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Ebak

Morality System - "Roleplay Policing"

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Like it or not, there is an inherent morality built into the Star Wars universe.  Certain things are good, certain things are bad.  As far as the strain penalty is concerned, it's probably the best mechanical means to show what must be the obvious stress of holding on to anger, hatred, and rage, three things we know cause stress (and therefore strain) in real life.  And as far as a wound bonus for Light Side goes (I was under the impression it was a strain bonus, but whatever), we all know that when people perform selfless deeds, they often have bursts of adrenaline and can do more than they normally do.

 

Also... if you don't like it, remove it at your table.  All the rules are only suggestions, anyway.

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I may be alone in this, but I think the lack of bite for going dark as well as the flexibility as far as how much bad stuff you can do before really tanking your Morality score is a feature rather than a bug. 

 

I'm actually with you.  I like that there are degrees of going Dark Side, and that it isn't a single choice that puts you there.  I also appreciate the possibility characters have at redemption.

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It's the intent that matters. You gain 10 conflict if you murder someone…but none if you kill them in self defense. One of the 1 Conflict triggers is listed as:

 

Cool, as long as there's some baseboard of examples for GM's to bounce things off then it'll save a lot of (arbitrary) decisions that will come up around the table and would cut into game time with "arguing semantics time", which is what I was more worried about having to deal with.

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And you don't instantly fall to the dark side.  You have to consistently make dark side choices to fall to the dark side.  So you can very easily play in the grey areas if you want.  You can throw in difficult moral choices all you want (something I like to do as well).

The system doesn't punish players but adds some consequences for player actions.  Yes, if characters continually make dark side choices then they will suffer some negative consequences but that's part of falling to the dark side.

As I mentioned just above, even consistently making "Dark Side" choices, as long as they aren't truly terrible (Murder, Torture, Wanton Destruction) you'll still likely increase in Morality.

The average roll on a d10 is 5.5, as long as my "Sith" keeps himself out of terrible trouble (ie only lying for gain, resorting violence first, the occasional theft) he's likely to increase by 2-4 Morality per session.

Wow, that will even allow him to totally straight out murder someone every 5 sessions with nary a penalty. Heck he can even be Morality 90+ and not even blink.

The more I discuss this the more I think that is the biggest flaw in this Morality Mechanic. It will be rewarding both "Good" and "Shady" and only really penalizing the "Monsterous" (and the party said Monsterous person is in).

 

Like it or not, there is an inherent morality built into the Star Wars universe.

Yes there is. However there is an argument as to whether it's a subjective or abjective Morality, also whether the physical frailities of Vader (having to rely on cybernetics) and Palpatine (age and infirmity) were caused by behavior or from the stress of channeling the Dark Side (I'm ignoring the Prequel movies for this side discussion).

Part of the old lore of the SW universe held that Vader was power hungry and was upgrading himself with cyberware, becoming "more machine than man" and that this was also part of his "fall from grace". This works in with the notion that channeling the DS, an easy/fast way to power, causes physical deterioration (which is partially tossed out in the prequels).

This is something I'd like to play with.

 

As far as the strain penalty is concerned, it's probably the best mechanical means to show what must be the obvious stress of holding on to anger, hatred, and rage, three things we know cause stress (and therefore strain) in real life.

And how does that narrative fit the dispassionate killer? Is he immune from gaining Conflict points becuase he doesn't care?

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Oh, you're one of THOSE kind of players.  Maybe we should explore other obvious problems, then.

  • What does firing a pistol have to do with tossing a grenade?
  • What does shooting a rifle have to do with shooting a bow?
  • Why is shooting a bow suddenly more like shooting a pistol if you change arrows?

... should we continue?

 

Systems aren't perfect.  If you don't like it, discard it at your table.

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Anyway, in game terms, Morality is whatever the Force decides.  And it seems pretty clear from the movies that rage and hate and power-dominance is "dark", whereas fibs and small lies and a bit of manipulation aren't terrible if they're even noticed at all.

 

 

I was approaching the discussion from two particular Ethical theories-

Consequentialism and Deontology

 

In this case, it looks like the system is based on Deontology where Immanuuel Kant argued that it wasn't the consequences of actions that make them right or wrong, but the motives of the person who carries out the action.

As opposed to Consequentialism which has the 'the end justifies the means', but argues who benefits from the consequences of a moral action.

 

The latter in particular if we're talking 'Morality' is often more common at the table in RPG's I've found, where you will get players aiming for a concrete outcome, rather than questioning the ways and means of achieving it.

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@ MKX This is not about policing anyone. It is a gauge to see how light or dark your character is. If you are light, then you get certain bonuses to a few things, and if you are dark, the same thing.

