Are the rebels simply better?

[Droofus 321]

The sheer number of different ships on each side make the differences a lot less clear than the used to be.   The old adage, "Rebels have firepower and shields, Imperials have agility and numbers" really doesn't hold true any more.  You've got Z95s bulking out the rebel side with numbers and only 5 of 8 imperial ships that have shields.

 

Try playing with some different lists.   It is possible to take a fully shielded, high firepower imperial list if that is what you want.

[Hobojebus 11,341]

 

It takes more than a minute to play the game...  and you definitely can't play 5 games in just a minute unless your just that horrible at the game

"Nothing goes over my head, my reflexes are too fast!" 

A minute is a commonly used expression for "a while"

 

I've never heard it and i'm active on several international forums, where in the world is it common?

[YwingAce 2,546]

No. [1]

 

 

[1]: Tie Swarms, Tie Phantoms, Squints, FireSprays (most survivable ship in the game), Defenders. Brights are beyond me, not bright enough to figure out how to use those (besides Vader + EU + Outmaneuver).

 

btw I like your sig Vimnok, Mandalorians FTW!!!!

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

 

 

Also if you want to get Mathwing about it, statistically speaking you are more likely to lose a match because of bad rolling with Imperials then you are with Rebels...

That's not true, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

 

Fell getting one-shot at range 3 through an asteroid is hardly a rare story to hear.

That's the key part of the high-risk, high-reward playstyle of Imperial fighters like the Interceptor and Phantom. Their low hull means that as soon as someone with a 3-dice weapon gets a bead on you, anything with 4 THP or lower has a chance of being one-shot if the dice are against you (seriously, I've lost a Phantom this way). The rebels have this far less due most of their popular ships being THP 5 or higher, with a minimum of 2 of that THP being shields. They'll be able to survive the range 3 exchange (the hardest non-turret arc to dodge) of a 3-dice attack even in the worst case scenario.

... no, wait, that's not entirely true. A 3-dice attack from a Doomshuttle can still one-two X-wings. But aside from that, a 3-dice attack won't kill anything with at least 3 hull and 2 shields. Which most popular rebel fighters do.

That's part of the reason why the swarm was born in the first place. It mitigates much of the risk of losing ships early on due to bad dice rolls.

 

I wouldn't argue with the prospect that Interceptors are high-risk ships; I would argue about Phantoms, but that's a different conversation.

But I was responding to the idea that Imperial lists are more vulnerable to bad rolling, and that it's more likely to doom you as an Imperial list than as a Rebel list. It's true that bad rolls on defense with high-Agility ships will do that, but that's not what BigKahuna said--and, critically, it's by no means unique to the Empire. Completely setting aside the issue of A-wings and E-wings, which rely on their defense dice to justify their cost just as much as Interceptors and Phantoms, an X-wing can't be one-shotted but can be killed pretty quickly if it rolls poorly on defense.

Moreover, rolling badly on defense isn't the only thing that loses games. Rolling all blanks against an obstructed Range 3 attack with Fel is frustrating, but it has a 0.7% chance of happening--and the chances that you'll be killed by that shot are even lower. I've had a target-locked Range 1 shot with Wedge end up rolling 0 hits or crits, and not only is that just as frustrating, it's just as dangerous for your game in the long term (because now something's alive and much healthier than it ought to be... and if I'm flying Rebels it's probably about to shoot back).

Edited August 18, 2014 by Vorpal Sword

[Scizzler 112]

 

 

It takes more than a minute to play the game...  and you definitely can't play 5 games in just a minute unless your just that horrible at the game

"Nothing goes over my head, my reflexes are too fast!" 

A minute is a commonly used expression for "a while"

 

I've never heard it and i'm active on several international forums, where in the world is it common?

 

It's an english slang idiom most commonly referred to as a "hot minute"

Edited August 18, 2014 by Scizzler

[YwingAce 2,546]

But an x-wing can be oneshotted...... Phantom rolls 2 hits, and 2 crits, X-wing rolls 0. Draws 2 Direct hits........

[Gadge 4,294]

yeah i've heard a 'minute' used to sort of pass off as 'a while but a minute compared to you chaps'

 

definitely a phrase in the UK in some areas at least.

[dotswarlock 2,419]

Luke: "the 360 degree arc of the Falcon... Are the rebel ships stronger?"
Yoda: "No, no, no. Quicker, easier, more seductive."

