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Knucklesamwich

For those Tie Advanced players, I am fixing my ship

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I have thought many times about what to do to make the not so "advanced" feel advanced. I am considering making my own "Tie Advanced only" modification for use in my casual games.

Redirect Power

Tie Advanced only

At the start of the activation phase you may choose to redirect power to your primary weapon and increase by one attack dice and decrease your agility by one evade dice.

Zero point cost.

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Sounds cool to me, have to see it played a few times.

 

I think the problem is, as others have said that what makes the 'tie advance' *advanced* in backstory is that it has shields and a hyperdrive.

 

Clearly the hyperdrive has no real function in the game.

 

Maybe a game rule that lets ships with hyperdrive drop into the board after the games beginning would help?  You'd need to slightly randomise this a bit with say a scatter dice to make it a risk but it could be good for outflanking people...

 

then again nearly every rebel fighter can 'jump' so it might just end up being silly.

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So the solution to the TIE advanced is to make it an x-wing with a free option to sacrifice firepower for agility on turns when it can't shoot anything?

 

other way round surely, you're directing fire *to* the guns not away so what it does is give you a cannons boost but means if anyone can shoot back you're vulnerable?

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So many fun ideas and solutions through house ruling ..

The tie advanced idea is cool. Similar to what could be done in xwing and tie fighter the PC games. Redirecting your power to what system is most needed.

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So many fun ideas and solutions through house ruling ..

The tie advanced idea is cool. Similar to what could be done in xwing and tie fighter the PC games. Redirecting your power to what system is most needed.

Nail on the head! That game was my inspiration for the idea as my buddy and I were talking on the way home from gencon.

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I have thought many times about what to do to make the not so "advanced" feel advanced. I am considering making my own "Tie Advanced only" modification for use in my casual games.

Redirect Power

Tie Advanced only

At the start of the activation phase you may choose to redirect power to your primary weapon and increase by one attack dice and decrease your agility by one evade dice.

Zero point cost.

Okay, that turns it into an X-wing for the turn. It's basically Expose without the action cost, and we know a lot about how Expose works. So here are my questions:

(1) Is this enough to fix the Advanced? That is, will a Tenpest Squadron Pilot + Redirect Power be a viable choice in your at-home games?

(2) Is this too much to fix the Advanced? That is, does it make Vader overly powerful? What happens if it's combined with Opportunist or Expose? Should it be priced at 0, or is it worth a bump of 1-2 points?

(3) Is it distinct? That is, the design space around Imperial ships with 3 Attack is pretty crowded. Is an Advanced at 3/2/3/2 sufficiently different from other Imperial options, and is it clearly a better or worse choice than an Interceptor with a Hull Upgrade?

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I have thought many times about what to do to make the not so "advanced" feel advanced. I am considering making my own "Tie Advanced only" modification for use in my casual games.

Redirect Power

Tie Advanced only

At the start of the activation phase you may choose to redirect power to your primary weapon and increase by one attack dice and decrease your agility by one evade dice.

Zero point cost.

Okay, that turns it into an X-wing for the turn. It's basically Expose without the action cost, and we know a lot about how Expose works. So here are my questions:

(1) Is this enough to fix the Advanced? That is, will a Tenpest Squadron Pilot + Redirect Power be a viable choice in your at-home games?

(2) Is this too much to fix the Advanced? That is, does it make Vader overly powerful? What happens if it's combined with Opportunist or Expose? Should it be priced at 0, or is it worth a bump of 1-2 points?

(3) Is it distinct? That is, the design space around Imperial ships with 3 Attack is pretty crowded. Is an Advanced at 3/2/3/2 sufficiently different from other Imperial options, and is it clearly a better or worse choice than an Interceptor with a Hull Upgrade?

Astromechs on the x-wing make it much better then the advanced already for the same point cost. This balances it in my opinion

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Obligatory post, here's my house rule:

 

Title. TIE Advanced only.

Cost: -1 (Vader) / -2 (others)

After you perform an attack, you may acquire a target lock on the defender.

 

 

TL;DR MathWing justification:

  • TIE Advanced is overcosted by 4 points.
  • -2 cost and a free FCS is about 4 points.
  • It makes TIE Advanced the preferred platform for Cluster Missiles (which has its own issues, but 1 thing at a time).
  • It's more than just a TIE Fighter with 2 shields.
  • Darth Vader gets his cost retroactively tweaked, to encourage use of the other pilots.
Radarman5, quasistellar and shaner like this

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What if you just played it with the interceptor dial?  It was supposed to be the ship the interceptor was based on, after all.   