And here you expose your failure to grasp the simple rules.

Wow, That is quite the exceptional retort. I bow to your use and power of the English language. You have exposed me for what I am. A big fat phony and a fraud.

This will be my last post as I have been wrong and discovered. I will now delete my FFG account, I will burn all my SW RPG books, and give away my SW collection.

You continue to astound me evileyesore.

I am not an expert in this game, nor do I claim to be one. I am certainly not an expert in FaD, as I just got my book in the mail, and still not done reading it. I am not here to say this is the best game system, the best Light/Dark side system, or to tell anyone that they have to love this game/system. I do have a problem when people state their wrong ideas as fact, which you have done on numerous occasions. If you don't like the game/system/classes/force or whatever, it does not matter to me, and there is nothing I can do to change that, nor will I try to. I might as well as try to change your religious views. But please don't go spouting your negative hyperbole as facts about this game.

This Force system is NOT a policing tool or to tell anyone in the game that they can only play one type of character. (which is your claim)

As to the rules:

Paragons of the Light Side get one free Destiny point (sunny side up) before the rest of the Destiny pool is rolled for the group. FACT

Paragons of the Light Side get an additional Strain Threshold of +1 if their score is 80+/+2 at 90+ FACT

There in no mention of Wound Threshold increases.

Paragon of the Dark Side turn ONE sunny side up Destiny Point to the Dark Side after the Destiny pool is rolled.

They get -1 Strain threshold at 20- and -2 ST at 10-.

I fail to see how I am not grasping the simple rules here. (But i can see how you are...)

As to the fact that there are more Dark faces on the Force Die, being able to use them seems as small bonus in my opinion.

Again, these are all facts, except my opinion about the Force Die, as I said. But the rest are FACTS, not my deluded thoughts on how much this sucks. Is it a good system, that i can't say on yet. Could it have been better? Again, I have no opinion on that. The Original topic was was this going to be used to "Police" the players and characters, so please stay on topic.

As to your stating that you will never buy the books. yes, that does irritate me some. It irritates me that you so boldly make the claim like some kind of honor badge. I can only take take it that you support the illegal piracy of these materials, and since you said you "have this book" it can only mean that you have an illegal PDF of it, and you don't even have the intent to ever buy it. So yes, that is pretty low and despicable in my opinion.

Edited by R2builder

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I fail to see how I am not grasping the simple rules here. (But i can see how you are...)

As to the fact that there are more Dark Pips on the Force Die, being able to use them seems as small bonus in my opinion. 

 

Minor correction:  There are more Dark Side faces on a Force die, but there are exactly the same number of pips.

 

Dark Side: 1 face with 2 pips, 6 faces with 1 pip each = 8 pips.

Light Side: 3 faces with 2 pips each, 2 faces with 1 pip each = 8 pips.

 

The advantage of using the Dark Side is simply that your pips are more likely to come up.  The advantage of using Light Side is that you're more likely to get two pips on a roll.

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Personally I feel that for starters, this is a beta so problems with the system mechanically (like the idea of your morality not changing due to only performing minor evil acts every so often) can be fixed with attuned adjustments to the figures. Not that FFG haven't tested this already of course. They obviously feel that is the way they want to go with the mechanic.

 

Furthermore the strengths and weaknesses introduce emotions into things where players will usually think logically about actions at times.

 

As for you evileeyore, to me you are not welcome here. You have a problem with the game system and marketing strategy so much that you 'refuse to buy the books' and so presumably result to piracy. That is just not allowable and acceptable, there are people at FFG who work hard to earn a living wage and its leeches like you who create the monsters like Games Workshop and other companies who have to recompense their losses elsewhere. These people work hard for the money they earn, they are rich, they aren't rolling in it. Yet you should be able to put down the money for all three core rulebooks, yet you won't because you don't agree with the system. However that doesn't stop you from getting the books and using them via illicit methods does it?

 

You don't like that they reprint 2/3rds of the book as you say, I get that. I still purchased Age of Rebellion because I wanted the fluff from the Rebellion segment as well as that 1/3rd that wasn't reprinted. The entire ethos around the games are 'separate but compatible games'. Is it a money making scheme? I won't lie and say that it definitely works out financially well for them. However I'd rather buy 3 books over 3 years than buy one book and wait for 3 whole years until I even get a glimpse of it.

 

Edge of the Empire has already have different items released for it in the last year, books and add-ons that have propelled its game system forward with new rules, concepts, specs and more. While AOR starts with just the standard stuff.