 

 

[GodlessMimicry 172]

I've been playing this game for a minute now and it really seems like the rebels are simply better. Superior shields almost all around. 360 degree arcs with the falcon. Astromechs. Every time I play imperial I get smoked by them I have a 1-4 win rate as imperial and I'm not lacking content. I have everything but the tie bomber and shuttle. The only time I win is when I just do a tie swarm with howlrunner and in my eyes is the only thing they have going for them and that's what everyone runs in tournaments Maybe I'm just missing some huge part of the game. But basically I'm only going to play rebels from now on.

 

Your loss. Judging the game's balance with such little experience is not a good idea. Add in the plethora of other factors to this equation, such as your lists, your flying, your playstyle, your opponent's lists, flying and playstyle; you clearly are not looking at the overall picture here IMO.

[Gadge 4,294]

To the OP

 

Practice and play with high PS interceptors, especially with either 'ptl' or with the guy who give you a free post shoot boost

 

I had that character run rings around a 4X build on vassal the other day.

 

(note like 'a minute' ... 'the other day' does not litterally in the uk mean 'yesterday' it's anything up to a week or so ago. )

[YwingAce 2,546]

That would be Baron Fel for PtL guy, and Turr Phennir for boosty. (know you EU pilots!! :lol:)

[FTS Gecko 23,148]

See, I'm borderline thinking that the Rebel ships are simply worse.

 

Oh, they're easy to get the hang of.  They're forgiving.  The have shields, they have turrets... but in terms of speed, agility, movement shenanigans and indeed points efficiency, the Empire's ships outclass them almost every single time.

[Gadge 4,294]

That would be Baron Fel for PtL guy, and Turr Phennir for boosty. (know you EU pilots!! :lol:)

 

 

I've got chronic insomnia so i'm on sleeping tablets at the mo, i've just woke up recently n(last couple of hours anyway)  and still feel half asleep...  you'll see that most my posts are horrifically typo ridden today.  I just couldnt remember who was who and more importantly bother to check

 

Probably time to put the kettle on and actually get out of bed.

 

The joys of being and editor and being able to work from home! 

[BigKahuna 731]

 

 

 

Also if you want to get Mathwing about it, statistically speaking you are more likely to lose a match because of bad rolling with Imperials then you are with Rebels...

That's not true, and I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion.

 

Fell getting one-shot at range 3 through an asteroid is hardly a rare story to hear.

That's the key part of the high-risk, high-reward playstyle of Imperial fighters like the Interceptor and Phantom. Their low hull means that as soon as someone with a 3-dice weapon gets a bead on you, anything with 4 THP or lower has a chance of being one-shot if the dice are against you (seriously, I've lost a Phantom this way). The rebels have this far less due most of their popular ships being THP 5 or higher, with a minimum of 2 of that THP being shields. They'll be able to survive the range 3 exchange (the hardest non-turret arc to dodge) of a 3-dice attack even in the worst case scenario.

... no, wait, that's not entirely true. A 3-dice attack from a Doomshuttle can still one-two X-wings. But aside from that, a 3-dice attack won't kill anything with at least 3 hull and 2 shields. Which most popular rebel fighters do.

That's part of the reason why the swarm was born in the first place. It mitigates much of the risk of losing ships early on due to bad dice rolls.

 

I wouldn't argue with the prospect that Interceptors are high-risk ships; I would argue about Phantoms, but that's a different conversation.

But I was responding to the idea that Imperial lists are more vulnerable to bad rolling, and that it's more likely to doom you as an Imperial list than as a Rebel list. It's true that bad rolls on defense with high-Agility ships will do that, but that's not what BigKahuna said--and, critically, it's by no means unique to the Empire. Completely setting aside the issue of A-wings and E-wings, which rely on their defense dice to justify their cost just as much as Interceptors and Phantoms, an X-wing can't be one-shotted but can be killed pretty quickly if it rolls poorly on defense.

Moreover, rolling badly on defense isn't the only thing that loses games. Rolling all blanks against an obstructed Range 3 attack with Fel is frustrating, but it has a 0.7% chance of happening--and the chances that you'll be killed by that shot are even lower. I've had a target-locked Range 1 shot with Wedge end up rolling 0 hits or crits, and not only is that just as frustrating, it's just as dangerous for your game in the long term (because now something's alive and much healthier than it ought to be... and if I'm flying Rebels it's probably about to shoot back).

 

 

If we are talking straight math their really is no room for opinions, we are talking statistics here.  Attack Dice roll more hits then defense dice roll evades and imperial ships have less attack dice then rebel ships.  I'm not sure how that could be disputed.  

 

I mean take a 12 point Z95 vs. a Tie Fighter with 12 points.  In a straight up rolling match the Z95 will win the majority of the time.  The only thing that can change those statistic is player skill (maneuvering).  If you took equal point ships and matched them up this way it would be true in pretty much every category.  This is just a statistical fact.

