate some of that inefficiency and offset its cost. At the very least it may justify its similar cost to the X-wing.

Edited by Engine25

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Yeah. Straight out cheaper isn;t likely because then you have to deal with Vader. Overcosted ship but undercosted ability makes him pretty close to correct. Any fix for the advanced has to be accomplished in such a way as to not overpower Vader.

 

Its a difficult design dilemma.

Doesn't Vader's card technically say TIE Advanced X1 or whatever? So it's possible they could have a "TIE Advanced Only" card and rule that Vader can't use it.

 

But then, we're not talking about Autothrusters here. ;)

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MJ, I certainly didn't mean to discount your work. In fact, you know I have come to you directly for advice on occasion. Let me be more clear. Ships don't match a consistent point cost formula in comparison to the TIE Fighter. Based on jousting stats, many ships are indeed overcosted for various reasons, some of them clearer than others based on their upgrades, abilities, and effective usages.

 

Oh, certainly - I didn't exactly know what you meant by "following the efficiency model". When I look at how ships do compared to each other, I don't just look at the jousting values - I look at the far-less quoted total efficiency numbers, which include the dial, upgrades, etc.

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MJ, I certainly didn't mean to discount your work. In fact, you know I have come to you directly for advice on occasion. Let me be more clear. Ships don't match a consistent point cost formula in comparison to the TIE Fighter. Based on jousting stats, many ships are indeed overcosted for various reasons, some of them clearer than others based on their upgrades, abilities, and effective usages.

 

Oh, certainly - I didn't exactly know what you meant by "following the efficiency model". When I look at how ships do compared to each other, I don't just look at the jousting values - I look at the far-less quoted total efficiency numbers, which include the dial, upgrades, etc.

 

 

MJ, what do your numbers say about Vader specifically?  

I realize that two free actions is potent, but I still think/feel its quite overcosted at 29 points and two attack dice.  

What do the numbers really say?  

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MJ, I certainly didn't mean to discount your work. In fact, you know I have come to you directly for advice on occasion. Let me be more clear. Ships don't match a consistent point cost formula in comparison to the TIE Fighter. Based on jousting stats, many ships are indeed overcosted for various reasons, some of them clearer than others based on their upgrades, abilities, and effective usages.

 

Oh, certainly - I didn't exactly know what you meant by "following the efficiency model". When I look at how ships do compared to each other, I don't just look at the jousting values - I look at the far-less quoted total efficiency numbers, which include the dial, upgrades, etc.

 

 

MJ, what do your numbers say about Vader specifically?  

I realize that two free actions is potent, but I still think/feel its quite overcosted at 29 points and two attack dice.  

What do the numbers really say?  

 

 

I rarely do anything for the named pilots, but Vader was an easy one to get a rough estimate for. If you consider that his ability gives him a free TL every round, then his damage increases about 40%, which is pretty good. It works out to a PS1 jousting value of 18.8, vs 15.6 for a generic TIE Advanced. Vader's PS1 effective cost is 29-8=21, so using that metric, Vader is still overcosted by about 2 points. That's much better than 4 - 4.5 points for the generics, but still not great. This is assuming you are OK with spending 8 points on a PS bid for a basic ship.

 
In practice he should be slightly better, as you get the option of actions other than just TL.
 

And again, jousting value on a TIE Advanced is basically the same or even a hair higher than its net value. So fr TIE Advanced I'm lazy and just dig up the jousting numbers since it has nothing fancy.

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I like the idea of making the tie advanced even more defensively capable. Perhaps an automatic change of eyeballs to evades on a defensive die, like Luke? This would upgrade all ships significantly but would be arguably less useful on Vader who will likely have focused as one of his two actions anyway.

Autothrusters is probably defensive gunner or increase agility by 1 if outside of the firing arc of the ship shooting you. Likely the latter.

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Playing with rebel aces I thought the following: 

 

Interceptor title x A-wing title .... What is more advantageous? 

 

Two modifications x Two ept ... 

 

Push the limit "mandatory" in tie interceptor...

 

 

In my opinion (like playing with Imperial faction) ... the title of the tie Interceptor is more advantageous. Two good modifications are better than two EPT. But this time the title of the tie interceptor is not very advantageous for the simple fact that we now have far more EPT options than good modifications.

 

Options of modifications to restrict the interceptors are: 

 

Hull upgrade 

Shield upgrade 

stealth device 

targeting computer

 

So believe (after FFG disappointed for not releasing interesting modifications to the interceptors (and others ships) in wave 3, 4 and 5) that the "auto-thrusters" that will come with the Star Viper will be something that will replace Push the limit. 

 

Exactly what I do not know, but bet will work with boost and barrel roll (perhaps boost and barrel roll together).

 

And leave the EPT slot free to use predator, outmaneuver, etc... or Push the limit (the new FAQ came up with a better explanation of how it works push the limit in multiple actions) or other EPT which are many and not see game with tie intereceptors. 

 

So be it. A modification that will take the "mandatory" Push the limit in tie interceptors .

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My bet is that autothrusters let you reroll blanks on evade dice when your ships is out of enemy's arc.

 

 

If it was going to be something like that, I'd think it would let you reroll a single defense die when attacked but if you are outside of the attacker's firing arc you may reroll any defense die.

 

That makes it a sweet card to take against turrets but not a total waste of points if your opponent doesn't bring any. Since it's a mod it won't make the Phantom any tougher (though it might lead to some interesting options for generic Phantoms that eschew the ACD). I would worry that a card like that would make Defenders, E-Wings, and some of the beefier 3 agility scum ships (Staviper, IG-20000) far too tanky.

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IG-2000 would need the help. Dogfighting in a Large base is going to make it very tough to use.

Based on the spoiled PS6 pilot, the IG-2000 seems to be about the same price as a Defender but with an extra shield and hull. it swaps the barrel roll for boost picks up Evade as an action as well as System and Illicit slots.

I have trouble believing that the IG-2000 will need much in the way of help.

EDIT: Also, that S-Loop looks like some crazy **** right there.

Edited by WWHSD

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