 

If we waited for 3 years, suddenly we get this massive great big book plonked down in front of us...and then have to wait even longer for every new class book to come out. The current model gets the game out faster, keeps it moving faster, always in the public eye (game wise at least) and moving forward. If you don't want to buy all 3 core rulebooks...fine, just buy the adventure and sourcebooks, but don't come crying and *****ing to us when you want Jedi force power mechanics and then can't because it means having to buy one of the core rulebooks. You don't buy the book, you don't own the book, you have no right to include any material from said book in your game.

 

Don't come here and flaunt your ideals as noble. You are stealing, plain and simple. You can't say you are not buying any of the books and then pirate said books to get the content of said books. That is stealing and whether you like it or not it is morally and legally wrong. For that you get -20 conflict, I'd love to see you roll a 20 on your D10...

 

So sit down and plonk your money down, or go. We don't want leeches here who are attempting to justify why they can pirate a book for anything other than reasons of greed. You want it, but it, otherwise you shouldn't have it, shouldn't be able to use it and to be quite frank should be barred from this forum because of it.

 

Edit: Wow...I really went all out huh? I guess I should explain. I'm someone who trained as a game designer so I know how little they make and how difficult it is to make it in the industry. So it really irks me when I see people taking advantage of the hard work for little pay that these people produce.

Edited by Ebak

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Oh, you're one of THOSE kind of players.

What type is that? You mentioned a narrative (to explain the strain penalty for going DS) and I responded by giving an equally "Evil" character that falls outside your narrative. Unless you're responding in general to my "questioning the rules"?

Then yes, I'm one of those pesky types that looks at the rules, breaks them down, tries to see where they fail, where they succeed, and how to make them better (or if it's even worth it).

 

Maybe we should explore other obvious problems, then.

  • What does firing a pistol have to do with tossing a grenade?
  • What does shooting a rifle have to do with shooting a bow?
  • Why is shooting a bow suddenly more like shooting a pistol if you change arrows?
... should we continue?

 

In a different thread, sure. Infact there is one talking about subbing Athletics in for pretty much exactly those reasons...

 

Systems aren't perfect.  If you don't like it, discard it at your table.

Sigh. I really hate kool-aid drinkers.

I come here because I know I'll find people with different ideas than those that sit at my table and hopefully we can engage in some good discussion, break the rules apart, see where they works, etc.

Heck, we even get designers popping in on some threads and I can see how they think things work! That's rare in a gaming messageboard.

 

Wow, That is quite the exceptional retort. I bow to your use and power of the English language. You have exposed me for what I am. A big fat phony and a fraud.

Thanks. I like to meet hyberbolic nonsense with hyberbolic nonsense.

 

This will be my last post as I have been wrong and discovered. I will now delete my FFG account, I will burn all my SW RPG books, and give away my SW collection.

YAY!  yay_zpsadf4cee8.gif

No, wait, he probably doesn't mean it.... angelloosewings_zps24493970.gif

 

This Force system is NOT a policing tool or to tell anyone in the game that they can only play one type of character. (which is your claim)

No it isn't. I've never made any such claim.

My claim is the mechanic is a reward/punishment system and is poorly designed.

 

I fail to see how I am not grasping the simple rules here. (But i can see how you are...)

Reconcile this statement:

If you are light, then you get certain bonuses to a few things, and if you are dark, the same thing.

With the rules as they actually work:

Light Side Paragons:

2 benes; Strain Threshold Increase, additional Light Destiny token added to the pool

NO PENALITES

Dark Side Renegades:

2 penalties; Strain Threshold reduced, 1 Light Destiny token flipped after pool is established.

Possible Dark Side Bene: get to use DS pips to generate Force Points (dubious)*

Where are the "few bonuses" DSers are getting? How is this "the same thing"?**   :blink: 

*To be honest I'd call it neither bene nor penalty, there are more sides but less chance of rolling 2 pips.

** Yes, I get in your haste to "slam me" you messed up the rules. But it was fun rubbing your nose in it, just as you try/do in return. ;)

 

The Original topic was was this going to be used to "Police" the players and characters, so please stay on topic.

Why? Because you said so? BAH! Bah I say!

For me this thread has become a place to toss around notional ideas (I haven't even really delved to hard into the LS/DS morass) and see what shakes loose. Or to challenge some "hardliners" to see if they can say something to give me an idea or a new way of looking at the rules.

 

As to your stating that you will never buy the books. yes, that does irritate me some. It irritates me that you so boldly make the claim like some kind of honor badge. I can only take take it that you support the illegal piracy of these materials, and since you said you "have this book" it can only mean that you have an illegal PDF of it, and you don't even have the intent to ever buy it. So yes, that is pretty low and despicable in my opinion.