 

Given that great dial, I think the advanced would be played more often.

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What if you just played it with the interceptor dial?  It was supposed to be the ship the interceptor was based on, after all.   

 

Given that great dial, I think the advanced would be played more often.

That's an interesting idea and would be fun to try.

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What if you just played it with the interceptor dial?  It was supposed to be the ship the interceptor was based on, after all.   

 

Given that great dial, I think the advanced would be played more often.

 

NA. The TIE Advanced is overcosted by 4 points. Way too large of a deficit to make up with merely adding a couple greens onto whites, and adding hard 1 turns.

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The TIE advanced cost about 3-4 points too much so the most simple fix is to just lower its point value. No need for unnecessar and complicated fixes other than that. Of course, to make it a bit more special you could go with something like Majorjuggler suggested. Still simple to implement and avoids all the pitfalls that complex homebrew wishlisting usually digs itself far too deep in.

Edited by MacrossVF1
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The dial is about 1/3 of the problem. We're going to have to see a generic with an EPT and some other love to see this thing fly- low attack, high cost, poor dial... I think the bunch of prototype titles and a generic with an EPT (and the new REBELS inquisitor pilot) will come but will it be enough?

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I don't like just reducing cost because we have seen that already. I think my idea is unique and fits in well. Maybe give a third option of adding some green maneuvers as a choice instead of the extra attack dice kind if like redirecting power to the engines or weapons.

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What if you just played it with the interceptor dial?  It was supposed to be the ship the interceptor was based on, after all.   

 

Given that great dial, I think the advanced would be played more often.

 

NA. The TIE Advanced is overcosted by 4 points. Way too large of a deficit to make up with merely adding a couple greens onto whites, and adding hard 1 turns.

I do not buy your 4 points. Not at all. That puts it at 1 point more than the Bomber, and point less than the Interceptor. 1 point for that agility is a steal. At most it is 2 points overcosted. I get your calculations, but you have to look at theoretical balance points. It isn' meant to be as stats efficient as a tie fighter, it has other factors too.

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I have thought many times about what to do to make the not so "advanced" feel advanced. I am considering making my own "Tie Advanced only" modification for use in my casual games.

Redirect Power

Tie Advanced only

At the start of the activation phase you may choose to redirect power to your primary weapon and increase by one attack dice and decrease your agility by one evade dice.

Zero point cost.

Okay, that turns it into an X-wing for the turn. It's basically Expose without the action cost, and we know a lot about how Expose works. So here are my questions:

(1) Is this enough to fix the Advanced? That is, will a Tenpest Squadron Pilot + Redirect Power be a viable choice in your at-home games?

(2) Is this too much to fix the Advanced? That is, does it make Vader overly powerful? What happens if it's combined with Opportunist or Expose? Should it be priced at 0, or is it worth a bump of 1-2 points?

(3) Is it distinct? That is, the design space around Imperial ships with 3 Attack is pretty crowded. Is an Advanced at 3/2/3/2 sufficiently different from other Imperial options, and is it clearly a better or worse choice than an Interceptor with a Hull Upgrade?

Astromechs on the x-wing make it much better then the advanced already for the same point cost. This balances it in my opinion

That's not an answer to any of my questions, though. Your fix passes the initial sniff test, so it's time to start thinking how it interacts with pilot abilities and upgrades, and indirectly, how it interacts with other ships--how does an Advanced with your fix fit in the rest of the faction?

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What if you just played it with the interceptor dial?  It was supposed to be the ship the interceptor was based on, after all.   

 

Given that great dial, I think the advanced would be played more often.

 

NA. The TIE Advanced is overcosted by 4 points. Way too large of a deficit to make up with merely adding a couple greens onto whites, and adding hard 1 turns.

I do not buy your 4 points. Not at all.

 

 

It is what it is.
 
 
  • The stat line value of 2/3/3/2 is worth almost exactly 16 points at PS1.
  • That's 17 points at PS2.
  • 21 points (current cost) - 17 points = 4 points
  • The rest of the TIE Advanced's capabilities are a complete wash compared to the standard TIE Fighter, so the above math holds for total ship value.
 
 

That puts it at 1 point more than the Bomber

 

1 point for that agility is a steal. 