 

The reason why Rebels are less likely to be affected by bad rolling is because they have shields.  So for example if a Tie fighter shoots with 3 dice and gets 3 hits at a Z95 who rolls blanks, the Z95 will survive.  If the same happen in reverse, the Tie would explode.  But its statistically more likely that the Tie fighter will roll 3 blanks on 3 defense dice, then it is that a Z95 will roll 3 blanks on 3 attack dice.  Yet the impact of these results is greater on the Tie Fighter.

 

This is true pretty much across the board.  Take any amount of points and compare any other ships using the same method and it will almost always be true.

 

Also consider that shields ignore critical hits, hulls do not, which makes it more likely that imperial ships which largely don't have shields will be affected by criticals.

 

I still think Imperials are the better faction in the hands of a skilled player (by a small margin, but still), but when if you remove skill and make it a math problem, Rebels are both more likely to win and less likely to be affected by bad rolling.

[BigKahuna 731]

 

 

Moreover, rolling badly on defense isn't the only thing that loses games

I didn't suggest that, I'm saying statistically more likely because evade dice are less likely to roll evades then attack dice are to roll hits.  More then that however because imperial ships use hulls for defense rather then shields (and typically have less hit points all together and fewer attack dice) the result is that its more likely that imperial ships are affected by bad rolling streaks.  Which is not to suggest it doesn't happen to rebel players (im sure we have all had our share of terrible streaks) but your less likely to lose a match because of statistically normal bad rolling (a few times in a match) as a rebel player then you are as a imperial player.

 

That's all I'm saying.

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

If we are talking straight math their really is no room for opinions, we are talking statistics here.  Attack Dice roll more hits then defense dice roll evades and imperial ships have less attack dice then rebel ships.  I'm not sure how that could be disputed.

I'm not disputing it; I'm saying it's irrelevant.

 

I mean take a 12 point Z95 vs. a Tie Fighter with 12 points.  In a straight up rolling match the Z95 will win the majority of the time.

Yes, it will, but because it shoots first--not because of anything about dice.

 

If you took equal point ships and matched them up this way it would be true in pretty much every category.  This is just a statistical fact.

Since your assertion that the Z-95 will typically win isn't a statistical one but rather a question of pilot skill, I'm not sure how you get from there to "This is just a statistical fact."

 

The reason why Rebels are less likely to be affected by bad rolling is because they have shields.  So for example if a Tie fighter shoots with 3 dice and gets 3 hits at a Z95 who rolls blanks, the Z95 will survive.  If the same happen in reverse, the Tie would explode.  But its statistically more likely that the Tie fighter will roll 3 blanks on 3 defense dice, then it is that a Z95 will roll 3 blanks on 3 attack dice.  Yet the impact of these results is greater on the Tie Fighter.

First, the scenario you're describing has nothing to do with shields; if the Headhunter had 4 hull, the outcome would be the same. Second, it's still irrelevant to your original point--that the Empire is more vulnerable to bad luck than the Rebels.

What you're describing is indeed a commonly accepted principle about the game's math: a ship's overall expected durability is the product of its points and a coefficient determined by its Agility value. The higher the Agility, the more the ship relies on consistent defensive results to meet your expectations for what it will accomplish.

But that's not really true in general, because you can get out of that trap by having lots of hit points. The more hull and shields you have, the more you can count on the Law of Large Numbers to work in your favor; if you have enough of a cushion, one bad roll won't kill you, and because those bad events are relatively rare, your overall defensive performance will be more like the a priori expectation.

So what's actually happening isn't that the Empire is particularly vulnerable to bad luck, but that TIE Fighters and TIE Interceptor--which have high Agility and low total hit points--are vulnerable to bad luck on defense.

 

Also consider that shields ignore critical hits, hulls do not, which makes it more likely that imperial ships which largely don't have shields will be affected by criticals.

There are three Imperial ships with no shields, out of nine ships total. That isn't really "largely".

 

Moreover, rolling badly on defense isn't the only thing that loses games

I didn't suggest that...

You didn't suggest that in the claim I'm discussing, but you haven't discussed attack dice at all.

 

...I'm saying statistically more likely because evade dice are less likely to roll evades then attack dice are to roll hits.

Again, the fact that attack dice have more successes than defense dice is irrelevant, because your original claim isn't comparing attack dice to defense dice--it's comparing Rebel use of attack dice to Imperial use of attack dice, and the same for defense dice.