Nit pick: It only becomes illegal if I share or sell it. You can rest easily tonight knowing I won't be doing that. At some point the guy in group who loves SW more than he loves money will be buying this book (and probably the pdf if FFG releases one)

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Oh great, a convenient loophole allows you to 'own' the book and use the book without actually paying for said book. I still think its downright deplorable. You either stick to your guns and don't get the books out of principle for your dislike of the marketing strategy. Or you buy the books. You can't have your cake and eat it too. There has to be a consequence for your getting on your high horse and making some sort of stand against a companies marketing strategy. Yet the only one who suffers is FFG and not you...how convenient.

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Personally I feel that for starters, this is a beta so problems with the system mechanically...

I've been under the impression the only difference between the "Beta" book and the "Final Release" is pictures?

If that's not true...

 

..you have a problem with the game system and marketing strategy so much that you 'refuse to buy the books' and so presumably result to piracy.

Semi-correct, semi-false.

I have some problems with some of the rules. All that does is cause me to question the rules (the reason I'm in here) and to make house rules after getting some ideas (if I run the game). Dislike of a few rules out of the many has never stopped me from buying a game if I plan to support it.

Dislike of the ... marketing strategy is why I'm not giving FFG my money. My dislike for this turn towards "the dark side of marketing" started with the way they handled X-Wing Miniatures (splitting the cards up so you have to buy packs you might otherwise not want)*. It was cemented with the reprinting of the entirety of the core rules across three books.

I felt the same way about Magic the Gathering and dropped it like a bad habit at one point. So it's not just FFG... I get this aversion to this sort of marketing style else where too.

* Will this marketing style work for them? So far it seems to. X-wing hasn't "picked" up in my area, it briefly had it's 15 minutes in the sun, but where I live it would take something incredible to unseat MtG.

 

That is just not allowable and acceptable, there are people at FFG who work hard to earn a living wage and its leeches like you who create the monsters like Games Workshop and other companies who have to recompense their losses elsewhere.

What? GW does what it does (cyclical print cycles, power ramping across splatbooks, discontinuing old miniatures, creating new miniatures, etc) to sell product. I grew tired of them as well and eventually stopped buying their products. I do still play the ones I own on occasion with other like minded "and here we stopped buying new crap" types (or just people who like Mordenheim and Necromunda).

 

You don't like that they reprint 2/3rds of the book as you say, I get that.

Basically.

Had they say... printed a Core Rules book, just the rules, how to make characters, equipment, ships, Adversaires, and the like; but left out Careers and genre specific rules (Obligation, Duty, Morality). Priced it for the size it would have been, say 40$ (with pics). Then made similiar "Core" genres books, properly sized and priced (say 20$) with just the Careers and genre specifics (maybe toss a few extras in like some ships or more specific Adversaries)...

They'd probably be getting just as much money and my moneys too. And I'd blithely ignore the "splat happy" nonsense and buy the genre Cores and the genre Splats, and not be bothered one whit.

I'm not gonna lie and say it makes sense, but the bold faced lucre driven manner of what they are doing... sigh.

 

We don't want leeches here who are attempting to justify why they can pirate a book for anything other than reasons of greed.

Hmm. It wasn't greed. Not that that matters, but I won't be profitting from having aquired it (not monetarily anyway, a case can be made I'll 'profit' in ideas though).

 

You want it, but it, otherwise you shouldn't have it, shouldn't be able to use it and to be quite frank should be barred from this forum because of it.

Or.. you know, I could do what I'm doing to gain the other books... borrowing them from the guy who is buying them.

As I've said, at some point he'll pivk up the non-Beta F&D. I don't envy him his lightened wallet (but then I can cast no stones, I'm a few thousand into buying GURPS books and pdfs, sigh).

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If your not stealing them and only borrowing them, fair enough.

 

I don't agree with your opinions and perspectives regarding what is morally right for a company. A company needs to take steps to make a profit. I play both X-Wing and the Star Wars RPG line so I know what both sides of the coin are like.

 

When it comes to X-Wing, I buy the ships I want for not only the ships but the card. Yes if I wanted Adv. Sensors in the past, I had to suck it up and buy a shuttle. Annoying, partly. Underhanded, hardly. There has to be a drive to buy ships, if every ship came with every card, it wouldn't matter which ship you'd buy. In 'forcing' you to buy another ship it expands your arsenal of ships. I have yet to regret a purchase of X-Wing or the Star Wars RPG line. Both of those games are exploding in my area, I'm running 3 different RPG groups each one with 5+ in them. The X-Wing meetup in my city is reaching 17 members. That may not sound like a lot but when you consider the warhammer night consist of 4 people. It is fairly impressive in comparison.