 

And that 1 point is exactly where it should be. The 1 point for the extra agility is not a steal. The bomber's stat line of 2/2/6/0 is worth around 14.5 points. The bomber's remaining 0.5 points of relative value is made up by being able to carry an absurd amount of ordnance. Currently ordnance isn't cost effective, but that is a separate issue.
 
Next.
 

and point less than the Interceptor.

 

At most it is 2 points overcosted.

 

The Interceptor is 18 points at PS1. The TIE Advanced's value is 17 points at PS2, or 16 points at PS1. Adjusted for PS, the TIE Advanced should cost 2 less than the PS1 Alpha Squadron Pilot. I guess you want them to cost the same.
 
Starting at a baseline of 17 points at PS1, what would you rather have?
  1. +1 PS, +77% boost to durability, Target Lock. Slightly poorer dial than the TIE Fighter.
  2. +1 cost, +76% increase to attack power, boost action, nearly the best dial in the game.
+1 PS vs +1 cost is essentially +2 points in favor of the TIE Advanced (16 point PS1 adjusted cost vs 18 points for the TIE Interceptor). The increase in durability vs attack are mathematically a wash, but preference is usually given to attack in this game due to the way that target priority works. So you're paying 2 points for maneuverability (dial + boost) and to shift the buff to attack rather than defense. That's a pretty fair trade.
 
Now lets use your math, reducing the cost of the TIE Advanced by (at most) 2 points. Starting at a baseline of 18 points at PS1, you now have the choice of:
  1. +1 cost, +1 PS, +77% boost to durability, Target Lock. Slightly poorer dial than the TIE Fighter.
  2. +76% increase to attack power, boost action, nearly the best dial in the game.
+1 cost and +1 PS on the Advanced is a wash, so the two ships cost the same (19 points at PS2 vs 18 points at PS1). Nobody is ever going to choose #2. Therefore, the TIE Advanced is still overcosted at 19 points by this metric. You do not even need to do in-depth MathWing, it is clearly obvious that the TIE Advanced is overcosted by more than 2 points using your own comparisons.
 
 

I get your calculations

 

I'm not convinced that you completely do, given that your conclusion of max 2 points overcosted fails a basic sniff-test...

 

you have to look at theoretical balance points. It isn' meant to be as stats efficient as a tie fighter, it has other factors too.

 

What "other factors" does the TIE Advanced have? Dial? Nope. Target Lock? Nope, that about cancels with the dial being worse than the standard TIE Fighter. Shields? Nope - that's already included in the MathWing jousting value of 16. That's the whole difference between the TIE Advanced and the TIE Fighter. There are literally zero other factors hiding in the mystical ether, so I don't know what points your are grasping at here...

 

Agreed on not making the TIE Advanced simply the same stats efficiency as the TIE Fighter. That's why my suggestion is to add a "soft" 2 point buff in the form of a free Fire Control System, as a "sweetener". The stat line efficiency increases from 80.7% as it currently stands (21 points at PS2), to 89.3% (19 points at PS2). That's still lower than the X-wing's stat line efficiency at 91.8%. The TIE Advanced would probably get a slight edge over the X-wing in overall efficiency with the free FCS, but that's not surprising and is actually a good thing, given that generic X-wing pilot usage in wave 4 is nearly extinct with the existence of more efficient ships. (B-wings and Z-95s).
Edited by MajorJuggler

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I have thought many times about what to do to make the not so "advanced" feel advanced. I am considering making my own "Tie Advanced only" modification for use in my casual games.

Redirect Power

Tie Advanced only

At the start of the activation phase you may choose to redirect power to your primary weapon and increase by one attack dice and decrease your agility by one evade dice.

Zero point cost.

 

That's one option. I've been tinkering with a couple others:

 

A)

Tie Advanced Only - Gun Pods.

Fits into the missile slot. Add 1 attack dice. Cost: 0/1?

 

B) Tie Advanced Only - Extended Ordnance Pods.

Missiles are only discarded after their second use. Cost: 0/1?

 

Basically, everyone agrees that the Advanced needs more offensive power. I don't think a "Chardaan Refit" fix will do much to make the Advanced more tasty.

Edited by Urrgok

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I say, give it the ability to attack a ship it has a target lock on twice, and run it with the tie fighter dial.

Luckily what I say doesn't matter.

Edited by Ravncat

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You forgot to account for the fact that the Advanced looks cooler than the regular TIE. Voila, there's your mystical 2 points.

You gotta admit, this man has a point! It is my favorite ship design for the imperials.

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