 

More then that however because imperial ships use hulls for defense rather then shields (and typically have less hit points all together and fewer attack dice) the result is that its more likely that imperial ships are affected by bad rolling streaks.  Which is not to suggest it doesn't happen to rebel players (im sure we have all had our share of terrible streaks) but your less likely to lose a match because of statistically normal bad rolling (a few times in a match) as a rebel player then you are as a imperial player.

 

Again: three Imperial ships without shields, versus six Imperial ships with shields. Even if I spot you the TIE Advanced and remove it from the total, that's just 37.5%.

 

That's all I'm saying.

The reason I'm bothering to address this at all is because there's an attitude I've noticed among some Imperial players on this board that Rebels are somehow "easy mode", and that if you're looking for a real challenge you fly Imperial ships. (This idea somehow coexists with the fact that the Empire has, to put it mildly, been demonstrated to be somewhat more effective in major tournaments.)

The OP flatters that conceit, and so does your assertion that the Empire is more vulnerable to bad dice. So I think it's important to point out that the Empire has strengths and weaknesses just like the Rebellion does, and to push back against the idea that Rebel ships and/or players have an advantage.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Vorpal Sword

[oddeye 560]

Vorpal, you qouted so many people, the forums wouldn't let me qoute you since it reached the max number of qoutes possible in a single post.

 

You get the award for the most qoutes in a post.. where did that FFG forum user award post go... haha.

 

[keroko 492]

I have to disagree with the dismissal of shields. The potential to ignore a crit or two is an invaluable defence that can prevent anything from severely hamstringing your ship to outright destroying it. A Z-95 can take a double-crit without any problem. A TIE has a good chance of seeing his ship irreparably crippled, if not outright blown up. Baring shield ignoring cards like Proton Bombs, shields matter in any scenario.

Edited August 18, 2014 by keroko

[Vorpal Sword 14,685]

I have to disagree with the dismissal of shields. The potential to ignore a crit or two is an invaluable defence that can prevent anything from severely hamstringing your ship to outright destroying it. A Z-95 can take a double-crit without any problem. A TIE has a good chance of seeing his ship irreparably crippled, if not outright blown up. Baring shield ignoring cards like Proton Bombs, shields matter in any scenario.

I'm not dismissing shields (assuming this was aimed at me); I'm saying that lack of shields isn't a problem for the Imperial faction as a whole, because you can easily build an Imperial list where every ship has shields.

[VanorDM 11,599]

Haven't read everything...

But I will point out for every "Rebels are better" you will see a post saying that "Imperials are better". Which IMO is proof of the balance.

[13713 132]

 

I have to disagree with the dismissal of shields. The potential to ignore a crit or two is an invaluable defence that can prevent anything from severely hamstringing your ship to outright destroying it. A Z-95 can take a double-crit without any problem. A TIE has a good chance of seeing his ship irreparably crippled, if not outright blown up. Baring shield ignoring cards like Proton Bombs, shields matter in any scenario.

I'm not dismissing shields (assuming this was aimed at me); I'm saying that lack of shields isn't a problem for the Imperial faction as a whole, because you can easily build an Imperial list where every ship has shields.

 

 

This is true. Since I started not to long ago I have been playing Phantoms non stop. Shields are our friends.

 

I have always thought the Rebels as more of a swiss army knife of sorts and the Imperials as glass cannons. Different enough in playstyle that one is not generally better than the other, they just each fill niches. 

[Tanarri 144]

I may have been one of the people who implied rebels are easy mode a few times. In my defense if I didn't say it at the time I meant to say at lower skill levels it is easier to be decent/good with rebels then imperials. You can give a beginner an x-wing, a falcon, or a b-wing and they do quite well with them. The same could probably be said for the firespray but I haven't given it to some one I was teaching the game to so I can't be sure. What I also should have said, which I may not have is that they are just as hard to truly master as empire ships. So if I have contributed to this at all I apologize.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Tanarri

[ryanabt 1,188]

I might add that the problem for imperials is a problem of choice. The stylistic benefits of imperial ships are choice. They have tools that give options. If used poorly, those choices can get you killed. If you choose evade instead of barrel rolling out of arc, you made a mistake that might get you killed.

Rebels in general have fewer choice giving tools as far as getting out of danger go; however, they have more choices for buffing type effects.

[dandirk 232]

 

Enough said...

[DAWHIPPA 5]

I might add that the problem for imperials is a problem of choice. The stylistic benefits of imperial ships are choice. They have tools that give options. If used poorly, those choices can get you killed. If you choose evade instead of barrel rolling out of arc, you made a mistake that might get you killed.

Rebels in general have fewer choice giving tools as far as getting out of danger go; however, they have more choices for buffing type effects.

plenty of the rebel ships can barrel roll and boost too. And with the new rebel aces coming out soon I can only imagine them getting better