 

What they do is bolt face lucrative, however that is what a company exists to do. A company exists to make money from its customers, a company is not required to give stuff for free, nor are customers obligated to buy from said company. There has to be some give or take. It is extremely profitable for them, however it is equally profitable for us, it's not like we are getting nothing, we know exactly what we are buying and purchasing, that is never hidden from us, nor are we told otherwise.

 

Can they sell the cards for X-Wing and the classes separate from a 'core rule' set. Certainly they could, however logistically that may end up costing them more money than it would make them. Furthermore, the cards that come with said ships are usually related to what that ship can do. Adv. Sensors was included with the Shuttle because the shuttle is a good blocking ship and adv. sensors removes the disadvantage of bumping and losing your action. Did people anticipate how popular it would be, maybe, maybe not. All we know is what happened, its something you have to come to terms with as a gamer. Do you want to have fun and pay out for that fun or would you rather prefer to scrimp and save?

 

I love X-Wing, I enjoy playing X-Wing my fleet is ever expanding. I have come to terms that sometimes there will be cards that only come with one ship, however most of the time I want more than one of those ships anyway so it works out. Plus FFG do listen to feedback. People were upset that Interceptors did not get Push the Limit included with them and people had to buy A-Wings to get them. FFGs feedback. Provide not one but two PtL cards in the Imperial Aces set.

 

Your idea about a 'core rulebook' is indeed an interesting one...but I think in the end it comes down to logistics. With the current CRBs you can run a game from the simple single purchase of that one book. If you have it become a modular thing where you have to buy the standard core rules and then a 'setting' book or whatever you'd call it for the Edge/Age/Force stuff which included all the base classes, races etc. Then it would put people off thinking "Oh...I have to buy two books, the core rules and the fluff book?" it makes it a messy affair whereas the idea of just being able to buy that one book and that's it is one thing that people appreciate. It takes out a potential conflict headache. Also gets rid of the logistical problem of "What if they have the fluff book but sold out of the core rules?"

 

All in all the current system they have in place is in my opinion logistically sound, financially sound for both FFG and the player (its one CRB a year people...seriously in 12 months you put aside £39.99?)

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Had they say... printed a Core Rules book, just the rules, how to make characters, equipment, ships, Adversaires, and the like; but left out Careers and genre specific rules (Obligation, Duty, Morality). Priced it for the size it would have been, say 40$ (with pics). Then made similiar "Core" genres books, properly sized and priced (say 20$) with just the Careers and genre specifics (maybe toss a few extras in like some ships or more specific Adversaries)...

They'd probably be getting just as much money and my moneys too. And I'd blithely ignore the "splat happy" nonsense and buy the genre Cores and the genre Splats, and not be bothered one whit.

 

I think you're missing a few things and need some perspective.  First, the full-fluff core books cost more to produce, so their margins wouldn't have been different if they did it your way.  It wasn't a cash-grab.  However, they did get a fully playable game into one book right from the start, which is critical if the game is to generate immediate adoption and have any long-term success.  Just MHO, but for most people who go to a store to buy a game, the last thing they want is to have to research all the things they really need just to play.  Only hard-core gamers tolerate this kind of fragmentation.

-edit: I see Ebak beat me to this...

 

Second, they are still tweaking rules.  This is a complicated system and I imagine the amount of work that goes into play testing and modifying is intense.  I don't mind paying for those tweaks.

 

Third, making rules for the Force is really hard to do.  Every game before this has pretty much sucked.  From what I know of WEG, because of the dice mechanic your Force-using character was terrible at the start, enjoyed a brief period of reasonable success, and then quickly owned the game.  D20 was terrible, too many powers, and I totally despised the deck-of-cards mechanic in Saga and, again, the multitude of powers that were entirely too narrow in scope.  During the purgatory between WotC dropping it and FFG picking it up, I saw and helped work on several Force mechanics using nWoD as a base...and really they all sucked too.

 

So I'm really happy they took this long with it, and offered it in a separate book.  That's two solid years of testing a critical core mechanic, all of which makes for a better product in the end.

Edited by whafrog

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I'm afraid you have your concepts mixed up, evileeyore.  A "Kool-Aid Drinker" is a "one true way"-ist, meaning that they will say you must do things their way, because it's the only right way.  It calls back to 1978 mass suicide of the followers of Jim Jones, in which Jones and 909 members of his flock killed themselves by drinking poisoned Flavor-Aid (not Kool-Aid as most people believe) because Jones said so - and his way was law.

 

I, on the other hand, gave possible explanations for why things were done a certain way, then I said - twice now! - play your own way, remove the rules you don't like since they're suggestions anyway.  Those aren't the words of a Kool-Aid drinker.  

 

Of course, there is someone in this thread who keeps telling everyone how wrong they are, and that their way is right...

 

Hmm...

Edited by Simon Fix

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Your idea about a 'core rulebook' is indeed an interesting one...but I think in the end it comes down to logistics. With the current CRBs you can run a game from the simple single purchase of that one book.

I understand that's what they say there reason is.

 

If you have it become a modular thing where you have to buy the standard core rules and then a 'setting' book or whatever you'd call it for the Edge/Age/Force stuff which included all the base classes, races etc. Then it would put people off thinking "Oh...I have to buy two books, the core rules and the fluff book?"

I started thinking about other games and the way they put together their books... and really only White Wolf did a "core rules" and then genre specific books* (and lots and lots of splats).

D&D, two core books; one for "rules", one for characters, and then splats (lots and lots of splats). That's basically how everyone else does it.

Hmmm.

 

I think you're missing a few things and need some perspective.  First, the full-fluff core books cost more to produce, so their margins wouldn't have been different if they did it your way.  It wasn't a cash-grab.  However, they did get a fully playable game into one book right from the start, which is critical if the game is to generate immediate adoption and have any long-term success.  Just MHO, but for most people who go to a store to buy a game, the last thing they want is to have to research all the things they really need just to play.  Only hard-core gamers tolerate this kind of fragmentation.

-edit: I see Ebak beat me to this...

Let me point to the 800 pound gorilla of gaming: D&D.

Explain to WotC or Piazo how they should "make one core book because no one wants to buy more than one book or have to "research" what they need to buy".

How is it D&D can draw all the new players when they are flagrantly violating this premise?

Simple: They label one book "Player's Guide" so the newbs know what to buy.

Or more likely, the newbies are being introduced to gaming by old timers... which is likely how the majority of newbies are being introduced to FFG SW. I get that FFG might want to break away from that, but as long as they are only seeing shelf space in "gaming stores" ... that ain't gonna happen.

 

Third, making rules for the Force is really hard to do.

Really? I think GURPS handles it okay (FATE too).

Sure there's no Morality involved outside of the ST hitting the characters with "and here there be consequences"... but really, magical hand-wavy powers aren't hard to do.

I agree completely with WEG being a bit wonk and d20 being utter garbage.

Now if you mean "balance" a Force User and a non-Force User, yeah, that's hard to do (FATE kinda comes closeish). I'm not sure if FFG has hit it. I'll have to see how things play out in game.

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I don't have a horse in this race beyond the belief that if you think something isn't worth the money, don't buy it. Don't steal it, either. I'm a pretty big fan of speaking with your wallet.

Anyway, this is my favorite version of a Star Wars RPG and I'm very happy with it!

Edited by Alderaan Crumbs

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I'd rather FFG hire me. :P

 

As for your argument about D&D. It is the 800 hundred Gorilla of RPGs and has been for many years. However it doesn't mean to say that its system of the Core Rulebook and the Players Guide is the best set up out there.

 

There are many people who probably have never played D&D, or another RPG for that matter, and had no interest in playing an RPG until they saw that there was an RPG with the name 'Star Wars' on it. I know there is someone in my area who felt that way. When you have something that is ingrained in our culture like Star Wars, people tend to gravitate towards it and even buy it because of the branding.

 

For that reason I again think that their reason about the three separate game lines with one core book that is your essential quick start guide is a perfect model. Someone who is a hardcore RPG expert can buy the cores and the splatbooks. Whereas someone just starting out can buy the beginner game and one core book and start the experience from that purchase without having to consider buying other books just to leap into the game.

 


I understand that's what they say there reason is.

It definitely is a good reason, the implication that they are doing it just to earn money is a little unfair, of course its to earn money. However it's not blatant. Especially when you consider the quality of the books that you buy. The Saga Edition core rulebook was less pages (just under half!) than FFGs core rule book alone and yet cost more!

If their objective was to rather cynically earn the most amount of cash, they could have really pumped up the price of their core book, yet they didn't. They price it at a rather reasonable cost in my opinion. Not sure about the US, but here in the UK the core book costs £39.99, that's just about the same price as a video game. A very reasonable price for such a good and open game that has almost limitless potential.

 

So while I think it would be niaeve to think they don't want to earn money, I do think they consider their customers and the cost carefully rather than just thinking "We can milk their wallets." Which is a good stance from a company to take. Some may argue they are milking it with the splatbooks, but what RPG doesn't do splatbooks, plus they need to keep revenue up and even then the splatbooks have a decent pricing system.

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As for your argument about D&D. It is the 800 hundred Gorilla of RPGs and has been for many years. However it doesn't mean to say that its system of the Core Rulebook and the Players Guide is the best set up out there.

Agreed. I'm no fan of the D&D system. But it's hard arguing that they are doing something wrong when they are the top share(s*) in the rpg market (*if you insist on separating Piazo and WotC).

 

There are many people who probably have never played D&D, or another RPG for that matter, and had no interest in playing an RPG until they saw that there was an RPG with the name 'Star Wars' on it.

Sure and I know people who started with Vampire and some who have done no other roleplaying than LARP.

I still think going Core+Genre books would have been "better". Heck since they insist on the whole "Beginner Game" thing, they could easily have the Beginner Game tell players, "From here you pick up the Core Rules and 'Genre Book' to continue your adventures". That's what a Beginner book is about.

(Also the Beginner Game should not get the rules wrong. There was no reason to "simplify" the rules to the extent that several instances taught my group to do things incorrectly for a few session (regaining strain, repairing ships, etc).)

 

Someone who is a hardcore RPG expert can buy the cores and the splatbooks. Whereas someone just starting out can buy the beginner game and one core book and start the experience from that purchase without having to consider buying other books just to leap into the game.

This line of reasoning always rings hollow for me.

We were all "newbs" once. Did we all suffer terribly under the strain of trying to figure out "what to buy"? Why then imagine new players these days being so much dumber than we were?

 

However it's not blatant.

To me it smacks of it. But then I've a much lower tolerance for it (I'm a bit skinflinty to everything not SJGames... and even then I spurn their blatant money grabbing with the way they are doing the new Car Wars... grumble)

 

Especially when you consider the quality of the books that you buy.

I will grant you the quality is exceptional. Nice smattering of pictures, sets the right tone, etc. I'm not down with the background nonsense on each page (the "recycled paper" look) as it makes it harder to photocopy charts and such, but that's just a bit of nonsense all the game publishers are doing these days*... (grumble, grumble, where's my cane... get off my lawn!)

* I hate to say it but... except for GURPS. There are reasons I'm such a **** fanboy for SJGames, and "clean page" aesthetics are probably one of them.

 

Not sure about the US, but here in the UK the core book costs £39.99, that's just about the same price as a video game. A very reasonable price for such a good and open game that has almost limitless potential.

Let's not discuss how my white hot rage with the video game industry and it's "we're only going to rent you your games" nonsense they're trying to get going. I spend far, far less on video games than I do rpg's to the point I probably only buy 1 maybe 2 games a year. Edited by evileeyore

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For example in Edge. I'm a force user, and I'm going to use move to pull the gun from the mooks hand. I roll up the Force Points I need. Yippie, I did it. Nope, the GM now says roll Discipline to do it.?!?!? Wha? Where did that come from. "Well, I just feel that the mook should be able to resist you, because that's how it was in WEG, CR, RCR, and Saga." Great, then go play one of this effing games! This rule book says nothing about opposed discipline checks for that.

Two things:

1 - That has nothing to do with ditching classes. That's a disagreement between your reading of the rules and your GM's intentions. That sort of stuff should be hashed out before play begins.

2 - By the reading of the Control upgrade (and the concept of Move in general) all it does is "What you could do with your hands, without needing to use your hands" (I'm not getting into tossing starships about here). The rules for Move don't say you can automagically disarm your foes, that's normally something that can only be accomplished with Triumphs (or a leinent GM allowing a Melee attack to forgo damage for a disarm). Personally I'd rule for sort of thing, yeah, it would be opposed. But then I'd also have a discussion with the Player in advance about what sort of hijinks he thinks he can get away with using the Force and we'd negotiate how the Force works in our game.
 

It's funny, that you call me out for not "sticking" to a topic, but when i do it to you I get the: I do what I want, you can't control me blah blah type of thing. Hmm, perhaps you should treat others as you wish to be treated for starters. It's funny though, I told you to stay on topic just to see if I could get a rise out of you,, and it worked. But on to more important things, like just how dense you are my friend. 

 

 

 

 

 

If you are light, then you get certain bonuses to a few things, and if you are dark, the same thing.

With the rules as they actually work:

Light Side Paragons:
2 benes; Strain Threshold Increase, additional Light Destiny token added to the pool
NO PENALITES

Dark Side Renegades:
2 penalties; Strain Threshold reduced, 1 Light Destiny token flipped after pool is established.
Possible Dark Side Bene: get to use DS pips to generate Force Points (dubious)*

Where are the "few bonuses" DSers are getting? How is this "the same thing"?**   :blink: 


 

Um, man, you really need spelled out for you. Ok, IF you are a Dark Side Paragon, yes you take a negative on your ST. This "bonus" I speak of is; you get to turn a light destiny point to the dark side, you no longer have to spend Strain to use the Dark Side pips, and there is a slightly better chance that one will roll dark side pips on the Force Die. Yes, that is the "bonus" to being a dark sider. Granted, I do not think it is a great bonus, but it there nonetheless. 

I did say "certain bonus to a few things", not "a few bonuses".  I did not say being a DS guy grants all kinds of cool crap. 

 

 

 

*To be honest I'd call it neither bene nor penalty, there are more sides but less chance of rolling 2 pips.
** Yes, I get in your haste to "slam me" you messed up the rules. But it was fun rubbing your nose in it, just as you try/do in return. ;)

 

 

In my "haste to "slam you"? WTF are you talking about here? Are you that mentally challenged ? Now, yes that was a slam directed at you. If you look at the full original quote from me it was directed directly to MKX, not you! How was i trying/doing this rubbing your nose in it? I now firmly believe you a moron. 

 
 
@ MKX This is not about policing anyone. It is a gauge to see how light or dark your character is. If you are light, then you get certain bonuses to a few things, and if you are dark, the same thing. Not too much different than KTOR and TOR really. 
 

But it was actually you in your oh so quick attempt to slam me and prove me wrong that you actually got it wrong. 

 

 

@ MKX This is not about policing anyone. It is a gauge to see how light or dark your character is. If you are light, then you get certain bonuses to a few things, and if you are dark, the same thing.

And here you expose your failure to grasp the simple rules.

Going Dark Side is nothing but penalties. Which is completely different than "then you get certian bonuses to a few things". There are no bonuses to going Dark Side... Okay, maybe generating Force Points from the DS results on the Force Die could be considered a "bonus", since there are more DS sides but that's a nebulous "bonus". Balanced with a reduction in Strain Threshold and increasing the number of Dark Destiny tokens (by flipping a Light Destiny)? Not worth it.

Contrarily, Light Siders gain Wound Threshold and increase the number of Light Destiny tokens by straight out adding one.
 

 

Again, I am not talking about how great this system is or is not, I am just stating the facts of this system. If you don't like it great! I don't give a rats ass. But don't claim this is only about punishing Dark Siders and that you "cant play the evil Sith Empire". This is nothing of the sort. 

 

As to this thing you have where you feel or think a certain way makes it true is horribly incorrect. 

 

 

Nit pick: It only becomes illegal if I share or sell it. You can rest easily tonight knowing I won't be doing that. At some point the guy in group who loves SW more than he loves money will be buying this book (and probably the pdf if FFG releases one)

 

NO! Piracy is not what you think it is then. IF you HAVE an illegal PDF of the FFG Copyrighted FaD Beta book, then you are breaking the law. It is not the "intent to share or sell it" that makes it illegal, it is an unauthorized reproduction that makes it illegal. If you steal my wallet, it is still illegal even if you have no intent to "share" it with anyone... Downloading/owning it is illegal.  If you downloaded it from a torrent site, then it was shared by you, if a friend emailed you a copy, it is still illegal to download/own or posses it because it is an illegal copy of copyrighted material. 

So lets go over the facts here.

You stated you will never by the books

You stated your GM will only buy the Finished product, not the Beta

You stated you are reading the FaD Beta book

You stated that I can rest easy because you are not "sharing" it. 

 

I really hope the mods read this and ban you for piracy. 

 

Please never respond to any of my threads, posts or use my postings in your posts, threads, or quotes. I will give you the same curiosity. 

 

And finally, for anyone interested here is a quote about copy rights from https://acomp.stanford.edu/info/dmca:

 

"Original expressions of ideas are copyrighted for a certain period of time (generally the lifetime of the author, plus 70 years), including such mundane works as the papers you write for class. Copyrighted materials are everywhere around you: songs, movies, TV shows, photographs, magazines, books, software, plays and Web sites are just a few things that are subject to copyright protection. Although it has not always been the case, today copyright applies automatically to works upon their creation, and it is not necessary (although there are good reasons) to register the copyright to be afforded copyright protection.

The copyright of a work gives the holder a limited monopoly on reproduction, distribution, and display of that work. When you buy or are given a copyrighted work, you get limited use of it, but not the right to distribute it. So, you can listen to your CD, read your book, and watch your movie, and even lend the original to a friend, but you can't give a copy to your friend without permission from (and generally payment to) the copyright holder. You can play a recent song on the piano (assuming you know how), but you can't perform it for an audience without permission. In the Internet domain, it is probably OK to make a copy of the CD you bought so that you can listen to songs on your iPod or other portable digital music player, but its NOT OK to give that song to your friend without permission from the copyright owner, or allow it to be shared on a P2P system that will give others access to the song without paying for it. And, it is NOT OK to download copyrighted songs, movies, books or images for your personal enjoyment without paying for them (unless you have the express permission from the copyright owner)."

Edited by R2builder

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